Could you explain what you mean by 10%? Having a difficult time comparing the solid epsom salts vs. the liquid fert/water mixture.

I've never tried epsom salts myself, but it's an intersting subject.

Tyler

I did not get into specifics but I think he means something as simple as handful of ES to 9 handful of fertilizer. I should mention that even though I water at least once a day (my plants are bare root) I fertilize only every second time or so. A regular flush with clean water is thus provided.

Nick

I just noticed that you are talking about liquid fertlizer. I think you would need a ppm meter to see how much your usual ppm concentration of fertilizer is and then measure your Epsom Salt concentration.

I don't think its that critical, just add a little, you are basically enhancing the Potassium and Phosphorous availability to your plants. If one assumes that the regular fertilizer has enough of that it makes the whole thing a moot point, similar to a person who does not suffer from a Vit deficiency taking Vit supplements which only make expensive urine but do little else. Another analogy would be adding water to a full bucket which is what I always thought ES is. The 2 growers convinced me that this is not so.

Nick

Most high grade fertilizers already have magnesium added to their mix. It is not necessary to add more for most orchids.

Terrestrial orchids may have more of a leaching problem if watered heavily and some Epson salt may help.

You should look closely at the package of fertilizer you use and see the concentration of magnesium already in the fertilizer. It makes a great diffeence to add 10% more magnesium to a solution that already has the proper amount. If the fertilizer has now then the addition of epson salt will help.

That's the whole point. The 'GrowMore' I use has plenty of Magnesium, Potassium etc, so does the stuff the 2 Cymbidium growers use. Adding more may just make more expensive run-off without any benefit to the plants. I discussed that with the growers but they insist that it does some good.

These guys are in it for the profit, even though Epsom Salt is cheap, I doubt that they would spend money on something unless it gave them a better product. They add it every time they fertilize.

So far no one has responded who does something similar. If there is someone out there who does, please speak up.

Nick

hello, Nick, I had not used it every watering in the past but lately, I decided to try this fert. recipe that some-one posted somewhere: 12 oz beer, 1 cup epsom salt, 1/2 cup amonia, & 1/2 cup (blackstrap) molasses. i mix it in a 2 litre container and fill it up with RO water. then i dilute it at the rate of 1 part fert. to 9 parts water. i have been using it every second watering. i have found the colour of the leaves brighter and they seem to be growing faster. and pbulbs seem fatter. i started doing this march/april this year. I have been using dyna-grow products and msu and seaweed and peters fert. for the past 3 years (sort of alternating periodically) and I did not see this type of difference in the plants before. i even have a few catts in spike now which i did not expect. also one the vanda's which received poor lighting the whole winter. after being outside for 3 weeks it is in spike (or would that be normal?). the flowers seem to last longer: 3 of my spring flowering cymbidiums are still in flower or is that normal too? I have only been growing orchids about 5 years and I have very little idea as to what is normal in orchid behaviour.

sue

Sue, once you mix up the fert what kind of shelf life does it have? Are you using all of it in one watering or do you use it over several waterings? If it needs to be used fresh each time I'll have to cut the recipe in half.

hello, Claire, I made up half the recipe and used it over 6 weeks. i did not test the shelf life: i don't even know how to do that. i think the alcohol in the beer and the suger in the molasses sort of act like preservatives. of course, i could be totally mistaken. maybe some one with more experience with beer/alcohol can comment.
sue

I'm an orchid forum lurker. I have used the beer fertilizer for a few years. One mixing only lasts me about 2 weeks, but I use it on everything from cacti to orchids to houseplants to veggies. It seems to help all of them. I store it under my kitchen sink, the ES never really dissolves completely so I use boiling water to help dissolve the ES then add it to the rest of the mix. I also add a multi-vitamin and an asprin to mine in place of the blackstrap. (I have too many ants otherwise) I seems to have about a month shelf life before it gets brown floaties, but it is still good. I have some outside left over from last year, which is still good. I use 2 TBS to a gallon of water, both as a folliar feed and in it's water. For orchids and ferns use half to quarter strength as a foliar only.

Orchidnick

when you are talking to growers you should consider that they seldom do a side by side comparison. As a result they really do not know if it makes a difference.

Over the years they become entrenched in one way to do something and they never vary.

Jerry

What you say is true however if they get good results one has to wonder if they are doing something right. Neither of the two I talked to uses Super Thrive, neither do I, yet so many people swear by it. I think it is mostly related to the cost, something that expensive HAS TO BE GOOD!! Maybe, maybe not. I give them beer instead.

Nick

Jerry

What you say is true however if they get good results one has to wonder if they are doing something right. Neither of the two I talked to uses Super Thrive, neither do I, yet so many people swear by it. I think it is mostly related to the cost, something that expensive HAS TO BE GOOD!! Maybe, maybe not. I give them beer instead.

Nick

hello, nick, i have used superthrive because of the reviews i have read; however, i have not found any significant difference from my own experience. i still use it periodically because i have so much of it and because it does not do any harm that i can see. i am hopeful because i paid so much for it ( having had to get it from U.S.A. ) that there is some subtle benefits that my inexperienced eyes cannot see. in case you are interested, the other fertilizer i use where i see some good results is seaweed extract.
sue

Hi Sue

Did you ever get a D speciosum, if not, shame on you.

