Never tried it, but I have read that willow branches have an auxin in them that promotes root growth.

Cool idea! However, I do not have enough free time to find the trees, chop them, boil them, etc. etc. etc. I would love to know how it goes after you have applied it!

-Ray-

I did make my own last night and, for the record, it didn't take very long. The ends of willow tree branches are quite slender. It took all off three mintues, if that, to chop them up with a good pair of pruning shears. It took longer to boil the water. Once the water was at a good roiling boil, I threw the cuttings in, let them boil for five minutes and then turned it off to let them steep. This morning I have a big pot of rooting hormone sitting on my stove. Easy.

Now the only question is how much to use for my media pre-soak. I'm moving some of my orchids to S/H, and still have to repot others in bark mix. Not knowing its strength is a bit tricky. I was thinking of using of using half water, half rooting hormone.

Will using too much hurt my plants? Since it's all natural, I don't think there will be a problem. We'll see how it goes.

Indole-3-butyric acid (1H-Indole-3-butanoic acid, IBA) is a white to light-yellow crystalline solid, with the molecular formula C12H13NO2. It melts at 125 °C in atmospheric pressure and decomposes before boiling. from reference.com

I am sorry to part this information to you, but not a bad idea.
I think you may have destroyed your rooting compound when you boiled it. Boiling generally breaks apart organic chemical compounds.
Mark Sullivan

Mmmmm. I was merely following instructions I found. There were generally two sets of directions; one said to do what I did, the other said to simply soak the cuttings in water overnight.

I used the batch I made full strength and used it for my presoak and on the roots directly before repotting.

Since I do have to make another batch - I have many other orchids to repot - I may use the cold method as opposed to boiling. Of course, there really isn't a way to gauge the effectiveness of either method, but in the end I don't think it will hurt, and that's the bottom line.

Having said that, I do have a division of my original phrag grande that I can use for informal experimentation. One with, one without? One boiled, one soaked? See which one fairs better? I don't know, I still have to think that one through a bit, but one thing is for sure, both need to be repotted.

The whole idea of using willow is intriguing. It's organic, sustainable, economical, and, for me, convenient. I can use it for my orchids and for other plants my husband and I propagate.

Anyway, thanks for the information, Mark. I will definitely keep it in mind for the future.

Suz

I would definitely go with the cold soak. You maybe able to heat the water to warm to help out. I just would not boil. The longer the willow soaks the more indolebutyric acid you may get. I don't know where indolebutyric acid is in the willow. I suspect most is located just below the bark in the vascular cambium. Lightly pealing or cutting the outer bark may help.

Acetylsalicylic acid or Aspirin is also found in willow. Some people dissolve aspirin in water and include that with their orchid feeding. Supposedly helps the flow of nutrients though I don't know of any scientific study that proves it on live plants. Acetylsalicylic acid is used with cut flowers to make them last longer.

I don't think you are going to harm your orchids, but having no control over what you are leaching out of the willow it would be hard to attribute any one compound that may come out to better growth if you do get better growth.

Cheers,
Mark

Sounds like an intriguing idea. Willows do root extremely easily (to many people's dismay, it becomes rather noxious weed-tree) However, it does seem logical that boiling or heat will distroy the hormone on a molecular level. Would simply taking willow stems, cutting them up in a small pieces, and then running it through a blender with water work? Let the wet mess steep and then strain?

Actually the blender idea, letting the wet mess steep, and then strain would probably be the most effective idea for getting as much out as possible.

Judging from Wikipedia, here is what you should do:

Put the willow section in a blender and chop it up, but do not make the pieces too small. Boil the willow leaves for a bit. Boiling should not denature the hormone, because it only decomposes after it boils at 125 degrees Celsius. Boiling water should never get above ~105 degrees, even if it has a lot of particles dissolved in it.

After you have boiled it, filter out the willow particles. Add some fresh willow particles and boil again. Repeat, until you run out of willow. Let the solution cool to room temp. You should have crystals on the bottom, since it is not water soluble. Hope this helps, and tell us how your experiments turn out.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wiki Link

Arrrgh! Darn metric system! I didn't catch that at all. Can we look at the boiling method for a minute?

Okay. Water boils at 100C/212F. If boiling water doesnÂt get above 105C/221F, and the melting point of IBA is 125C/257F, then my batch should be okay. However, Mark (and Wiki) pointed out that the IBA begins to decompose at the boiling point, which, I suppose, would diminish the strength of the hormone.

If I wanted a crystalline version of the hormone, then, York, your method would definitely be the way to go. Having said that, I do need the IBA to be suspended in water in order to use it for my presoak.

