The problem is our ponds our not natural. Letting nature take its course in a small closed system that is vastly over stocked is to let the fish die, that's what nature would do. These ponds and fish could not survive in nature. Natural systems have a stocking density of 1 fish per tens of thousands of gallons and a constant flow of water. Your whole ignorance is bliss concept is asking for trouble.

If I never wear my seat belt, just because I didn't get into an accident today, does that mean its not necessary to ever wear a seatbelt??? You get away without testing the water until you don't.

Gee surfhead, my fish should all be dead according to you. LOL

The best thing to do is not overstock your pond, don't overfed your fish, and don't mess with your pond too much.

Then you will have healthy fish.

However, if you don't use good pond practices, you had better test, test, test!

Gee, Catfishsam, once you have all the qualifications in mind, you are actually agreeing with Surfhead. So why are you giving the newby bad info?? For the record I agree with Surfhead on this topic, too. Sandy

Sandy, if someone wants to test their water, then by all means they should do it.

But it is not really necessary and causes a lot of worry.

A lot of people, including myself, never test their water, and still have perfectly healthy fish and ponds.

Now what do we do after we test the pond? Well, if the ph, for example, is up, then we add some chemical. Then we check it the next day and the pH is down. So we add some more chemical. This goes on day after day.

But I guess it is good exercise and only causes minor harm to the fish, hopefully.

Me, I can find more fun things to do. LOL

DON'T MESS WITH MOTHER NATURE!

Test until you know your pond is ok. If you are so lucky as to get it right the firstime, then good for you. Not to test and then to lose fish would be bad - right? You would want to know why if it (the pond, fish) did start to struggle. TEST.

Over time the pond - depending on its particulars (size, plants, filters, blah, blah, ...) - may stabilize enough to forego testing (congrats sam).

Actually sam you NEVER alter your pH, that IS bad. Those pH up and down products should be banned. And I do agree if you do not over stock or over feed and keep the pond clean you will have fewer problems. And if you haven't had any probelms, well bully for you. But to go preaching to others that testing is a waste of time?

That "ignorance is bliss" mindset will kill a lot of other people's fish.

And just for the record we ARE messing with mother nature. The whole concept that our ponds are natural is just plain wrong. I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw a natural 1000 gallon pond with closed circulation and 10 to 20 fish in it? Natural bodies of water are millions of gallons with a constant flow of water in and out via rivers are streams and they have a very low stocking density. So simply by creating the pond we have altered mother natures plan and if we are to assume the responsibility of trying to keep living things alive in this water we need to take a few additional steps to keep things balanced.

Did anyone actually answer happee2bme's question?

"i bought the pond test strips and tested my pond..
i got:
ph level.. high
alkalinity...ideal
hardness... hard
nitrate no2...safe
nitrate no3...safe
now what do i do???"

The pH is high so what should be done?
The water is hard so what should be done?

How often should be tests be made?

Sounds to me like most people got off the subject, including myself. LOL

That is why test strips don't do much. Without actual readings its hard to say what should be done. It depends on what the manufacturer defines as "ideal" and "safe". Some may consider low levels of ammonia to be safe, but with a "high" pH even low doses can be toxic. And what is an ideal kH? 50? 80? 200? Personally I consider 80 to be a bare minimum with 150 being ideal. But if you have a bead filter 150 is actually too low.

surfhead, I think you just made my point. If it is so hard to interpret the results, why test at all?

You are really stretching now sam. TEST STRIPS do not give good results. I said in my very first response that she should throw them away. You need to use a reliable reagent test kit to get accurate and usable readings. One that will give you actual results in Parts Per Million (PPM). Reagent test kits are not expensive and very easy to use. I can test every parameter of my water in 5 min.

These general "Ideal", "High" and "Safe" results don't really mean anything without knowing what PPM numbers the manufacturer uses to define those. Also, when you pull the test strip out of the water, chemicals from one section of the strip can bleed down into the other sections skewing the results.

surfhead, does that guarantee that the person is going to have healthy fish?

