place some moist sphagnum in the bottom of a large pot, not a lot of moss, just enough to cover the bottom
then sit one of the plants in the pot, keep warm and the sphagnum moist. repeat for the other plant
this will usually make the plant put on either new growths and or roots

If you are not attached to the plants
TOSS THEM!
Buy new ones!!!

Everytime I think it is safe to retire and go Bass fishing full time another post like this comes along. Although I have to agree with the T-Man, I feel that the o.p. at least should be told what caused the problems s/he experienced and how to solve them. This is in case s/he isn't completely ready to give up regardless of such advice but more to it, in case s/he gets new orchids and does not want a repeat decline.

Only one thing causes orchids like Cattleya and Dendrobiums to pine away and decline like the o.p. experienced and that is a chronic shortage of light. And an increase in either the intensity or duration (or both) of light is the only thing that works to restore or maintain their health.

The specifics of window orientation and the specific types and wattages of lightbulbs needed require communication from the o.p. as to what is already there but chances are good that changes should be made and not just for the plants under discussion but any others that may be present in a collection.

H

Both Cattleya and Dendrobium like to dry out between watering. When you replace them keep that in mind. And I mean dry, not just that the surface of the medium looks dry.

It doesn't hurt to try to bring back plants in this condition for the experience, especially if you are serious about growing orchids. However, don't wait to see how they do to replace them. Keep your expectations low.

OK, I hope this helps Cantando, but if nothing else, this thread is going to be a good example of how different individuals can read a post, interpret it differently, then use their own range of experience to make recommendations. Here's my take:

You rotted the roots off of the plant. My contention is that you suffocated them, probably by keeping a too-dense medium too wet. (Folks often claim that "water causes root rot" so recommend letting plants dry out between waterings, but my assertion is that the water is an indirect cause, as it clogged airways in the medium and suffocated the roots. I have plenty of experience and knowledge of others' experience keeping plants' roots wet all of the time - or even submerged - and still growing great.)

Now, because the plants are incapable of absorbing sufficient water, they are desiccating and wrinkling and losing leaves. (I agree with Howard that similar symptoms could come from light inadequacies, but considering the roots, that's probably not it in this case.)

I would recommend a classic "sphag-n-bag" approach, as did the orchid guy in FTL - put each unpotted plant in a clear plastic bag. Add a clump of moist sphagnum or even a wad of paper towel. The plant does not need to come in contact with it, as it's there to provide a moisture supply only. Seal the bags and place them in a warm, shady location.

The baggie is now a mini-greenhouse with 100% RH to prevent the plants from further desiccation. With the added energy of the warmth pushing the growth processes, the plants should recover new roots in a few weeks. DO NOT put the bags in sunlight or they will switch away from mini-greenhouses to "Boil-in-Bag" cookers instead.

Howard - - Bass fishing in this temperature????

Thank you all for the advice. I do want to try to bring these two plants back, as I don't really know how to replace them easily or at a low cost.

I have given them both very adequite light, and only the cattleya has ever been subjected to too much water at any time.

OK so, if I put both these plants in a clear bag and wrap the base of them with a moist paper towel and use a little fungicide, how likely are they to recover? BTW raybark....what is RH?

1. In re-rooting rootless catts (I have endless experience here), I have found that a gel rooting hormone like clonex, but there are others just as good

a gel rooting hormone painted on the growing eye helps speed the process up. Repaint in a month if nothing has happened.

2. You should look for the growing eye at the base of the catt pb. It's a small green triangle at the base of the pb. There can be one on several pbs. Sometimes they are flat and almost invisible, other times fattish.

You need to look for it because if all the growing eyes are rotted, the plant cannot re-grow, and you will have to pitch. As long as there is a live (read that green, not black) growing eye on even one pb, you have a chance to resuscitate the plant.

If you can't see the growing eye at all, but there's no black at the base of the bulb, paint the whole base of the bulb with clonex to stimulate it.

