Hi Charm, the link is giving an ebay not responding message.

maybe I got it this time!~Charm

Here is a link that might be useful: http://cgi.ebay.com/Cattleya-warscewiczii-Helena-de-Ospina-orchid-species_W0QQitemZ200232139016QQihZ010QQcategoryZ42218QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Steve is fully disclosing the situation, and the orchid is genuine as he is describing, so, as in all things, it is worth what someone will pay for it. I have seen it and it is more beautiful that the picture shows.

Having said that, yes, that is more than I would pay for any plant. But through the years, the top price I would consider has steadily grown, so maybe someday I'll be paying $1000 for a historic orchid.

Someone willing to pay that much for a "serious collector" orchid will probably plan on trying to go through the measures of mericloning it in an attempt to shake-off the virus.

And it looks like the seller started with a $49.00 price and people kept bidding up. So at least two bidders really want it despite the virus condition.

Way too advanced and too pricey for me. But now I am curious how this story would go :)

This thread just shows the problem of virused plants that show nil symptoms.

In my large collection of "Cattleyas" i bet there are a few with virus that show nil signs.

Wonder which virus infection is afflicting the plant?

Holy cow, so much $$$ for a plant, a virused plant....even if you have $$ to throw around and use water to fill up your gas tank, I think it is crazy....
Having said that, buying what you really crave for is fun, if you don't get buyer's remorse later....

>> In my large collection of "Cattleyas" i bet there are a few with virus that show nil signs

I sort of have that same suspicion about my own collection. Even though I do not see any obvious virus infections, it is not unreasonable to suspect that a few could be carriers, or some are in fact afflicted but has gone undetected by me.

Although it is a relatively small collection (between 150-200 plants), at nearly $5.00 per piece, a "cheap" home test kit will still cost me quite a large sum to test every single plant.

I have over a thousand orchids, so "cheap testing" is out of the question.

The whole virus question is over the top and there is no way the virus test kit marketers are going to cool the flames.

CMV is a very serious problem with Cymbidiums but perhaps some of the other virus types infect some Genera and produce Nil Symptoms.

Anyway, the Ebay seller has done the right thing in his add.

theres no question he has done the right thing....and the orchid blooms are gorgeous....it just surprises me that people are fighting over a virused orchid and are willing to pay that much for one, I don't care how scarce it is, or beautiful....just my thoughts, and I don't believe it can be mericloned to sluff off the virus, it would be in the plant tissue.~Charm

essentially the main problem in the orchid world. maybe hopefully one of the bidders is Troy M.? and maybe once he gets it he'll try to remove the virus and then mass produce it? but then again i being hopeful at best.

Gaston

There may not be two bidders. There may be one bidder and the person putting the plant on E-bay, trying to raise the stakes.

"There may be one bidder and the person putting the plant on E-bay, trying to raise the stakes."

That's against the rules!

--Stitz--

Definitely not the case with this gentleman. I've been following his offerings for two years and dream of winning the lottery so I could own something from him.

Brooke

I agree, not the case here. The few I have of his (eat your heart out Brooke) are really great orchids. And as mentioned above, he had a reasonable starting price. The rest is enthusiasm.

> I don't believe it can be mericloned to sluff off the virus, > it would be in the plant tissue.

I spoke to someone who runs a tissue culture lab about this a few years ago. Apparently a side effect of mericloning is that viral replication can be stunted so that replicated tissue has the potential to become virus free.

Corymbosa, I didn't know that...just learned something new....~Charm

Hi
You obviosly are not an intense reader of EBay lol. How about 15,000 for a grilled cheese sandwich.?? Used at that??lol Or 3/4 of a million for a dress that Marilyn Monroe wore ?? I'm curious what you do with these things after you get them?? Always thought cheese sandwichees had a short shelf life.?? Of course you could always wear the dress around the house while singing happy birthday.
I'm always suspicious of EBay How do you know the owner isn't bidding against you??
For my grand I'm going to buy a potato that looks like Richard Nixon. Now that's valuable!!! gary

Richard I do eat my heart out. Eventually, with fingers crossed and a prayer sent to the orchid Gods, I will own something that originated from Steven's collection.

And what is your address again?

Brooke

I agree with Nick... there need be no sleep lost, or mass hysteria perpetuated, by an orchid virus that may or may not show itself. When it does, simply take the necessary steps to avoid spreading it.

