Interesting. Don't have a clue, but i've got all my apples bagged and so far, so good. A couple bags were almost half full of water and i had to clip the corners (I had forgot to on some of them).

How do you like that Liberty apple? That seems to be a very trouble free apple from what i have read. I'm tempted to rip out one of my apples (take some cuttings from it to graft) and put a Liberty or something else in its spot.

Hi franktank232-
Yeah, all my other bagged apples have always turned out good, so perhaps this is a fluke.
On the Liberty, I like it quite a bit. But, it depends on what you're comparing it too. If you're comparing it to a Mac or a Cortland, I actually think it's better. (At least a my local orchard, in the few years that I've got them). I've found it not to be immune to CAR, but indeed resistant.
If you talk to someone like Harvestman, he'll tell you that it really doesn't compare to a more complex apple like an Ashmed's Kernel. But, then again, I've never had an Ashmed's Kernel, so perhaps I'm happy in my ignorance!
My Williams Pride on the other hand is reported to taste great, and here in RI seems to be practically immune to everything. Without spraying, the leaves are 99% perfect on it. I'm looking forward to those in just a couple weeks.
Have a good one...
-Glenn

I would say codling moth. The nasty stuff comming out is frass. Thats my newbie guess :)

Hmm I might have to look into some of these scab resistant varities. My mac is a scabintosh this year. Was picking cherries at an orchard near me and was able to talk to the owner and he said it was the worse scab year he has seen.

Glenn:

Bagged apples do not guarantee 100% perfect fruit. But losses from all causes are nearly always less than 5%, whether it be from an insect that gets in, rot, or any other cause. Usually they are more in the 1-3% range.

When I notice a bagged apple that has developed a problem, I simply remove it and put the bag on a good apple elsewhere if one is available. It's the cost of doing business and nothing to be alarmed about.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi Jellyman-
Yeah, I know the bags aren't 100%. But, this was the first time I had anything besides an earwig inside (been lucky so far), so I was just curious of what it was. This bag had gotten pretty gross (as you can see in the picture), so I don't think I'd reuse this one! Thanks as always,
-Glenn

Hi Joe-il-
I did a quick Google image search, and I think you might be right. The Codling Moth images look very similar to what I saw. If no one else comes back with anything else, I think I'll go with that. Thanks for the info!
-Glenn

Yes, codling moth. And the brown stuff is frass.

Glenn:

Even the most conscientious baggers, guys just like you and me, can miss a little insect entry when we are installing the bags. The result can be what you are seeing.

I don't know about you, but for me bagging involves a lot of stretching, peering through leafy twigs and branches, while trying to separate the perfect apples in a cluster from their insect-damaged brothers and sisters. Much of this is done on a ladder. You can't always see both sides of an apple clearly, and running your fingers over it is not a 100% successful test either, though it can help.

That's why bagging does not always deliver 100% success. To get a perfect bagged apple you have to begin with a perfect apple.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi Glen
Jellyman hit it on the head. Sometimes we bag an apple with an egg already in or on the apple. Do a Google search on Kaolin Clay. Its organic. I have been using it and the Curculio is not a big problem for me anymore. That might be the Curculio in your bagged apple with the frass.

Looks like where CM enters (calyx) not PC. But CM tends to continue feeding around the entire seed cavity.

I usually look the apple over pretty good before I bag it, but I'm sure I just missed one. Now I know coddling moth is indeed a pest for me as well. Thanks for all the info! -Glenn

This is my first year bagging and I'm disappointed for a few reasons (but will try again next year). I posted some questions about this near the end of my message.

I have the same exact thing happening to my apples as in the photos. It has happened ever since we got the tree 5 years ago, and now it is happening inside many of the baggies. We have a second apple tree and two new pear trees with the same nasty invaders. I'd love to find out if it is due to coddling moth, plum curculio or both.

Earwigs have invaded some of the bags too :-(( They attack the top end by the stem.

Very heavy winds have knocked some bags off the tree. I zipped them up tight, ran my fingers back and forth until all snapping stopped.

QUESTIONS:
1) Should I spray the trees once or on a regular basis for the rest of the season, and would this help reduce the insect attacks next season?

2) If it helps to spray, is Sevin effective, and has anyone tried malathion? I was advised by the state of Colorado that malathion is the best insecticide to use on apple trees here.

3) Will the baggies keep the insecticide off the fruit?

4) Next year, would it hurt to bag the fruit earlier (smaller than the suggested size) when the fruit is very small, or is there a reason to wait until the fruit is a certain size? I'd love to bag it before any insects can lay eggs, etc.

Thanks!

Hi Laurie-

Sorry to hear your apples have been eaten. :-(

Even though I started this thread, keep in mind that more than 95% of my bagged apples are still pristine. Did you do a good job sealing the bag around the stem? (Someone just posted about using a hole punch to put a stem hole in the zipper... or cut a small 'V' in the zipper... I may try this on some next year) If you did seal well, it sounds to me insects got to your apples before the bag got on, like they did for me. Did you check the apples carefully before putting the bags on? In my case, I did indeed spray my apples during that short period after pedal fall and before I could put the bags on. I'll take a stab at your questions, but I'm still a newbie myself...

