Round Up, or any other glyphosate product, is not acceptable to an organic grower. Contrary to what many people think, these products are not as innocuous as the, very limited, research seems to indicate. The manufacturers of these products are not, at this time, required by the pesticde regulators to test the product as is sold, they test only the "active" ingrediant for hazards to humans and are allowed to bypass testing the inert ingrediants, on humans, if those are GAAS products and they all are. However, combined with the glyphosate, they produce something far worse than either alone which all involved in regulating these products are ignoring, at this time.

Now after doing some research, I understand it is not that bad after it has dried and if used properly. We don't grow for resale, only for personal use. Any advise is much appreciated.

What kind of advise are you looking for? I can't think of any way to define organic growing where RoundUp would be considered 'kosher'. Certainly it can be a real time/labor saver and I would agree with your research that when used according to instructions it isn't the worst thing out there.

It's a legal product and each person has to decide for themselves whether the product is acceptable to them or if the company behind it (Monsanto) is acceptable to support.

On the organic forum the answer pretty much has to be 'no', but we are just gardeners, not organic police ;)

I agree with JAG - RoundUp cannot be considered an appropriate product for organic gardening any way you look at it. But that aside, it does have benefits and there may very well be times when you feel the need overrides its drawbacks. It's a matter of personal choice as to how dogmatically organic you wish to be in your own garden and for your own purposes.

And I'd hasten to say that both RoundUp and its active ingredient have undergone extensive testing over the years - because of its widespread use and popularity, this is one of the most heavily tested of any currently available registered pesticides by groups all over the environmental safety spectrum. Of course the published results will be tempered according to specific philosophy - that's a given even with very highly controlled scientific studies - you get results that confirm your hypothesis. When used responsibly and according to label directions, it is a relatively benign product that breaks down in the soil rapidly with no long term harmful effects.

These are from the EPA website linked below, "Short-term: EPA has found glyphosate to potentially cause the following health effects when people are exposed to it at levels above the MCL for relatively short periods of time: congestion of the lungs; increased breathing rate.

Long-term: Glyphosate has the potential to cause the following effects from a lifetime exposure at levels above the MCL: kidney damage, reproductive effects."

Here is a link that might be useful: EPA on glyphosates in the groundwater

My understanding is that exposure to Glyphosate while spraying is really dangerious. For instance, children or animals walking through freshly sprayed weeds. But after it has dried it is safe. Is that a safe assumtion? We use well water to drink (RO filtered) as well. So thank you for the groundwater link.

I'm not sure I would describe the situation as "really dangerous" :-) Glyphosate spray does pose the greatest threat to human contamination, to be sure (aside from actually drinking the stuff), but not necessarily to any greater extent than any other sprayed pesticide, even a good many so-called organic ones. The simple fact is that pesticides of any type are intended to kill - that's what the 'cide' means at the end of the word. While most are targeted towards specific organisms, there is likely to be some collateral damage to non-targeted organisms as well. More so with some substances, less so with others.

As with virtually any pesticide, whatever harmful effects might be present are more of a concern to children and pets simply because of their smaller stature, metabolism and often, not well-developed autoimmune systems. They just tend to be more vulnerable. And less aware of or able to avoid contact with the substance. The same type of concern exists with products as apparently innocuous as lawn weed & feed products. There are actually more documented accidental poisonings of kids or family pets with this product than there is with RoundUp/glyphosate. And a lot less of a fuss about its use.

Glyphosate has relatively low mobility in the soil....it is not inclined to leach excessively because of its chemical composition and how it is adsorbed by soil particles. This will vary by soil type, obviously. Spraying the product during wet weather or immediately preceding a rain storm or irrigating will increase the product's tendency to leach - it also is counterproductive to the purpose intended, so common sense would tell you to avoid using it at those times.