As a dog breeder, I am all too familiar with the "mass hysteria" of certain problems, and ones that we really have little control over, at that. CHD was all I heard discussed in "dog people" circles, and yet, there are no genetic markers for this that make it possible to rid a bloodline of it through breeding! The best that can be done is to breed the better dogs in the hopes that decent hips will result in the progeny, and keep the "bigger picture" in mind while doing so. I'll take a dog with mediocre hips that has every other characteristic desired over the OFA Excellent dog lacking heart or stable temperament or drive or genetic health, etc... and I'm sure there are a lot of orchid growers that would take the virused, yet highly desirable plant that showed no sign, over an orchid that they didn't want.

The problems arise when people hear or read about something that can potentially be bad, but do not take it upon themselves to do the research necessary to find out the truth or the details before spreading the "bad word"!

As Nick said, viruses are a fact of life... nothing to panic about as long as we exercise a certain amount of care in hygiene. I have Lupus, which means I have a very poor immune system... I'm determined to live life without worrying about what viruses I might come into contact with... I'd need to live in a plastic bubble if I did!

Will someone please expand on this fabled collection and the identity of "Steven"? I would like to learn more. Thanks.

Here is an interesting link with some bio info on Orchid Personalities:
http://www.geocities.com/~marylois/bio.html#B

--Stitz--

There is no need to lose sleep over buying a virused plant because you chose to buy it. On the other hand, how many of our plants are virused without our knowledge? The problem is when we give away a plant, share it or display it in public. Our OS often has classes on repotting, dividing, etc and I would never bring one of my plants to these classes.

I have never heard nor read that mericloning eliminates virus. Just the opposite. I don't know where you got that information, but I'd like to read it.

Hysteria over hip displasia is justified. You can breed the most beautiful temperaments and the dog suffers a painful existence as do the owners. The best genetic markers are the pedigree. Breed two dogs with HD and your odds are high for hip problems. No one wants a nasty dog with good hips, but good breeders should shoot for the entire package. Anything less should not be breed. Don't buy a pup without seeing the OFA on both parents.

I would not knowingly buy a virused plant as I wouldn't buy a dog with questionable pedigree.

JMO
Jane

As a veteran canine breeder of 20 years or so, I still don't put a lot of stock into OFA or PennHip... but if the paper certificates make someone feel better, more power to 'em. I prefer to read the x-rays myself, and knowing my own bloodlines, determine from there whether or not the dog should be bred, or sent back to God for rework. The hips are only a small part of a dog... any decent breeder looks at every angle and, as I said before, keeps the big picture, or total package, in mind when breeding. We have the technology to look into the future with computer programs, and see the potential outcome of a breeding before it even takes place.

In reality, CHD doesn't genetically originate from one parent, but from both... and the alleles set up differently each time, making breeding for good hips little more than a crap shoot. Oh sure, the odds are higher for the good if you begin with both OFA Excellent sire and dam, but there's never a guarantee. Two Excellents can, and have, created offspring that failed OFA. If breeders really took breeding seriously, and responsibly, CHD wouldn't even be an issue. There are so many other genetic problems associated with today's canine that CHD is hardly worth the hysteria... back to orchids.

... back to orchids

Jane,
Regarding viruses, as I mentioned I heard it in conversation with the head of Flora Labs. They are a well known TC lab (mainly orchids, CPs and broms) in Australia and I consider the info reliable.

There is a fair amount of literature about on viral eradication via meristem propagation for many types of plants. I think most of it is based on Morel and Martin's work on eradicating virus from dahlias in the 1950's. I imagine Charm's description of sloughing of the virus is probably accurate. You don't really kill the virus. You just try to replicate the plant cells fast enough that it dilutes out the virus until you get virus free tissue that can be isolated from the infected tissue. No doubt it's very hit and miss, requires a lot of subculturing and success varies depending on the virus. You'd also need to grow out and test considerable numbers of plants to determine whether you have removed the infection. Certainly meristem culture seems to remove CyMV from Cymbidiums with reasonable success but for other genera and viruses it may not be as successful. Given most 'historical' clones are little more than museum pieces. The value in going to so much effort for a crapshoot probably limits its usefulness to most growers.