1.) I'd like to be backed up by an expert here, but I not sure that spraying would be worth it at this point, if you really don't have any apples to save. I think it would be more important to remove any insect riddled apples as soon as possible.

2.) Not really sure here, but I didn't think the Sevin had the staying power that's needed here? I think some people use Malathion, but I believe it's also harder to find a Malathion which is rated for fruit. I think some people use Permethrin, and simply ignore the "No spray after pedal fall" warning. There's also Imidan... But that's very hard core... and controversial. You might want to research using Triazicide. I may do the same.

3.) I believe that the baggies do prevent most of the insecticide from getting on the fruit.

4.) We actually talked about this recently on the forum. (I searched, but couldn't find the thread) There are a couple reasons why you wait: 1) So the bags can hang on nicely. 2.) You don't want to do extra work to bag apples that are going to be dropped during 'Dune drop' anyway. 3.) Some apples will have already been attacked anyway, or misshapen. You thin at this time to remove those apples and bag the pristine ones.

Hope this helps... -Glenn

The Spectricide Triazicide has worked great for me. I sprayed every 2 weeks during pc season and even with heavy rains seemed to work good. Very good control on pc

I havent seen any codling moth damage ..yet.

I've wondered if you spray and bag would the pesticide residue not break down by harvest?

Do the nylon footies not work well??

Joe

When did you apply your first spray? The PC here smoked my peaches pretty good. I think i've opened up at least 10 peaches and found plenty of PC larvae in them alive and well. Also have tossed another dozen that dropped and i'm sure it was because of PC. I'm not sure when the first spray should be applied here, but my guess is mid/late May?

Is there any point to removing apples that have frass coming out? Doesn't the frass mean the worms have "exited the building"?

Almost all my apples have frass despite the footies, I'd hate to lose my whole crop this year if I have to pull them.

Carla in Sac

Frank- May 15th was petal fall and sprayed bonide fts and
immunox on the 17th. This did nothing to the pc and they were running rampant. May 29th sprayed Spectracide. 2 weeks after petal fall Pc seemed to be at their peak. (for me) I could actually see them on the trees. The Spectracide/imm stopped the damage and I sprayed once more on the 13th of june. July 1st set sticky coke cans painted red out, and have not caught any moths or am. July 12 sprayed imidan and some leftover bonide fts for jap beetles.

Skipping a week of immunox spraying wasnt a good idea and developed scab.
I have all this wrote down on a calender so I can compare it to future years.
Next year I will follow hmans advice and spray oil/imm at tight cluster (think thats right) then do petal fall spray and 2 cover sprays. I may try the imidan over the spectracide, havent decided but nice to have that option in my arsenal.

My trees are old, planted in '78 by my father in law and n a good apple never came off of them. This year I decided to give apple growing a go. They have been breeding everything for 30 years lol. Mac & earliblaze also have jonathan and honeycrisp that I planted this year(bareroot)

Laurie,

Glen is correct. Once the CM or OFM larva enter the fruit, insecticides won't have any effect. Insecticides kill by contact, ingestion, or both. Once the larva is inside the fruit it is completely insulated from insecticide residues. Spraying your trees this year will likely have little effect on pest pressure next year, if there are neighbors with unsprayed trees. Their trees will produce an abundance of CM or OFM next year. One Codling moth can lay 70 eggs. If you have the only fruit trees around, picking up and discarding infected fruit to prevent larva pupation may reduce pest pressure next year. But keep in mind, unlike PC which has only one set of wings, Codling moth and Oriental Fruit moth have 2 sets of wings which enables them to fly much farther distances

Carla,

I'll give it to you straight up. If you see frass, those apples are toast. It is either CM or OFM. Generally OFM prefer prunus, but they will infest pomes, especially in orchards that grow both types of fruits. Sometimes the CM and OFM larva exit and find an adjacent fruit to infect, but frequently where you see frass they are right inside that fruit, eating the seeds. Even if they have exited the fruit, the fruit suffers so much damage, it doesn't ripen properly, even if it stays on the tree.

"Is there any point to removing apples that have frass coming out? Doesn't the frass mean the worms have "exited the building"?"

If they're CM, they have not necessarily left. CM often exit the apple with a nice, clean exit wound, away from the flower end, where the fras comes out. If you have footies on your apples, you can see the CM exit holes right thru the footies. They actually tear a small, visible hole in the nylon.

"Almost all my apples have frass despite the footies, I'd hate to lose my whole crop this year if I have to pull them."

It's a shame that footies are widely reported to *not* stop CM. Although I have found that CM doesn't necessarily mean an apple is no good. I use one of those round, segmented apples slicers to cut my apples for apple crisps, or for fresh eating sometimes. Any slice that looks OK I go ahead and use. Unfortunately, the storage potential of the apple is gone. They will rot in storage almost immediately.