3. Be careful with that "wrap a moist paper towel around the base of the pb" business. That's not exactly what Ray said.

If it's too wet you will get mold, not roots. Especially if using a paper towel, you want it well wrung out and barely moist, definitely not wet at all. And you probably want to keep it in the bag but away from the plant.

Sphagnum moss is better than a paper towel, because it has rot inhibiting properties.

4. Likelihood-- if it has live growing eyes, your chances are good. If all the eyes are rotted, throw the plant out, it has nothing to grow with.

I took another close look at the cattleya and I don't see the triangle "eyes" you mentioned, but I do see some very small new root growth, so obviously the plant is quite salvageable. I just don't want to screw it up! Should I even try the bag thing, or just leave it in the dry medium?

The dendrobium doesn't show any signs of new growth at all, but no sign of real rot either. I don't even know what could have caused the roots to die on this plant, but it's quite possible it was overwatered in the store and the problem had already started by the time I bought it.

By the way....is powdered cinnamon really that effective as a fungicide, and can using too much do any harm?

Many dendrobiums rest at this time of year. However, with the days lengthening, it may start to become active again. Both the Cattleya and the dendrobium like high light. If you don't spag/bag them, put them in as bright a light as you can. You may have to use a stake and tie them upright to keep them in the medium. I have even used hair pins or open paper clips to fix them to the medium.

You may also consider using the skewer method of watering. Get a wooden shishkabob stick, trim it down, and put it into the medium and keep it there. The next time you go to water, take out the stick and touch it to your cheek or lip. For the catt, if it's wet don't water. Catts like to dry out before being watered again. For the dendrobium, how moist the stick is will depend on what type of dendrobium it is. But by April, all dendrobiums will appreciate lots of water and fertilizer as their growing season begins.

"RH" is relative humidity.

As Mehitabel said, DO NOT put the plant in contact with the wet material. It is there to saturate the air with moisture.

I respect your opinions and experience Ray but actually we don't really know much about those roots except that they were rotted off. The how of it could very well be due to a lack of light, I think so anyway. I have posted many times to the effect that with enough light supplied orchids can in fact grow very well with their roots submerged. At that point the medium and how open or not is moot isn't it? I submit that there isn't a single material that is in wide use as an orchid potting medium that isn't capable of balancing water holding with the need for aeration. That would be its reason for existence. True, after time and breakdown, compaction the aeration would be less, maybe much less but to do what was done to the o.p.'s plants imo requires light shortage. I have my plants under very 'adequate' light too. All are stalled, except for the phals. It takes a LOT more light to cause growth than to simply maintain life. "I have treated it with fungicide and let it dry out for long periods of time to encourage new root growth, but nothing seems to be happening at all." Light starvation or too low temps or maybe both. Fungicide? I don't see any need for it. I get so out of control about light precisely because its importance in the equation is often missed by those for whom an abundance of it comes easily. Windows appear bright but it is not until you actually try growing anything in one that needs a serious amount of light to see how inadequate they really are. Without help of course.

H (ok maybe Bass fishing was reaching, but the ice fishing isn't exactly great this year either)

Wow, I'm really learning a lot here. Thanks for all the input!

As far as light goes, here are 3 questions:

1. How dangerous is a few hours of direct sun to most orchids?

2. I have heard that keeping orchids under a flourescent light 24 hours a day will mess up the plant's natural "clock" or something and not do much good. Any truth to that?

3. I keep my orchids by a large south-facing window that gets pretty good light and a few hours of direct sun most days. Will it take a lot more than this to encourage growth?

Please buy a book by Ortho, "All About Orchids" and read about their needs. If you don't know the basics, you will just have more dead plants. Please go to the main page of this forum and read the FAQ's.
Only you can figure out why your roots rotted. After reading about your plants, you will discover what it is about your environment and care which cause the demise of your plants. As helpful as people try to be, we can only guess. You will learn more by researching yourself and then come back with more questions.