That's a ridiculous question and you know it. Of course not! For the same reason that wearing a seat belt doesn't guarantee you will survive a car accident. And eating healthy doesn't guarantee you won't have a heart attack. But it helps your odds tremendously. There are no guarantees in the world and anybody that says different is selling you something.

You can be having a water quality issue and not know it. The water is clear and the fish "seem" ok. But maybe something has changed, maybe the fish have grown and are producing more waste, or you have switched foods or its an early spring. Maybe there was a spawn, or a raccoon took a dump in the pond. Maybe the oxygen levels are down from warmer weather and the bio filter is not as effective as it was a month ago. Or maybe the bio filter has consumed the kH (as is does constantly) and the pH is now unstable. No big thing if you test for this and add baking soda to increase kH and stabilize the pH....but if the kH is very low and you get a heavy rain that night???? Well, you will walk out in the morning to a pond of dead fish.

Testing the water will catch the problems BEFORE they are problems. And when you do have problems, knowing your water parameters goes a LONG way to resolving the problem quickly before thigns get worse.

wheew.....did i open a can of worms or what....:>)

yeah sorry about that happee....Your thread kinda got taken over. btw, if you have any questions about testing feel free to ask and I will do my best to help you translate the readings into practical purposes.

As for sam, I am not trying to get him to test his water, that's a lost cause. He has his system and it works for him so that's fine. But he is telling others not to test and that really bothers me. He obviously could care less if other peoples fish die from his advice.

surfhead, I have a question for you. Why are you trying to scare people into using test kits?

No, I don't want to see people's fish die either, but testing won't prevent that.

Now you seem to be an expert? How many years experience do you actually have? A month, 3 months, a year, 3 years, etc. Now be honest? It really sounds like you are a newbee or maybe just a slow learner.

I have over 20 years experience and had 8 ponds during that time.

I am also a master gardener so you can see that I am not as dumb as you try to paint me.

Testing the water is a waste of time.

Is testing the pond water a waste of time? For someone who has a good idea what to look for in a pond and fish possibly but unless you have that experience and knowledge than testing is a must. Your car has a speedometer in it so you know how fast you are going as compared to the speed limit. Once you have been driving long enough you might not have to look at the speedometer to know how fast you are going but I have found that most people think they are going one speed when they are going a different speed. The same thing is true in a pond. The testing just confirms what is going on. I probably look at over 200 different ponds a year and I usually have a good idea what's going on but I still confirm with testing.
Mike

Actually sam I am a professional koi dealer and an importer. Like Mike I have designed and serviced hundreds of ponds. I have spent years educating myself and my customers. I have spent countless hours with breeders, koi judges, Koi Health Advisers and fellow dealers discussing koi health and water quality at great lenght. I can simply look at the water and tell you most of the parameters by the sheen on the surface, yet I still test my water weekly. I am not trying to scare people, but rather trying to educate them in proper water keeping. You prefer to tell people to bury their head in the sand. I could care less what you do with your water but when you start teaching others to ignore their water parameters I feel the need to step in. There is not a single professional in the industry that will agree with you.

Wow, what an argument! I too am a ponder, although certainly not an "expert", I'm just a guy with a pond. I'd like to think it's a healthy pond: fish don't die, plants grows in the spring and summer, the water is clear, the rain fills it up and the sun evaporates it. When I first stuck it in, I too got all the testing kits, tested, analyzed, etc. What I found for the most part is that regardless of the results, I didn't do ANYTHING to the pond. If you create as close to a normal ecosystem as possible, your pond will work itself out. If you don't and you have too many fish, not enough filtration, not enough oxygen, too much sun, not enough plants, and on and on, then your pond will get screwed up, fish could die, and your water will be out of whack. Fortunately it's not rocket science. As much as I hate to agree not to test, I'd say the time that you devote to your pond is best spent looking at ways to make it as close to a "pond" environment as possible. Scoop some goop, plant a plant, get rid of excess or overly large fish, clean the filters.