But the bottom line is that the infrequent use of RoundUp by homeowners, applied only according to label directions, poses very little threat to the environment or to themselves, their family or their pets. And yes, to be on the safe side, allow the product to dry before letting the troops loose :-) I'd advocate using the foam formulation, as this is very specific as to its target, much more so than the spray and with no chance of drift or accidental inhalation.

And do not take this as an endorsement of the product - it is NOT. Whenever possible, I would avoid using any pesticide, organic or synthetic - in favor of any other, entirely natural approach, like manual removal of any weeds, smothering, even torching. Or the use of beneficial insects or disease-resistant plant selections. Chemicals - from whatever source - should be used as a last resort. It's just that so much misinformation and scare-mongering gets thrown out about products like RoundUp, I think it's helpful to present a middle of the road view.

I used to do reveg work with a gal who drank an ounce of 18% RoundUp. She is alive to this day and still cancer-free. Now it may be that later she'll get the standard diseases we all get from exposure to an industrial society.

And I just returned from Eastern WA where I helped friends with their property and greenhouse, and an organic grower nearby is having a heckuva time with their weed control, as vinegar is only having ~50% mortality rate - this, of course, means even stronger weeds overall.

Lastly, a recent MoJo dedicated an issue to food and food policies, and the conclusion was something different than what we want to hear.

The bottom line: RoundUp is not organic, but if you can't get your weeds under control, the alternatives - rototilling much and releasing carbon, hand-pulling and releasing yourself from other commitments due to your time being eaten away, or spraying is the alternative solution set. You have a choice: weeds or external impacts.

Dan

Corn Gluten, newspaper, a scuffle hoe, a weed hound, and persistence will get you very far with weeds

Dan, now have that gal drink a ounce of roundup every month for decades.

Then again, my grandfather's been smoking since he was 12 and he's 85, so it might not do anything. But poison is poison

We know that many reefs, the nurseries of many peoples foods, are dying because of the silting of water from erosion and the pollutants we are releasing into the water and air. Anyone that believes that what they do on their small piece of the earth does not affect someone elses small piece of the earth is not paying attention.
None of the glyphosate products are acceptable to any oganic gardener for that reason.

Sheet composting (also known as lasagna gardening) an area has been really effective for just smothering the weeds. You basically put down a quarter to half an inch layer of wet newspaper, followed by layers of organic materials that you would normally put in a compost bin (wet leaves, manure, straw), up to at least 6 inches and let it sit for a few months. At the end you have amazing black soil and all of the weeds have been rotted and composted. You don't even have to turn it while it composts. Great soil and no poisons. That's win-win.

(The link below has pictures of the process at the bottom of what the soil looks like at the end. Tell me you're not jealous of that! Well, since my blog has a .com, and I don't want violate the businesses forum clause- even though I'm not a business, just a blogger, you can google Wisdom of the Moon Lasagna gardening 2008 if you're interested in seeing pictures of what it looks like.)

And yes, I agree with everyone else. Round up is not appropriate for organic gardens; it is still a poison. But then again we're not the garden police, so you've gotta do what you think is best.

I've never tried the Lasagna method for weed control. I wonder if anyone has used it successfully where nutsedge is alive and well. When I lived in Florida that stuff was horrible, if you parked you car in one spot too long the stuff could (almost) come up through your tire. A very effective way to deal with it without spraying was to turn hogs loose into the area so they could eat up all of the "nuts". Of course when the hogs were done, your work was just beginning, can you say, "exploded minefield"?

I know several people that have spent large amounts of their money on glyphosate products to control Yellow Nutsedge for several years now and still have it growing in their yards. To eliminate Yellow Nutsedge you need to understand how and where it grows and change those conditions, not spray with something that is helping kill the planet we live on.

The nutsedge I was refering to was in vegetable crop fields and roundup didn't work there either.