Jane

Will this advice work well for phalaenopsis as well? I have the same problem with the roots, except one has 2 small roots, and the other has none. Should I "sphag-n-bag"? Also, I have a rooting hormone powder. Will that work instead of the rooting gel mentioned in one of the posts? Should I dust the root area with a fungicide? And last, can I set the plants on the sphagnum moss, wrap them in the sphag, or just put the sphag in the same bag (there was some differing advice here)? Thanks.

Never found spag n bag to be an advantgeous solution, especially in Northern zones. Wet continues the decline process in low light. Bark mixed with a little spagum pot it up. Tight pot, good light, good heat, good air, light on the water or mist the media until ya seem some activity. Leave the orchid to its' own device. Powder, gel, super thrive all the same. Peroxide works. Cinnamon tends to inhibit growth
Mike

What about the one with no roots? btw, there is no sign of rotting anymore, just no roots.

In answer to questions #1 and #3

The orchids you have need lots and lots of sun to do well. It would help if you told us where you live. Light varies a lot from the frozen north to Florida to the UK.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that sun is bad for orchids, but I suspect from those terrible cultural blurbs attached to most orchids you find in the big box stores. You know, that bright, diffused light nonsense. I don't grow catts, but the vast majority of my Dends spend the summer outside with about 6-8 hours of hot blazing sun the entire day. Since I'm in MN I can do that. If you live in Florida, you probably can't. Now they're in a south facing window with additional light from CFLs for 14-16 hours a day. Anything less and they would not bloom.

If you can only give your plants a couple of hours of sun a day, they will eventually die. You must give them more light. Be honest with yourself about the conditions you have. Just because you see sun shining through your window sometimes doesn't mean it's shining there 8 hours a day. Also, how many cloudy days a year do you have? We've only seen the sun a few days in the last month. It all makes a difference.

Kevin

Really nicely put Kevin.
I have never seen a phal with "no roots". 0, none, rien nada? I see a lot of sick phals. If one waits until there are no roots, too late. How it can be let go for so long, I will never understand. The culture/ care investigation should have started before the plant first began his descent to the "clay pot in the sky".

No roots is a long long time of unhealth. It's like a ballerina that retires for 20 years, becomes run down, smokes, drinks and then tries to dance the Pas de Deux of Swan Lake. Not a realistic goal. No amount of rooting hormone or chemicals & junk culture with correct the damage. Honestly, there is no magic "chemical bullet". This is a tropical plant that lives in zone 4. Conditions and light to support a tropical plant in z-4 must be manufactured and orchestrated carefully according to the plant's actual needs; in both greenhouse or indoors. T-man says, toss it buy a new plant- best advise. A beginner will unlikely have success reviving something that far shot. The plant never be the same and it will likely need years of tight culture to be restored to anything remotely resembling it's former glory.

I have tried many methods to revive failing orchids, "straight up" like Mike says is best. Mist the media only. If the rest of the conditions are absolutely on target consistently day in and day out; there will be a small chance of resuscitation.

Howard, I'll meet you on the back side of Cuttyhunk at 4am.... Stripers! ...

Clara
The "Sugare-Free" version of the Sugar Plumb Fairy...

So that's why I can't dance the Pas de Deux... Well, you said the magic words: "A beginner will unlikely have success reviving something that far shot." So I, being a glutton for punishment, will forge ahead. At the very least, it will be a learning experience. The reason the plants are that far gone is because I, the first time orchid buyer (read "sucker") bought them on sale at Lowe's. I didn't know about the root thing.

I've read the posts pertaining to this situation and have ended up totally confused; there is so much contradictory advice out there. Since it's probably a lost cause anyway, I just took a little of this and that, and made it up as I went.

So, what do I have going against me:
Well, everything, including the fact that I'm in the Adirondacks (cold and dark) and we heat with a wood stove (dry.)