Great viewpoint, Keithw!

wheew...after reading and digesting everything i think i am going to forgo the testing at least for now. i don't want to add chemicals because i did that last year and i was adding this and then that to conteract the first chemical ..etc. , etc...

i am adding hornworth ..i should get that tomorrow in the mail... i wanted to add archana but it can't be brought into CT..

so i am hoping between my 3 lillies, my bating around my filter and my hornsworth oh and my little biofilter...i didn't set that up yet...maybe this weekend. i will be able to not stay green..

i am open to any and all suggestions. i have to tell you though that all this discussing was very interesting and informing.

so if anything i did learn alot by the should i or shouldn't i banter that was done.
thank you

I am sorry you have decided to go this route. I did my best to convince you, but it's your decision. I hope it works out for you. I still suggest though that you at least have a reagent test kit handy and know how to use it. Then if there ever is a problem you can test to figure out what is going on, post the results here, and hopefully get some good feedback.

FWIW, testing doesn't mean adding chemicals. I am not a big fan of adding chemicals except to treat specifically diagnosed problems like parasites or ammonia.

ok so you are saying you don't use chemicals but if the water is lets just say..hard or to much nitrates.
what would you do? are you saying you can fix water problems without chems?

that is something i didn't know....

sometimes when there is so much info it is hard to decide what to do.

i did read about the strips and yes i did find that the colors changed as water ran down the strip.

now tell me about this tube tester...

i know you and other disagree but nobody really told me how to use the tester

what is involved..what do you do about the problems you find..should you find some.

i am so new at all this and all i know is my water is green...and i am reading if i add water ....which by the way is going down and down because of evaporation...i will continue to have green water so am i doomed to a life of green...

i know kermit says it's hard to be green and right about now i feel like kermit the frog..

Surfhead, you and Mike Ill, did your best by giving out sound information, but you know the old saying,..."and some fell on stony ground".....!
There are some who delight in gaining attention for them-self, by being totally arbitrary and argumentative, toward proven practices and plain old commonsense.
Use rule X 13.
"Horton"

ok now what is ....rule X 13?

should i know that ?..well so i am being nosey

well first off, green water doesn't mean bad water and clear water doesn't mean good water. This is one of the biggest misconceptions in the hobby. How many natural lakes do you know of that you can see more then a few inches into the water? The green water will not effect the color of the reagent test.

With testing, its just a snapshot of the pond. The test kits have simple step by step instructions which basically tell you to fill the test tube to the line, add a few drops from the test kit, shake and compare the color to the chart...thats it.

what to do with the results.....

Ammonia - you want this at 0. If you test any add an ammonia binder...its really the only chemical you need. It binds the ammonia molecule so it cannot be absorbed by the fish, yet the ammonia is still available to the filter to "feed" the good bacteria. Many dechlorinators are also ammonia binders. ChloramX and Amquel are good brands. I like ChloarmX dry as it is cheaper per gallon treated. If your tap water has chloramines (a chlorine molecule bound with an ammonia molecule) then you need to add an ammonia binder every time you do a water change because straight dechlor will remove the chlorine molecule and release the ammonia molecule into the pond. You can call the city water works and find out how they treat the water.

Nitrites...You also want this at 0. If you test any add salt to protect the fish. Apx 1 to 1.5 pounds per 100 gallons. Salt does not dissipate and can only be removed by water changes. Leave the salt in the water until you no longer test for nitrites. If you do water changes, replace the salt. Salt is not good for plants, but at the above dose they should be fine. You can get a salt test kit if you like or just eyeball it based on the weight you added....btw 1 cup is about 1/2 pound.