Disregarding the issue of Roundup being organic, the problem with a single application of Roundup on nutsedge not being effective lies in the fact that the plant has the "nut" that stores a lot of energy and a single application will not kill it in most cases. Enough of the glyphosate has to be translocated to the storage organ to kill it. Persistent perennial weeds like bermuda grass often require repeat applications to kill the entire underground structure of the plant.
I have read numerous threads recommending lasagna bed methods for bermuda grass control but I seriously doubt that they'd work. Bermuda grass is one tough plant and I've seen it send rhizomes several feet upward through piles of woodchips seeking sunlight. Mulch is only a temporary setback for that weed.

Round up is not a solution to nutsedge. It will not kill it. there are only a few products or chemicals that will kill it. Halosulforon-methyl is the best and it is definitely not for use in an organic setting. Nutsedge is very persistant and will even work it's way through 6-8" of compost or loose mulch once it is established. Best way to eradicate it is not to let it get established, and constantly pull it. The nuts will eventually use all stored nitrogen and eventually, die. RU is dangerous, and will cause skin burns and bronchial trouble to some immediately. Of course, the chances for serious problems come with repeated contact over time. I learned a ton about this recently as I was required to test for licensing to apply pesticides for my second job. There are some very scary things that you learn about pesticides in the process. TiMo

Round up is not a solution to nutsedge.

I'm not sure where this information comes from but it is not borne out by the scientific evidence. Various field trials have shown glyphosate to be an effective control for both yellow and purple nutsedge if applied at the correct time in the plant's lifecycle and under proper conditions. But it is not an organic control.....there is no way around that argument.

All pesticides - organic or synthetic - are scary in some fashion but what often makes them scary is also what typically makes them effective. It is a matter of weighing the benefits against the cost and determining how one wishes to proceed. FWIW, I also took pesticide training in order to receive a pesticide consultants license for my business.

Not sure if this falls into the realm of organic or not. But White Vinegar on a sunny day kills weeds. I use it all the time and have got some of my neighbors doing it as well after they saw the results.

Gallon vinegar $2 at cosco - put it in a sprayer and have fun.

And then I read this today. Here is a link, go figure. But what doesn't cause a problem these days.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monsanto's Herbicide Roundup Linked to Birth Defects

Hi Gardengal: my info. comes from experience in fields where it was allowed to become established. Repeated applications of RU for years in a row did significantly reduce the populations to tolerable levels but certainly did not eradicate it. Eradication was not the desired goal. And yes, those little "nuts", called "chufas" by the old timers in north Florida, are resiliant little buggers.

I had a commercial greenhouse pesticide applicators liscense until 1979. Boy that was fun spraying all suited up inside a hot greenhouse.

Dan, I find it very hard to believe that anyone in there right mind would drink anything like Round up! how has she fared with Weed Be Gone? or gasoline? why would she stop with just one poison... sorry I just can't buy that anyone that is sane would do such a fool hardy thing unless forced to do so; what would be the point! Why?????

Any product that contains glyphosate, 2,4, D, Dicambra, and many other "weed" controls are unacceptable to an organic gardener, just as any product that contains Carbryl, Malathion, Arsenic, etc. would be unnacceptable to an organic gardener.
If you understand that mixing some "weed" killers produced something as bad as "Agent Orange" then you should also be able to grasp the concept that mixing glyphosates with certain "inert" ingrediants could, and does, create something much more potent than the glyphosate, something that does more harm than the glyphosate can.
There should not be any discussion, on an organic gardening forum about the acceptability of any glyphosate product because they are not.

mudflapper,

That is because the dose is the poison. Organophosphates are problematic wrt organic gardening, as kimmmsr has been saying. But for judicious non-organic use for the non-organic gardener who RTFR, RoundUp isn't going to cause a cataclysm. Everyone spraying everything every weekend is the problem, cheap lawn services are the problem, in addition to Big Ag going ever-more-crazy with it.

As I wrote above, there are choices to be made. Vinegar won't necessarily do it, so what is the choice? You must choose.