So, taking everything into account, for an alternate boiling method (I believe that we've already established that the cold soak method is viable), is to do this:

1. Bring a pot of water to a boil, and then remove it from the heat source to stop the boiling action;

2. Chop up the willow, either by hand or by blender/food processor;

3. Then throw the cuttings into the hot water letting them steep, at least, overnight.

It's not really a boiling method, per se, only because you're not boiling the willow itself. Using heat as an aid to release the IBA from the fibers makes sense to me. That's probably why I went with that method to begin with.

Gathering from Wiki, dissolving IBA in water is impossible. It doesn't say why, but I assume it's because it has a hydrophobic backbone. The only way to have it dissolve in water (from chemistry's standpoint) is to boil the water with IBA in it. I believe that IBA has no incentive to even exit the willow leaves, because it is insoluble in non-boiling water. You're right about needing heat for it to occur, but in this case, the closer you get the water to 212 F/100C, the better.

After the water cools, you should have an oil-like layer of IBA at the top of the pot, and possibly some crystallizing IBA at the bottom. The best thing you could do is boil off as much water as possible, and then dilute the mixture with ethanol (wiki)

Personally, I'd like to set up an experiment with 4 plants. One watered with IBA in water, another with IBA in ethanol/water, the 3rd with just water, and the 4th with ethanol/water. Maybe someday =)

I love a good discussion, and I'm thoroughly enjoying this one. :)

Let me throw a curve ball at you... and remember, I'm new to this whole willow thing and I'm learning as I go along.

In my poking around today, I found that there is, perhaps, another substance in willows that works in conjunction with the IBA (or other auxin) - rhizocaline. Now here's where it gets a little tricky. Rhizocaline has never been fully identified and may or may not be made up of 3 or 4 different elements. No one seems to know. Also, rhizocaline is supposedly fully water soluble (how they know that without knowing its chemical makeup is beyond me).

For a better understanding read Malcolm Manners' post in the citrus forum (link below). Dr. Manners is Professor of Citrus and Environmental Horticulture at Florida Southern College and his explanation was the best I've seen thus far. Scroll about half-way down the thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: Willow Water Explanation in the Citrus Forum

I'm learning a lot from this post, thanks a lot maloria. Seems like a very interesting article. Dr Manners posted his comments in 2005. Maybe they've done additional research on this topic? I refuse to believe that they have discovered nothing new in the last 3 years.

Well, time for me to sleep, good night =D

yeah this thread is very interesting and fascinating, is anyone going to experiment to see if this compound works well to promote root growth organically because i would like to know something that can produce roots organically, and i think i have heard that mollases promotes root growth due to the high levels of potassium and other things, i am not sure why but i did find this information on the web to be very fascinating i am going to try to see if it might work.

If you do get crystals and have a hard time dissolving it in water, you could make a paste using something like lanolin and paint it on to the rooting area. This may be more effective, like keiki paste.

Sorry about dropping the ball... I was suddenly taken ill and sitting at the computer was the last thing I wanted to do.

Just a quick update... this may be a coincidence, but almost all of the orchids treated using willow water are showing signs of new growth already. All went into s/h. These include paphs, a phal, a dend, a sarco, and a couple of oncids. One oncid that was declining has perked up and now has three new growths. I'm pretty happy about that.

Now that I'm feeling better, I can start repotting again.

Not meant to hajacking this thread -- but since I don't have any willow trees or branches handy & if the Acetylsalicylic acid (Aspirin) maybe helpful, can I just dissolve some pills in the water and work with it? what would be the recommanded strength? 2 pills per gallon?

Thanks,
KC

This is an interesting topic and wonder about the use of aspirin.

Maloria, it is Spring and all my orchids are making growths without the use of any hormone. Even some struggling plants are giving it a last shot. Mine are all planted in bark and other mixes. This is not the best time to tell if this method would have any effect on growth.

Interesting thread and will continue to follow it.

Jane

I know, Jane. That's why I said it may just be a coincedence. :)

However, the one oncid that was declining was in pretty bad shape. Out of 8 or 9 pbulbs, it had dropped all but 2 or 3 of its leaves, but the new growths (that weren't there when I repotted it) are surprisingly strong. Maybe just the act of repotting it helped. Maybe the willow water and repotting helped. It's hard to tell. The little sarco has been stagnate for the past two years and now looks much stronger than it has ever looked. It was in bark, now it's in s/h. That could be the reason, too.

I guess the point is that it didn't hurt and it *may* have helped. The real test will come this weekend when I can finally repot my phrag grandes. I'll do one with the willow, the other without. It'll be a better test.

KC, not sure about the aspirin, but just doing a quick check on the internet I found that some people says it works, some say it doesn't.

I mentioned aspirin because I think it is the same chemical. Keep up informed. I have Willow trees on my property and once tried chewing on a twig to see if it helped a headache. It didn't.

I'm always on the lookout for natural methods. Who knows, you might hit on something.

Good luck,
Jane