Nitrates.... below 10 ppm is not really an issue. You can remove nitrates with water changes.

pH - its good info to have, but very little can be done to alter it. Please do NOT ever use any pH up or pH down product. It really doesn't matter where the pH is at, so long as its stable. Koi can tolerate a very wide range of pH. The reason you need to know the pH is because IF you test ammonia, at a higher pH the ammonia becomes more toxic and you need to do a quick water change and add ammonia binder to handle the ammonia.

kH - probably one of the most important things you can test for. The kH is your alkalinity and it is the stabilizer for the pH. This can never be too high...100, 200, 300, whatever. But you never want this to be too low. If it drops too low your pH starts to go up and down veyr easily and this is dangerous for the fish. Test the kH of your tap water, if it's high, then all you ever need is a water change to raise the kH. If the tap has a low kH, then you need to add sodium bicarbonate (that's just a fancy word for baking soda). Just regular old Arm & Hammer will do just fine. Add one pound per 1000 gallons to increase kH by 70 ppm. Your bio filter will also be a LOT more effective at a higher kH. The bio filter will constantly consume alkalinity (kH) as it converts Ammonia into Nitrates. So with no water changes and no baking soda the kH will eventually reach 0. A high kH should stabilize the pH right around 8.3.

gH - not really a very important number and there is really very little you can do to alter it. But its handy to know your tap gH because it effects the colors of the koi and it can direct you on what colors to look for when buying koi. If you have really hard water, buy fish that have more black. Soft water, buy fish with more reds. There are things you can add to raise the gH, but nothing will lower gH except water softener equipment usually used in homes.

You can test for Dissolved Oxygen if you want, usually its a separate test kit. Its handy in the hot months as there is less O2 in the warmer water. But really just keep an eye on the fish, if they are gasping at the surface then you need to do something about the O2 levels. Also, if you have ammonia that simply won't go away, increasing the O2 levels might make the bio filter more efficient.

Also, I see above that you have not set up the bio filter yet. Without a bio filter it is even more imperative to test the water. Also, more frequent water changes will be needed until the bio filter is not only set up, but fully cycled. This is a good opportunity for you to watch the cycle happen first hand. Basically when ammonia is present, bacteria will occur naturally that will convert the ammonia into nitrites. Once nitrites are present a new bacteria will develop that will convert nitrites into nitrates. While it cycles, you will first see an ammonia spike and as ammonia comes down the nitrites will rise and later as nitrites go down the nitrates will rise. Once you have zero ammonia, zero nitrites and some level of nitrates, the filter is completely cycled. None of these stages will cause problems for the fish if you take steps to protect the fish.

If you have plenty of O2 and the kH is high and you can never seem to get rid of ammonia, then your filter is too small for the fish load. Try feeding less, removing a few fish or buying a larger bio filter. Yet another thing you will never know if you don't test.

happee2beme, don't worry about rule X13, it does not apply to you in any way.LOL
Just follow the great advice you have been given from Surfhead and Mike.
"Horton"

Geez, I swear that I am normally not an argumentative sort, but a lot of this testing hyperbole is really really overkill. Firstly...Surfhead, you say a few posts above that you do not like adding chemicals, but then directly above you tell us about a slew of different tests to perform and then chemicals to add to correct the "imbalances". Yes salt is a chemical as is baking soda. And a pea green pond may be perfectly healthy but it's not a whole lot of fun to sit next to one in yor backyard! Lets be honest, if you build a little bitty pond and stick a bunch of one foot Koi into it, it ain't never gonna be right. You can test for water imbalances and add as many bio filters as you want, but you are as far from fish utopia as you can get. My argument is that if your test results are too far out of the norm, then your pond is probably also visably hosed up. You shouldn't even need the test results to tell you that.

Gee, Surfhead, you write just like Horton. You are even as verbose as he is.