Here's what I've done. Both plants are on the window ledge above the kitchen sink, where the air is moist(er) I also have a humidifier in the room, and I mist the ends of the leaves (not in the crown) a couple few (that's a Texas term) times a day. I bought a fluorescent grow light that is mounted about 2 1/2 ft. above the plants. It stays on from about 9am to 7pm. The room, which has a gas fireplace stays pretty warm, usually around 68 during the day. It can get up to 78 when the wood stove gets cranking (the wood stove is in the basement, btw.)

1. For the paph with 2 approx, 1" roots:
-I planted it in orchid mix (soaked and drained) in a 2" clay pot, and set the pot on top of rocks in a water filled saucer.
-I'm using the skewer method for the dampness test.
-In addition to misting the ends of the leaves, I mist the medium when it is dry.

2. For the paph with no roots:
-I loosely wrapped the root area with rooting hormone soaked sphagum moss (damp) after dusting it with rooting hormone, and put it in a 2" clay pot filled with rocks.
-I put the plant in a clear plastic container which is covered by plastic wrap (with holes.)
-In addition to misting the ends of the leaves, I wet the spahg when it is dry, and every so often (when it's dry) I mist the sides of the container.

Should I fertilize either of them?

Any suggestions/comments other than laughter and lol? I'll let y'all know how it goes.

PS: is this posting too long? I'm new at this and I don't want to have bad posting etiquette...

Go 'Horns!

Bevo Bravo! Don't give up, take the experience. Always good to have. It will not be a waste. the reason why you are seeing condradictory info and Flame wars on an anotherwise docile board is simple. Old school growing vs new school growing at the indoor level. ("Junk Culture"/"fast food" Culture (care) vs "Enlightened Culture") The CFL has revolutionised growth. CFL's (compact flourescents) are now quite affordable and have revolutionised indoor growing. We can almost compete with an outdoor grower, sometimes even a g/h grower. There are many highly skilled people on the board. Hang in. Howard_A is the top end where light and health is concerned with indoor growing. You may want to put him into the GW search engine and read his back posts. Also CFL's I wrote one called Big Bertha.

You wrote a lot, fantastic, no laughing, write a novel if you like. very cool! Lets see what you've got. You have taken some excellent steps in getting on the right track. I live in Chicago, I can identify :-) You are probably still underlight. What kind of light is it and where is it placed? We talk in footcandles (fc's) lumens to a lesser degree, watts and kelvin. Anything you can tellus will help. Humidifyer, great!

Paphs are a different recovery process than phals. They also like higher light than you think. 68º is a bit chilly, but a 42w cfl or 2 will help with that. The "spag and bag" just doesn't seem to work with paphs. Their roots are really different. Here's what may work:

I use a mixture of seedling bark, a little bonsai pumice and a little peat. very open very fluffy, fine mix. Spag may be too water retentive for paph roots. You kind of want to picture the forrest floor. Kind of fluffy decayed leaves, sandy soil, little chunks of bark. The plant will need a fairly open mix and good air. Get the plant on top of it securely. Mist only at the medium once or twice a day and wait. Paph roots will take forever. But really that is your best shot. Without excellent light the spag and bag is going to rot the paph further.

I have tried the saucer method outside. It lead to rot. We just don't have the light and heat air movement to sustain that method up this way. Orchids like a wet/dry cycle. For an ailing paph lets call it a little wet/just about dry cycle. It's a lot to get your head around. It will take some time. Orchids are a bit different than dirt plants. Water is not a help to them, like it is a dirt plant. They are not cactii either. They are tropical and do need light, lots of it. They will react after they have been underlit for a time. Slow acclimation to increased light.

Keep going, you are on the right track!.

Clara

The length of your post is fine - we have many long posts presented on here. My only suggestion might be to start a new thread instead of tacking on to an older thread. Many people don't read old threads or don't read the entire thread before offering up advice that might be confusing and not apply to the later question.