A friend of mine in the Orchid Society has a Masters Degree in Arigculture from U of San Luis Obispo, an Ag hub in California. He is well versed in the chemicals of insecticides, fertilizers etc. I asked him about Super Thrive and here is his response:

Neither he, nor anyone else knows whats in it. A well guarded secret just like the Coca Cola formula. He thinks its a combination of Vitamins and Hormones on a basis of ground up Alfalfa, but its all conjecture. He has always uses it in his plants but does not really know if it does any good. This guy is a card carrying hypochondriac who will treat a minor scratch on his delicate 6' 3" body with Iodine, Hydrogen Peroxide, then lather on A&D ointment before a surgical dressing is applied. He will take extra doses of immune stengthening supplements to bolster his body's defenses.

He used to work for a large Cymdidium nursery who used ST to revive weakened plants after import but did not use it on a regular basis. Found it too expensive. On the subject of studies for its usefulness he referred me to several done by the company that makes the stuff. RIGHT, I'll believe them when pigs fly. To his knowledge no independent studies have been done but there is a crying need for a real double blind study to put to rest forever the suspicion that this is nothing but a hype.

Vit C obviously helps colds and what have you until some Universities performed real meaningful studies and found out that it has no benefit what so ever. This of course will not deter the health crazy public to spend billions on the stuff and create expensive urine which will help the sewer rats with their colds. I suspect a similar situation with ST.

I don't intend to use super Thrive until someone can show me some real facts proving it's usefulness.

Nick

orchidnick,

You're a scientist. Re: Epsom Salts, please give us:

S Subjective:
O Objective:
A Analysis:
P Plan:

It's interesting. Please, follow-up.

--Stitz--

Stitz

You are funny! Remember we are just hobbyists who grow flowers, not scientists. Epsom salt needs to be treated the same as Super Thrive. Until there is a true double blind study one has only anectodal evidence.

In medicine anectodal evidence is given no credence what so ever. Example: My bother in law had hemorrhoids. He bought a new Honda Civic and the hemorrhoids disappeared. Honda Civics therefore must be good for hemorhoids. In a double blind study neither the subject nor the administering entity can know what they are getting. Someone needs to take 2 groups of identical orchids and treat one with fertilizer plus Epsom salt, the other group in identical way except the Epsom salt is an inert fake which looks the same. Neither the grower nor the plants know who is getting the real thing and who is getting the fake. After a year an independent entity needs to evaluate the 2 groups of plants and judge whether one is superior to the other. Only then is the code revealed and it becomes known which plants got the real thing. If the ES plants truly look superior one has meaningful results. To my knowledge this has not been done.

Instead of that we get reports that Joe Buttsqueak is using ES and his plants look real good, meaningless information. Google has pages of entries, most discuss the need of Magnesium and that magnesium is necessary for flowering, growing and everything in between. None that I found discuss whether the addition of ES to our regular fertilizers, which all contain magnesium, is beneficial. There exist no DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES that I know off, the one and only Gold Standard of scientific analysis.

So we are left with anectodal evidence since there appears to be nothing else available. The first entry on Google has Michigoose, a frequent Forum contributor stating that seedlings grew up faster with ES but that flowering was the same. Was there a double blind study done? I doubt it.

So if users other than Joe Buttsqueak, like major successful orchid growers in my area, using the same tap water I use, find it worth wile to spend money on ES and add it every time they fertilize, I do pay attention. This does not prove it, its still anectodal. So I'm going to use it, little info will come out of that as my plants appear to be doing well without it. Its cheap and as long as it does no apparent harm, I'm going to run with it. Since I hose my orchids off with clean tap water every second day, there will be no build up of salts around the roots which might be a problem in other collections.

This thread has not revealed widespread use of it by hobbyists, I'm no further ahead than at the beginning of the process. SBOE uses it although not every time they fertilize, 2 Cymbidium growers use it every time, none of the above 3 ever use Super Thrive for what its worth.

A good exercise would be for as many participants as possible to poll the major orchid growers they know in their areas and simply list whether they do or do not use ES and or ST either on a casual, frequent or every time basis.

Nick

hello, Nick, I have not got one of those D. speciosum. i keep on looking at the pictures, though. I am afraid that is the only indulgence i can have along with looking at pictures of phaius, all those wonderfully gigantic orchids. I just don't have the space for something that size. I wish I did. my problem is that i get caught up with everyone's enthusiasm and then i want to try them all!! i would find doing double blind studies boring because i don't have the patience and because it would become serious - too much like work. I just want to enjoy and have fun - if i mess up and kill a plant, i just get another one or not. when i am finished using the ST that i have i won't be buying any more. your friend must be alot of fun to have around. i know someone like that about vitamins - funny thing is, she smokes like chimney ... and wonders why nothing is working. it is rather amusing.
sue

This is an interesting thread. I'm visiting the Orchid forum, as I do other GW forums on occasion, to acquire information and learn.

I have never tried the beer fertilizer but have heard others speak of it with glowing praise. One thing I would be most interested in is the use of the beer formula with hydrotron. I'm sure there are orchid enthusiasts that grow with hydrotron. I'd be like to hear of their experimentations and fertilizing practices.

Sande

My experience with super thrive (it is, of course, not a double blind study):

I've used it on my Vanda seedlings. I use the recommended dosage as a 5 minute soak. I do this once every 3 weeks or so I have time to observe the plants. 2-3 days after the soak, the roots start branching aggressively. I have no intentions of claiming that the plant growth is better/worse with SP, but, at the very least, the hormones clearly cause the roots to branch. Deciding whether the hormones & vitamins actually help those roots grow after they're branched is up to a real study. I'm happy with the improved root systems (a must in my less than perfect conditions).

As to the epsom salts, I've never used them, but the general trend in my society seems to be to use them when plants are yellowing but not on a regular basis AFAIK.
~Jem