Now why is that? LOL

I think it's a good idea if everyone who keeps live fish or animals in their ponds or water gardens tests their water and learn something about pond water chemistry and what those test mean even if they never have to do anything about it. As has already been stated, kh (total alkalinity) can help stabilize your pond's PH, and ammonia, and nitrite levels are the killers and can quite easily be a problem in small overstocked pond, and or ponds with a lot of decaying plant mater.
That being said I will admit that I don't bother to test my pond anymore because my values are just too predictable, and I have a system that seems to work and so I'm able to abate any potential problems. If noticed something out of the ordinary going on, like dieing fish, I would certainly not hesitate to test my water again.
Surfhead certainly gave some good water chemistry info as is the link that Loma Ponder posted, but from the test results happee posted it doesn't sound like anything is particularly "hosed up", or needs to be done.
Just to knock this thread a little more off track I wanted to say how much of a kick I get out of how often people refer to a "natural" pond as being an ideal thing, the touchstone we should all be striving to attain with our own ponds and I gota say, I just don't agree with this concept.
Now maybe the ponds in other parts of the world are always clear and pristine, but around here they are for the most part closed systems that suffer the same sorts of problems that our closed system ponds do, only on a much worse scale because they lack something that our ponds (hopefully) do not, and that is good circulation. For instance, a natural pond I was looking at just yesterday which supports a lot of the typical local pond life was about 30% covered in a thick algae mat. The pond is full of natural debris and the bottom is several feet thick with decomposing muck that gives off a sulfur smell if you disturb it. I would imagine that if one was to start testing the water in there you would find all kinds of other problems that would be considered unacceptable in our backyard ponds, and yet this is pretty typical for the natural ponds around here and they all support a huge variety of life, frogs, turtles, sunfish, birds, ducks, etc...
In contrast, my backyard pond has no algae floating on it, the muck on the bottom is measured is probably less than an inch at the moment, the water is clear and fresh and gets re-circulates about once an hour or better and gets frequent water changes. As a whole I would have to say my back yard pond is much healthier and yet it probably doesn't support nearly the diversity of life that the "natural" ponds do.
Go figure?

Hi! This was my experience.Last spring our koi started flashing.1by1 every day more and more.We went to a local pond store and bought a test kit not the dipstick kind.Our nitrates were to high.Added salt as reccomended and did several small h2o changes.This took care of the problem.The lesson I learned is that there is a lot I did not know about h2o conditions and fish health and I am still learning.Do a lot of reading and research and ask ?'s You will get differing opinions consider it all.

Keith, every professional, vet, breeder, and AKCA trained Koi Health adviser will tell you the BEST way to protect koi from toxic nitrites is to add salt. Nitrites are highly toxic to all fish. In a well established system nitrites are not much of an issue and salt is not needed, but happee has a brand new bio filter and nitrites will definitely be a problem for her in the beginning. Whether or not salt is a "chemical" is up for debate, but since the koi's internal system has a saline content of .9% and the above prescribed saline content is .1% to .15% I wouldn't really classify it as a "chemical". All natural bodies of water including freshwater lakes and rivers will have a saline content of some level. So is it a chemical? I guess, but then again when you break things down to their molecular structure, what isn't? There are true bottled chemicals you buy off the shelf to handle nitrites, but I did not recommend those.

With the kH and ammonia, these are key issues that can be very dangerous. I recommended Baking Soda only if the kH of her tap was too low. Most taps have a decent kH. A pond MUST have alkalinity if koi are to survive for any length of time. Again there are bottles you can buy off the shelf that will raise the kH of a pond, but baking soda is simply the best. And again every vet, breeder, KHA and professional in the industry will agree with me on this.