If you want to read up on it, a quick check through the literature on in vitro viral eradication pulls up a few papers:
Cybularz-Urban & Hanus-Fajerska Acta Biologica Cracoviensia- Series Botanica 48:2732, 2006 - reports increased CyMV eradication (up to 98% of explants) from a Catt following the increase of cytokinins in the propagation media. As a side note 42% of control explants were virus free after mericloning standard mericloning. OSRV counts were decreased but not eliminated. This may be why a few sources on the web specify the use of mericloning to remove viruses in Cyms.

Beyond simple mercloning to remove viruses:
Toussant et al Plant Cell Tissue and Organ Culture 32:303-309, 1993 - reports the eradication of ORSV following the addition to an antiviral to the media.

Lim et al Annals of Applied Biology 122: 289-297, 1993 - reports eradication of CyMV and ORSV via thin-section culture (both with and without the adition of an antiviral)

Or for something that's not peer reviewed but a little more user friendly:
http://trc.ucdavis.edu/egsutter/plb171/lecturespdf4/14-Virus%20elimination.pdf

{{gwi:154903}}Steven Christoffersen is of the same generation of growers as Fred Clark and Tom Perlite (Golden Gate Orchids). He has a great eye and extensive knowledge of Cattleya and Laelia breeding. He has been smaller scale but very high quality.

He was selling to the likes of Chadwick Orchids and Santa Barbara Orchid Estates. For the last two years he has been doing that less and selling on eBay (4331steven). At the same time he is expanding his growing space and has some very interesting flasks started.

My Laelia anceps 'Boulder Valley' HCC/AOS is one he had and sold to Santa Barbara Orchid Estates, which is where I bought it. This is a division of the original awarded plant, not a clone. It was developed years ago by Boulder Valley Orchids so is at least a little historical itself. I am sure there are quite a few pieces of this plant around after all these years since then. Still a very nice orchid even if not rare. We'll see what it brings on Saturday when the auction ends.

Thank you, Richard!

Wow! $980.00 was the auction final! Someone really wanted that division... I'm not up on what are considered to be the top orchids to have in a serious collection, but I will say that the flowers are lovely! I'm sure the new owner will enjoy it very much...

I bid on the plant. And I admit, I was one of the "finalist". But I woudn't go over the $1,000 hump. C. gigas "Helen de Ospina" is an extremely rare and valuable example of a "blue" gigas. Extremely well known. Stewarts (when in San Gabriel, CA) used the plant extensively. Hard pressed to find the plant anymore. Suffice to say, I didn't get the plant. And I have a somewhat of a problem of growing the gigas species. But my passion is collecting historical plants. And "Ospina" is one of them. Most known plants of this variety are most likely virused. But still can be used for further breeding. However, I am suspicious about any claims that mericloning can rid a plant of virus. It is technically possible. But extremely difficult to excise the smallest meristematic tissue without contamination. I've yet to see someone who has "freed" such plants as C. Nigella "Jungle Princess" and other rare cattleyas of virus. Young small plantlets show no signs of virus. But as the plant reaches maturity, the so-called "virus freed" plants manifest the virus. The real guarantee of virus free plant is to clone a virus free mother plant. There was a huge wave of mericloned plants in the mid to late 60s from Orchid of Orlando. They offered many rare and historic mericloned plants. But today, you don't see any one of those plants surviving today. My hunch is that the plants that were cloned were not tested for virus, and secondly, manifested virus as the plant matured. Most old varieties were virused. Any plant over 20 years old has the potential to be virused. But that isn't to say that such plants aren't valuable. I collect known virused plants for their historical value. However, if the plant is infected with a color-break virus, I have to say I have second thoughts about keeping it. It all depend on how rare the platn is. I would still try to find a relatively "clean" plant. That is to say, it doesn't manifest color break. I can live with CYMV which mostly causes the flowers to age prematurely and to develop some necrosis as the flower ages over a week or more. But the breeding potential is still there. Though one big caveat: don't use the known virused plant for pollen. Pollen from a virus plant can harbor sap or virus particles that can infect a clean plant. Use the virus plant as the pod bearing plant. Virus cannot enter the placental wall and infect seed. However, virus pollen can infect the clean plant.

Interesting... thank you for the information... I'm still at the point in learning and collecting that purchasing expensive orchids wouldn't be worth it! Time and knowledge will cure that, though, and perhaps someday, I'll not mind spending a large sum on a particular plant.