Did you mix it wrong? Which one did you use? Were your plants very dry when you fertilized? What are they potted in?

I've used it for years and never had a problem when mixed correctly. I use the MSU for pure water because I use RO.

Any fertilizer can burn roots when mixed incorrectly.

Please provide more info.

Jane

I would give it a really thorough drench type watering, plain water only. Definitely not a dip, pour the water through, pour the water through, pour the water through. That's it. More fussing will only make the problem worse.

I think that it was mixed too strong and/or used on dry plants.

Hi,

Thank you so much for your responses! Here we go: I NEVER fertilize on dry plants, I always water them first. Also, I was switching them from Peters to this MSU formula, so I was particularly careful to keep it way under 1 tsp/gallon - which is what the bottle says. Here is the label:

MSU Orchid Fertilizer by Green Care, Tap Water Special:

Total Nitrogen 19.000%
Nitrate Nitrogen - 13.6%
ammoniacal Nitrogen - 5.7%
Phosphate (P205) - 4.000%
Potash (K20) - 23.000%
Calcium (Ca) - 2.000%
Iron (Fe) - .160%
Manganese (Mn) - .080%
Zinc (Zn) .080%
Copper (Cu) .080%
Boron (B) .016%
Molybdenum (Mo) .016%

Could it be that my New York City water doesnt agree with this MSU formula?

I flushed out the compot immediately, I will flush out the others as well.

Once upon a time, I was using rain water and tap water. When I ran out of rain water, I would use tap. I used the MSU formula appropriate to the water. While using tap water, I would occasionally use other commercial fertilizer formulas. It didn't take long for many of my plants to show symptoms similar to what Julie describes.

Since I don't have a reliable supply of rain water, I discontinued using it with the MSU formula for pure water. I now use tap water exclusively with the appropriate MSU formula or other commercial formulas. The issue with plant health stopped.

Quite a long while ago(no quotes), I read that there is chemical incompatibility between the MSU formula for pure water and other formulas. Perhaps, someone with training in chemistry can take this discussion further?

--Stitz--

My friend in another state and I started using the MSU formula, and our plants seemed to thrive. Then when the fertilizer was used up we sent for more, only this time we got a different brand.

After a full year of using it we were dismayed because we were having the same problems as Julie. My friend lost about two dozen of her plants and couldn't figure out what was happening. After comparing notes we came to the conclusion that it was the fertilizer. We stopped using it and went back to Dyna-Grow and now our plants are back on track again.

We don't know what was wrong, if it was how we were using it, if the chemicals in the mix were too strong, or what. Neither of us use more than a teaspoon to a gallon once a week, and that's cut down to half a teaspoon in the winter. She has Missouri water and I use half tap (artesian well water) and half purified water. I'm inclined to believe it's the brand, since the first batch we used was okay.

What Julie said is totally true and I expect that many people may have the same problem but they didnÂt recognize it. DonÂt jump on me. Let me explain.
I want to try MSU so I bought few pounds of it from a reliable source. When I see it: "what the hell is this"? Is it a fade or homemade fertilizer? ItÂs is a mixture of coarse flakes, grain and powder. ItÂs not a uniform mixture like we see brand name fertilizers. Do you see the problems? If you shake the mixture you will see flake is at the top, grain is in the middle and powder is at the bottom (or whatever position maybe). So the first spoon you may get just N, the second spoon you get only P and the third spoon you get all K. I sent an email to seller and he explains that he bought it from a manufacture because the calcium compounds are hygroscopic so grinding it with other compounds would clog machine so the ingredients are just blended. I need to dissolve all my mixture to make a concentrated solution then dilute when use it. What he explain is true but I donÂt think itÂs the way to make fertilizer. A manufacture makes hundreds or thousands bags of fertilizer at a time. How can itÂs sure that every bag of fertilizer got the same formula by just simply blend. During transportation bags turn upside down and shake so inside a bag the mixture is no longer homogeneous. When retail sellers divide 25 pounds of fertilizer into 1 and 5 pounds then the problem is worst. That is the problem that Julie may get it. All she may get is just nitrate salt. What does your MSU fertilizer look like? I forget to tell you that I dilute my MSU and use it for my garden plants not my orchids. I donÂt want to take a risk.