No laughter here, it sounds like you read, sifted through info and made a decision. Hopefully your guesses will work and guessing is about all anyone can do when dealing with tropical plants in non-tropical areas.

As in Hook'em Horns?

Brooke

Brooke - How do I start a new thread? Can I take that post and assign it to a new thread?

As in Go Longhorns! (Note my name "Bevo")

Oh shoot, Clara, and everyone, they are phals, not paphs! My bad. And you went to so much trouble to write a detailed answer. I'm an idiot! How much of your advice still stands? I noticed you pointed out distinct differences in care. I'll look into the lights. Sorry again for the trouble.

No problem Bevo. Agreed with Brooke. A new thread for the next time you post would be better. Sign in, go to the desired forum and click "Post message". It's really small at the top of the page.

OK Spag and bag on a phal in low light. Saucer method is for paphs, though. Some advise holds but it is a bit different root. Very sensitive to over watering and over drying. Also have not had a great success with spag and bag either, especially in winter. My media of choice is chc and the tighest pot you can find. Light on the water but regular. Pot them up and water when the media is almost completly dry. A spag top coat will tease new roots out. I have also tried a spag bottom coat. . If you have any roots, they will try to "sniff out" water. I call it the "stretch for water". I am not a big advocate of misting but, if you keep the spag top coat a little moist, the plant does tend to respond. Be very careful not to get any mist on the plant itself.

Bark and spag mixed with a little rock may also be worth a try too. It will keep the mix open. What kind of rocks? Spag takes some practice to control the dry time depending on many variables, light heat humidity. The plain spag can often take too long to dry and your roots will rot again. Orchids like a quick drink of water. A little goes a long way for them. Take a google at orchids in nature. They attach themeselves to the side of trees. It rains, water simply passes by the roots. They are found in places that have higher humidity so it doesn't rain and go bone dry. 68º is really too low for a phal. 78º is better. Spag will stay wet for too long in cool dark conditions. A sick phal needs to be kept warm. Good air movement. I would recommend the CFL's in addition to what you have currently.It will help boost temps to their area too and help them get well if they are going to do it. They are tough plants as you are seeing

You may start to see aerial roots. When they get long enough, guide them down into the mix if they aren't heading in that direction. It will help stabilse the plant and get it back on it's feet. For me, aerials have done more good in the pot than out of the pot.

Let us know about the light. That is the most important part of it all.

Clara

bevo sorry I didn't give my opinion on fertilizer but on any plant material in stress, no to fertilizer.

The idea behind sphag and bag is to control the loss of water to a rootless or recovering plant. Light is needed for recovery but not so much light to heat up the bag/container/whatever you use, to keep the surrounding area humid. The intent is to create a mini greenhouse. Without roots, the leaves cannot replace the moisture lost through the leaves if high air movement sucks the moisture from the struggling plant.

Try doing a search on this forum of a poster named paintersart. He wrote a very nice summary of this process with good whys and where fors, a much better communicator than I am. You can tweak his info to suit your conditions.

What if I was an Aggie fan?

Brooke

Brooke - Although I'm the head of our local alumni group (The Adirondack Longhorns - there are like five of us...), no problem you are an Aggie fan. We have a position at UT: "Texas fans make us proud." It means be cool to the competition - unless you are from Oklahoma University (just kidding!) Y'all sure gave us a butt kickin' last Thursday, your quarterback played really well; not so much did Colt McCoy. I think we're allowed to hate the competition on game day, tho we still have to be polite. ;)

Nope, not an Aggie, just joking with you but I was born in OK but left at six months of age so don't hold that against me - LOL!

Good luck with your rehabs, let us know if it works or doesn't work - don't be disappointed if it doesn't.

Brooke

Clara and Brooke: I have started a new thread, called Phailing Phalaenopsis. See you there.