Hi Carla-
I guess my question is, why are you using footies instead of baggies for apples? I was under the impression that footies worked better for peaches, baggies work better for apples.
-Glenn

Footies don't work reliably on anything; I have heard both successes and failures. They worked well on my apples the one year I used them but only so-so on peaches. I find cotton drawstring parts bags are the best bags for peaches. I am using them on some of my peaches this year. Their only downside is for peaches hugging the limb too much -- it is hard to get the top completely closed.

Scott

I have been told that Imidan penetrates and kills larvae inside the fruit by a pesticide salesman and I have reason to believe this might be correct, judging how often I see a little tunneling in plums but the seed still intact and no exit point. Unfortunately plum trees still reject such fruit, but I suspect apples do not. That said, it is still way to late to get any benefit with PC sprays in my opinion.

I was under the impression that apples aren't suitable for PC larvae? God knows where i read that, but i swear i did. They must be breeding some how. I know they love peaches... I found 3 larvae in one peach.

If you don't pick up your fallen fruit, you are in for huge trouble. I could just imagine how many pc larvae would be in the trees next year if i didn't throw out all my fallen fruit.

This is what my nice peaches end up with!!!
The "not good sign"
{{gwi:120872}}
The devil
{{gwi:120873}}
The next scene was too graphic for GW :)

I wonder if you could thin your apples very early to the "king" and bag then, if you would have any PC problems? You'd still need to spray with CAR, if that is an issue.

I'm going to get some of them cotton bags. How long do they last? Where do you buy them?

Frank, see link below for the bags I bought. You need to buy 500 minimum and they are pretty expensive. Some other sites sell by the 100 I think (try packcoinc.com). Unless the squirrels chew through them they can be reused. I have not reused them yet since I have a big enough supply - I have been stashing the used ones for future use but using new ones since I still have them.

I only heavily used them one year and that was several years ago, I have been trying to formulate a control program without bags. Now I am pulling them out due to bird predation which is larger than usual, and also to see how much they will help on the OFM.

One negative I should add about these bags is they take a bit of time to put on since the drawstring needs to be carefully pulled tight without pulling the fruit off. I am also tying "shoelace" knots on mine to the branch so the squirrels cannot pull them off.

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: parts bags

Thanks Glenn and Carla.

I'll look for the messages Glenn mentioned (about not bagging too early and about different ways to attach the baggies). It was good to hear that you have a lot of good fruit thanks to the baggies, Glenn.

The idea for perhaps starting to spray now was twofold:
a) To kill earwigs which continue to enter some of the baggies of the apples & pears that haven't been harmed by CM or PC.
b) To try to help next year's crop. From your replies, it sounds like spraying now won't help next year.

It is possible that some of the fruit had been invaded before I bagged.

My trees have very little fruit this year due to a spring freeze. The largest and oldest tree sprouted about 6 apples; the smaller apple tree had about 10. The new pear trees had about a dozen each.

How do I get the forum to send email notification of replies to this thread? I've done it with threads I started but don't see a way to do it with this thread. Thanks!

Laurie

Apples tend to crush PC larvae with their expanding cells unless the larvae do enough damage to cause fruit to drop. Nevertheless, any surviving apples that have killed all comers pay for the victory with deforming scar tissue that takes all the fun out of eating them when extensive.

I have to think that an insecticide like Imidan must have some ability to penetrate the apple or a 2-week spraying interval probably wouldn't be adequate. I don't think its kill power lasts much more than a week even when it doesn't rain hard.

Hman wrote:

"I have been told that Imidan penetrates and kills larvae inside the fruit by a pesticide salesman and I have reason to believe this might be correct, judging how often I see a little tunneling in plums but the seed still intact and no exit point."

Interesting Hman. However, I wonder if the salesman is slightly overstating the benefits of Imidan. The reason I say that, is that I've never heard Imidan has any systemic value. Even systemic products, Assail and Actara, both of which I use, don't have systemic action on the fruit, only on the foliage. I've read, Imidan is highly toxic to various orchard insect pests, even at low rates. I wonder if this accounts for the effective control seen, even at extended spray intervals? As you've mentioned, Imidan has great weathering capabilities. I suspect this might this be it's real value in controlling PC, CM, and OFM.

Not a systemic affect I'm talking about just seeping into small openings in the fruit.

Hman,

I ran across this from the latest Michigan CAT alert. It concerns blueberries, but would seem to apply to other fruits. The writer seems to imply that pyrethroids and organophosphates can control larvae already in the fruit, but only if they migrate from one fruit to another.

"In some cases, a delayed application of Danitol (synthetic pyrethroid with a powerful knockout effect) was able to kill cranberry fruitworms that were already in the fruit. These worms were affected by the insecticide when they tried to move from one berry to another. This effect is similar to that produced by Guthion. In those cases, the Danitol application prevented further fruit damage."

For the complete aritcle, see the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: CAT alert for Grand Rapids area