I still wonder if it is something else? I've used it for years and never had a problem. I use well water in the summer (hose) for my outdoor plants and use MSU for tap on them. Indoor I use the MSU for pure water.

As far as the mix not appearing mixed, that is the case with many fertilizers. I don't think it means much of anything. If MSU were poorly mixed, many people would be complaining about their plants dying. No one would be using it. I use it on mounted plants as well as potted without a problem.

I find it an excellent fertilizer.

Jane

Thanks so much everyone - I am glad to have some corroboration from the professionals!

Highjack, your mention of Kelly's Korner rang a bell and I rechecked my label. The bottom notes "repacked by: Kelly's Korner". I bought it at the orchid show here in New York.

tcuser you certainly make some sense! My MSU is not a homogenous mixture.... there are very light-grey pellets, darker grey sand-textured grains, and blue flakes to name a few. My sense of smell isnt the greatest, but it's pretty reminiscent of chlorine.

It is devastating to to have lost even one plant, I hope that flushing my plants has stopped the damage and will keep my other plants from being hurt. I am going to flush my collection again today.

Orchid126, thank you so much for your recommendation. I will try Dyna-grow as well since you had the same problems and they have disappeared with Dyna-grow. I hope I will have the same strong results!

Interesting that your's repacked by Kelly's had pellets, etc in it. Mine was a powdery blend, all very even SMALL flakes. In fact, all three vendors I purchased the formula from was a fine powder but the one was "pink".

Brooke

I've been using from a 2 lb(?) container of MSU for a couple of years and haven't had the problems described. I'm getting a bit nervous about it now, however, as I'm down to the last couple of inches, which are soaked with the moisture the mix has absorbed. I'm thinking the chemical composition is probably nowhere near the original, and perhaps I should stop using it on my orchids. Maybe the hydrangeas and begonias would like it.

Brooke,

You mean "he who can't be named" LORD VOLDEMORT is back ???

LOL !!!

Chryss

I also order mine from Kelleys. I just placed an order last week for more. Hasn't arrived yet.

Holly you don't have to worry about fertilizer getting wet. It's a chemical composition and moisture doesn't affect it. You should see what Miracle Grow looks like by the end of the summer.

Jane

Hi Julie. I too live in NYC and use MSU fertilizer with my tapwater. The red flag for me in your post was the strength of your solution - 1 tsp. per gallon (especially for paphs). I never mix more than 1/2 teaspoon per gallon for anything. And my paphs only get it twice a month and that's during growing season after prewatering. More tolerant orchids get the same solution alternated with clear water without prewatering.

The bottle instructions don't take particular growing conditions or varying sensitivity of orchids into account.

Hopefully better late than never,

John

hi, the msu i bought is a blue crystal-like powder of uniform consistancy. the powder that got exposed to air for a while turns grey. the roots and tips of the leaves of my orchids also turned black when i used it - i thought i was doing something wrong. anyways, i have stopped using it for my orchids now.
sue

the msu i bought the first time was a blue crystal- after I used this up I got more from another greenhouse and it was gray, at that time is when all my trouble started, but I did not see that it was the msu till it was to late for some of my orchids.
the roots and tips of the leaves of my orchids also turned black when i used it - i have stopped using it for all of my orchids and returned to using Dyna-grow and my orchids look much better and are growing new roots. I water with well water... and I wonder too if the MSU is just not right for my Missouri well water.

I too tried the MSU - mine for tap water.

While this conversation has been very enlightening, I like many, stopped using it. I was using Dyna-grow with great success and then heard so much good about MSU thought I'd try it.

Going to something new, I never use the full amount, but use much less. Needless to say, it was disastrous. It burned roots, leaves and me! When I spoke of it to someone else, they told me that I should have gone with even less and allowed the plants to get 'accustomed' to it. I am much happier with Dyna-grow. Then and now.

Oh, I have a whole container short of a few tbsps of MSU to part with - now where did I throw that container?