Dan

As a college student in the 70's I had friends who were horticulture majors tell me of a professor who, during a lab in the greenhouses, took a container with a pesticide, ingested some and swished it around in his mouth like mouthwash and spit it out. He then proclaimed that it didn't kill him and therefor it was safe. I can't speak to his long-term prognosis.

If the OP is looking for permission to use RoundUp and still call himself organic, well, the organic police are probably not coming to your garden.

Sometimes there are factors that we can't always know that send people over the organic edge. If you have an especially tenacious weed, do you want to fight with it all season or do you want to get rid of it, be done with it, and get your garden back? I have a friend who is fully organic except for the once a year use of RoundUp to kill field bindweed. He's fairly careful to spray the leaves only and not drip onto the soil.

Dan,
You lost me on your response ( That's because the dose is the poison ) were you actually there when this person DRANK the Round UP and if so why did you let her drink it! you also say she is fine... she didn't even get sick or go the the Hospital after drinking 1 oz of 18% Round Up??? or did she just say she did or did you just hear it from a friend who heard it from a friend, as I said before I just can't believe that a SANE PERSON WOULD DRINK POISON, what would she have to gain from it.

were you actually there when this person DRANK the Round UP and if so why did you let her drink it! you also say she is fine... she didn't even get sick or go the the Hospital after drinking 1 oz of 18% Round Up???

I watched her. She didn't barf or anything. I no longer live in CA & don't run into her anymore in the field, so I don't know how she is doing, last time I saw her she was fine.

The issue with RoundUp is that organophosphates alter the phosphorus cycle and this is a main constituent for most urban eutrophication, which is the issue. Not that it is a type of chemical that is an endocrine disruptor (that we know of at this time) or nerve agent.

Dan

I have to agree with root doctor that getting a pesticide license is really scary, if you pay attention to what you are learning. Round up (like many chemicals) is labeled to be used only once every thirty days. Remember that line about "read the entire label" Using it more than that, eliminates much of it's "safe to use" characteristics. It can build up in your blood stream, or fat cells and cause long term damage, if you don't space out how often you use it. They do say not to use it more often. They also say not to use it "where it might drift" into any water supply. If you have a well to supply your drinking water, don't play with round up. It just isn't worth it. Either pull the weeds by hand, or learn to live with them. That advise applies to a large number of pesticides, some of which are considered organic.

I have found the most effective way to kill Bermuda grass and nut sedge is to cover it with plastic, during the warmest months of the year. Leave it covered for about six weeks and it will die off. Of course that is not always an option, but if you want to remain pesticide free, black plastic can kill a wide variety, of highly invasive weeds. Just make sure you remove it when you are done.

wow! I have never posted here before but what is with KIMSIR? We get it!!! you don't like glyphosates. They are bad, not organic. You keep alluding to mixing glyphosates with inactive (I believe you stated inert)ingredients resulting in something worse. What exactly is this worse thing? what are the effects or hazards resulting from this mixture other than the known effects of RU. I am scared by what you said, and really need to know.

Many chemicals that are rather innocuous by themselves can when mixed with some other chemical create something that is more hazardous that either one by itself. Around here we had many chemical companies years ago that made various products and dumped their waste around their sites which created very hazardous chemicals in the ground that we are still paying to have cleaned up. The USEPA has a water treatment plant at one of these sites that is pumping the ground water from that site, cleaning it, testing it to be sure the hazards have been removed, and then pumping back into the water system, ie, Bear Creek which feeds into Bear Lake which feeds into Muskegon Lake which feeds into Lake Michigan. They believe they will be there for the next 50 years and you will be paying for that operation until then and then you will be paying to dismantle the water treatment plant when they are done.
The same thing happened in New York, Love Canel, and in many other areas of the country, some rather innocuous chemicals were dumped on the ground where they mixed together and became hazardous waste.
The USEPA does not require a manufacturer to test what they sell you if the "inert" ingrediants, and all of these products have inert ingrediants, if the inert is on the list of the Generally Recognized as Safe, GRAS list because the assumption is that they are safe and they may not be as formulated.