I too, have been using MSU during which time some unexplainable symptoms showed up. Phals that had all leaves start turning yellow at once and drop off. Come to find out that I had been sold the formula for RO / pure water and I use tap. The RO is 13-3-15 with 8Ca & 2Mg and the tap is 19-4-23 with no Ca or Mg !! Possibility of calcium poisoning ? After finding that out I got MSU for tap H2O from a different source and it forms blue pills, like timed release fertilizer, from brief exposure to humidity. I have recently had 4 Phals show bad symptoms and 1 Den, 2 dropped ALL their leaves even while I flushed with RO at the first sign, and the other 2 dropped most of them, the Den blasted 2 new growths and most leaves are mixed with yellow now. I've gone back to Dyna-grow but the odd thing here is that ALL my others either are no different or took to it like ducks to water !! All 140 !! I will drop back to 1/4 tsp per gallon and use MSU only on those that seem to like it. The ONLY exception to this are my Cycnoches which are on a 1 tsp per gallon and growing like weeds as they do !! Don't think you CAN over fertilize them during their growing cycle !!!

So, my logical conclusion is that some Phals are highly sensitive to MSU and I've learned the lesson to watch carefully each plant's reaction to any change in culture and SPECIALIZE, SPECIALIZE !!

Good news is that my pulchra and lueddemanniana have shown new growth buds !! The other 2 Phals have new leaf growths, the Den ???

Chryss

Darn glad my phals can't read what you just wrote Chryss. ALL of my phals, including the 200 or so removed from flask, don't seem to mind the MSU. In fact, they appear to really relish it. I guess my rainwater is the magic bullet for the pure MSU.

Now I just need it to rain to fill up my outside container :>)

Brooke

I actually use 1/2 tsp per 2 liter bottle (save plastic soda bottles). I only have a few Phals, but I love MSU and all my plants do better on it than any other fertilizer I've tried. Had terrible results with Dyna-grow. I don't even pre-wet my plants. I do not fertilizer often, maybe every 3rd watering.

Jane

Julie, I thought I would toss in my 2 cents worth, although some of these issues have already been addressed. I purchased a 25 lb bag of the MSU formula for use on my phals several years ago. It was the 13-3-15 with 8 Ca and 2 Mg and I do have hard water. I never saw any problems, but I quit using it for the following reasons:

The material is extremely hygroscopic and forms large, hard lumps. These lumps seem to be less soluble even if you break them up with a mallet.

The lack of homogeneity makes it difficult to get small representative samples. I like to use about 0.25 teaspoons per 2 gallons every time I water. It was hard to get the same ratio of powder, crystals and pellets with each small scoop.

The 25 pound bag and the secondary container both smell like ammonia when I open them. I suspect this is from the ammonium molybdate and it may be rendering the molybdenum less available.

The calcium nitrate precipitates in my tank. I donÂt know if it is as the phosphate or carbonate as both of these ions are present, but it seems to be a problem even when I dissolve it in distilled water to make a concentrate in an attempt to work around the homogeneity problem.

IÂm not sure the basic premise of this formula is even valid. The old school thought was that urea had to be broken down in the soil before it could be used by the plant. However, orchid plants have the enzyme to convert urea directly to useable nitrogen and as a neutral molecule it can be absorbed by the leaf. There was a very informative discussion on another thread about this issue.

However, I do have a lot of commercial grower friends who use this product and swear by the results and I respect their opinions. My gut feeling is that it doesnÂt matter so long as you use a fertilizer with micro-nutrients. I have used Miracle Grow for Roses in the past with success and I currently use Better Grow by the Sun Bulb Company, supplemented with magnesium sulfate. My hard water may be supplying all of the calcium that my plants need. Anyway, these are my observations and opinions on the MSU product.

Mike

Mike, You wrote:

"...orchid plants have the enzyme to convert urea directly to useable nitrogen and as a neutral molecule it can be absorbed by the leaf. There was a very informative discussion on another thread about this issue."

Please, provide a link to this thread? I want to follow-up. This is important material!

--Stitz--

Stitz, I don't know how to link to the previous thread, but if you search for urease, you will find the information posted by painterart on Mon, March 24 of this year on this forum. He seems to know what he is talking about.

Mike

GEEZ Brooke !!
You hit the nail on the head !! It went through MY head like a " rain water bullet" !! My reaction thought was, well I would TRUST rain water way above and beyond tap !! Who knows what,when or why but "THEY" can put anything in it anytime "THEY" want to for whatever reason "THEY" can justify !!!! The point is that in the recent past there was a water main break in this wonderful metropolitan area I live in and we were all warned to "boil our water" !! Damn if that didn't skip my mind because it coincides all too closely with the instant problems with my Phals !!

I think I may have just solved my own problem here in our wonderfully controlled societal environment that is totally out of our control and in the hands of people without the responsibility of answering to any of us !!!

I LOVE THIS COUNTRY !!!

C-

There you go!

Interesting thread though,

Jane

Mike, Thanks for the reference point. I located it.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/orchids/msg032222191547.html

I see that I contributed to it, too! I vaguely remember this one. I'll reread it when my brain is receptive. Too late, now....

Stitzelweller

I'm adding my contribution to this thread very late and probably everyone is getting bored, but I think I can contribute something that hasn't been emphasised enough. My experience is based on a very limited orchid collection, but the basics still apply.
I use bottled water and a concentrated liquid orchid fertiliser, which I dilute and use at every watering, except for blooming plants that have no new growth. Last time I had to renew my supply, I couldn't find my regular brand, and had to get something else. I realised I would have to dilute it twice ("titration") as it was much more concentrated that my usual product. I made my calculations very carefully, double-checked, and STILL managed to give my orchids twice the normal dose. I realised my mistake almost immediately and future treatments reverted to normal.
So, CHECK YOUR CALCULATIONS THOROUGHLY, especially when you change from one product to another.
Judy

There you go Chryss - your very controlled societal environment WAS doing their job. Water problem = boil water advisory.

Our water supply comes from the KY river. The water is monitored constantly, and changes constantly, depending on how much water is flowing down the river. During drought, like we've had for the last two years during the summer, the water can become quite "hard" but during the rainy times, it goes back to being really great.

For anyone buying dry fertilizer in large amounts, keep the big container in a controlled environment and repackage a small amount for immediate useage. Keeping your powder dry applies to fertilizer and gun powder.

Brooke

Ideally, repackaging a big container into smaller amounts is done when the relative humidity is LOW. This procedure is only good if you are assured of homogeneity of the mix in small quantities.

Earlier this week, a renowned orchidist from Pennsylvania (whose name *escapes* me whenever I write on this Forum) gave me sage advice. Mix up a stock solution concentrate, then dilute it for use. It's a way to increase the probability that you're using a representative sample.

Of course, this isn't the first time that we've read this. It's important enough not to forget.

Stitzelweller

After reading this thread, it only reinforces in my mind that I will NEVER buy specialty fertilizers, nor dry mixes. These smaller companies simply don't sell the volume necessary to be able to maintain quality control, and, why spend more when results can be just as good (or better) for less?

For several years I struggled with Jerry's Gro (while it was available and "popular"), and was always frustrated that components of the fertilizer would precipitate out of solution, and were impossible to re-dissolve. I knew this changed the mix, and caused me to question its benefit and overall worth.

Soon after that, I started using the 7-7-7 Miracle Gro liquid African Violet fertilizer (in a purple bottle), available at WalMart for ~$2.50. The 8-ounce bottle makes 16 gallons at full-strength, or 32 gallons at half-strength. It also contains micros.

I've used it with both municipal water in south Florida, and also with well water at our new home in the Panhandle. I supplement about four times per season with Growmore Seaweed Extract.

I get fabulous results, although I would like to caution any hobbyist who thinks that his or her success in growing orchids hinges upon the quality, or lack thereof, of one's fertilizer choice. Light, water, temperature, air movement, humidity, night/day differential, etc., are all relevent, and, I would argue, more important than fertilizer.

Yes, it's possible to observe huge differences in plant growth and health side-by-side with control plants receiving no fertilizer, however, keep in mind that such experiments are usually done under conditions where other measures of cultivation are considered "optimal". If conditions are less than so, I don't believe one would see a major difference between fertilized and non-fertilized plants.

Just my two cents...

-Bruce C.

Hi, Bruce,

For the AV solution, what strength do you use for orchids - full? Half?

I fertilize plants in sphag every 3rd watering, w/ 1 watering being a flushing. Plants in bark are fertilized every other time, w/ a regular watering and a flushing interspersed.

MSU seemed great for my plants a couple of years ago, but now I'm hesitant to use it again if something else is as good and less expensive.

Thanks, Whitecat8

Hi Whitecat8 -- lately I've been lazy and fertilizing full-strength about once every three weeks or so. I know it would be better to do it half-strength every week, but there's just too much for me to remember to do around here to be that organized! :D

I begin fertilizing in April, and stop in October. Orchids are in full swing right now, so I don't have any issues with overdoing it. Also, many of my plants are mounted or in baskets, and I water heavily every two days. ("Heavily" means 30 minutes from the overhead misters -- probably about 35-40 gallons over 115 square feet.) Since my collection is in a gh, my regimen and conditions would be different than for someone who maintains their plants indoors.

-Bruce

Bruce,

Half-strength it'll be for my plants. With my compulsive color-coding system, it's easy to know what's been watered with what when.

Thanks much, Whitecat8

Color coding? Holy cow, organization never sounded so beautiful! ;-)

LOL! It was either organization or insanity, trying to remember which plants had what at the last watering: They can dry at different rates, for starters, even if, say 5 are in the same medium and the same size pots.

So, I had an excuse to get plastic plant labels in different colors and make up a code. My enjoyment of the orchids went way up.

Julie, apologies for going off-topic. As the result of people's comments, I'm not going to order MSU after all and will splurge on the Miracle Grow AV. I'd buy it for the purple bottle alone! :)

WC8

This is frightening, I ran out of my supply of MSU and use an RO system, when I went back to reorder I found a lot of sellers sold MSU type fertilizer, you had to read real close. I alternate with a seaweed mix. But I really dilute my "MSU" fertilizer. The new stuff looks like the old, but reading this one has to wonder. Years ago a commercial grower who pioneered MSU told me he used a much lower dilution because he was growing paphs, so do I, I checked mine and went to 2 tbs per 30 gallons !

I'll say it again, I use it without ever having any problems. I use RO or rain water. If you dilute it too much, you can run into nutritional problems. Sort of like taking just a 'little vitamins.' RO water contains no minerals. The fertilizer replaces them. If you are not comfortable using MSU, use a different fertilizer.

Maybe some people got bad batches. I always order from Kelly's Korner and the fertilizer looks and acts the same all these years.

Jane

For paphs and phrags you whisper the word fertilizer to them and that's about all they need. For the masde family you actually have to show them the fertilizer container twice a month.

It sure cuts down on the fertilizer expense if you would concentrate on these three families.

Brooke

Brooke,

;-)

No wonder I can never stop black tipped leaves on my some of my masdies, they get the same 1/4 tsp per gallon, every week as the rest. Maybe every third week from now on...

I don't use MSU (am considering the RO formula when I need to purchase more), but I do use R/O water and mix in @ 10-15% tap water and whatever orchid fertilizer is handy. I have rocks in the tap water here in Vandalia OH the mineral buildup in the media was really bad until I switched to mostly RO.

Has anyone had much experience with the 'liquid' MSU? I seem to prefer the liquid fertilizers as it is easier to mix. Does it produce that lumpy/solid/chunky crud in the bottle after a while that a lot of other liquid ferts produce? I've thrown several partial bottles of Dyna-Grow out for this reason.

Bob

I'm not pro this fert, or poo that fert - I use all kinds of stuff.......;o)
I mix up thirty gallons at the time in a plastic drum with a pond pump, hose and spray wand.

I've had that "crud" you are talking about Bob, build up on the bottom of my drum even in that amount of water, when it is stagnant and not in use. I've done everything from trying to mix it back into solution with a long stick, running a small air pump in the hope the bubbles would keep it mixed - to, alas - cursing. What has worked really well is a tiny water pump (like in those dinky desk top fountains) dropped in the bottom of the drum and run 24/7.
FWIW,
Pat....

Remember Bob I said show it the fertilizer container - goodness don't use it :>)

I think my masde and I have finally come to an agreement on the fert. situation with them. I use 1/4 strength twice a month and this is up from the once a month I was giving them. Weakly weekly would give me black tips in about two weeks.

The 1/4 strength twice a month means they get multiple flushings between fert. applications and so far, no black tips have appeared.

I will be one happy masde grower when last years foliage falls off.

Brooke

I'm always amazed how differently we all grow. I give my masde's 3/4 strength MSU approx once a week. They are in tree fern and I water about every other day. I hit them with fertilizer when I mix it for my other plants (which could be anything in summer.) No brown tips, no dropping leaves, lots of new growths and regular blooms. I use RO or rain water.

How could this be explained? I do grow them in higher light than recommended.

Jane

I can match you on higher light, new growths, good bloomers, no flopping/dropping foliage and also in their preferred cool, high humidity area. I grow in sphag/tree fern, clay pots and water every third day.

I wish the old foliage would drop instead of reminding me of when I treated them like the other orchids.

Brooke

Mine are also growing warmer than they should. I shut the AC off when I leave for work and when I came home tonight, the house was 88 degrees. Too hot, but they seem alright. Can't leave the AC on for just a few plants. In the past I was home and left it on in the summer, now it's just too expensive to run in an empty house.

All my cool growers are going to have a tough summer. The rest are outside basking in the heat.

Jane

Like others, my masdies struggle this time of year. My grow room can hit upper 80's to low 90's if it is really hot outside and I keep all of the lights cranking all day. We're currently hitting our first really hot spells of this summer and I have started turning off some of the hotter lights at noon on brutally hot days (+85F), I figure they'd do better with a little less light than the 90+ temps. FWIW: I grow all of my masdies in fine bark in clay pots, which are then put inside of larger clay pots. I then stuff spagh in between the 2 pots and soak the spagh 2x a week and mist the outer pots and root zones once a day, this really seems to help keep the roots much cooler in my environment.

Brooke, I have a Angle Tang that is 6-7 years old that has at least 100 leaves and has had as many as 15-20 blooming spikes at a time. It is the ugliest plant; black tipped leaves, half dead leaves, etc... but it really puts on a nice flower show throughout the year, I'd be ashamed to take a picture ;-) My 4-5 others masies aren't quite as bad and my tovernasis (sp?) doesn't show much sign of the fert burn that the others exhibit. I'd reckon' it probably depends on the particular variety as far as how well/much they can take fert???

Bob

Jane I would never have thought to pot a masde up in tree fern since this species is a moisture lover. The only thing I use pure tree fern (besides mounts) are Tolumnia which want to be dry by night.

Like you I am amazed at the different outcomes with the same plants, same fertilizers, etc. It just proves that if something isn't working for you, don't be afraid to try something different. I call it the "what if's" and am always willing to experiment.

Brooke

I've never had a problem with the MSU forumulation from Greencare (via First Ray's), but I use the the pure water version since NYC tapwater is so low in dissolved solids (except for one fairly small corner of Queens on a different water supply.) At around 60ppm TDS, not all of which is calcium, it's closer to rainwater than well-water which is what the "other" MSU formulation was created for (and that was specifically the well water used in Michigan State's greenhouses, not "average" well water, whatever that might be.) That version is also very homogenous, and a slightly gray-ish green.

One thing to keep in mind is that - in a sense - there is no such thing as "MSU fertilizer." Michigan State doesn't license a formula nor oversee anyone's manufacture, so they're all some company's or another interpretation of the published contents. Not that that matters in terms of results, but it does get awfully confusing when people refer to it as if it were a single thing being sold by everyone who labels their mixture as being "MSU."

Brooke, I was surprised also. I tend to grow all my plants in media which drains fast. Find it works for me. I like tree fern for roots which like to dry fast. Tried sphag and use a little with some which like to stay damp. But even then, I use very little.

Regarding mounts, I use baskets for mounts and will add some tree fern, cork and in winter, put a little sphag top coat to keep some humidity. I would never try mounts totally bare root. It's just too dry with the house heat. I can't get any decent humidity and it hovers between 10-18% in winter. Just too stressful for most plants. I find baskets work well for me.

Jane

Water WEAKLY weekly. Orchid fertilizer for MSU can only be used full strength once a month but if you add it with weekly waterings quarter strength only and always check your water reports. FYI, like the name implies, it's based off Lake Michigan water it is from Michigan State University. So Midwest people who have tap water from the lake, rejoice. Everybody else, do your research.