Mucky, most natural ponds have some sort of inlet and outlet with a constant flow of fresh water in and out. Sometimes it is underground or coming from the water table, but they are there. Also, any natural pond, no matter how small will not naturally have the stocking density of our ponds. Most natural systems have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of gallons, per fish. Lastly, wild fish have a FAR greater immunity system then our koi which have been selectively inbred for centuries. Wild fish thrive in water quality that would mean certain death for our pets. So not only do our ponds not exist in nature, neither do our fish.

got hot in here for awhile. surfhead, Mike, horton are, IMHO, reasonable contributors, usually with measured responses and good follow-up questions when a person needs help. i would also say surfhead is the most passionate (duh!). Thanks you, trio.

TESTING - I test regularly in spring & fall when I think the pond is susceptible to issues, infrequently otherwise.

SALT - if used should NOT be kitchen salt, right? needs to be sea salt or other natural salt w/o additives (iodine) - yes?

thomba.you are correct on the salt I did not use table salt I used salt purchased from a pond store.I was told salt reduces fish stress and mine were very stressed, have not used it since.

First off let me apologize to Mucky. You had some positive things to say in your post and I should have acknowledged that.

Second, yes I am passionate. And if I come off as being over zealous I'm sorry. But please understand, this time of year I get on average 2-3 hobbyists a week contacting me either by phone, in person or on the web with sick, dying or dead koi. So I go down the list of standard questions about their pond and filtration and 9 times out of 10 one or all of the following are true:

1) They have a rock bottom, skimmer only pond.
2) They are vastly overstocked
3) They have no idea what their water parameters are and don't own a test kit.

Then I come here and people like Sam are telling newcomers to the hobby that they don't need to test the water...ever. And that testing is just a waste of time. Well it just drives me a little nuts. I guess one could say I should just let their fish die so they will come buy more from me, many dealers out there do just that. But I don't see it that way. I would much rather have them become educated hobbyists and enjoy their koi. I would rather they go back to their koi clubs and tell others that they got good info and healthy fish from me.

But I will say this. I don't do all 6 of the tests I listed above every week. I almost never test gH. Maybe once or twice a year just to see if the city has changed the water one me. I also almost never test nitrates. Maybe 2 or 3 times a year. Because a) they are relatively harmless to the koi, b) I do frequent water changes so nitrates stay low and c) all my tanks and ponds have TT filters with spray bars to gas nitrates off. So I never really test higher then 5ppm. Also, I rarely test pH. Mostly because I am not going to add anything to the pond to alter it anyway and if the kH is high then the pH is stable and that's all that really matters. I will test pH if the kH is low and I test ammonia at the same time. The reason I test pH then is because if the kH is low and the pH is low and I have ammonia (all three almost never happen at the same time) I want to take care of the ammonia before I raise the kH. The reason for this is ammonia is more toxic at a higher pH and if I raise the kH first it will bring the pH to 8.3, making the ammonia a bigger problem then it was.

So anyway, I do test weekly for ammonia, nitrites and kH and it takes me maybe 5 min. The rest are tested far more infrequently. And I suppose if somebody has a very stable and a well established system, their fish aren't growing anymore, no new fish have been added, the food and amount fed hasn't changed, the pump was never clogged or lost power, the temps have been stable, they do frequent water changes and everything has been pretty constant, they can probably get away with less frequent testing, maybe just monthly. But to NEVER test the water? Well that's just begging for trouble IMO.

thomba, use non iodized salt. although most salt is non iodized now a days, even the stuff at the market. The best is water softener salt. Usually 99.6% pure salt. You can get it at lowes or home depot for around $4 for a 40 lb bag. You can use that "pond salt" if you want but you are paying a 300x mark up for the same product with a fancy label.

btw, salt does not directly "reduce stress". actually its an irritant. What is does is force the koi to grow additional slime coat as a reaction to the irritant. When koi are stressed they shed their slime coat which is thier natural immune system and protection againt attacks from aeromonas bacteria and parasites. By forcing them to grow a heavy slime coat you are increasing their defenses and they can calm down. You can buy "stress relievers" that do pretty much the same thing, but salt is better and doesn't coat the gills like the store bought products do.

ok i am now reading do a water change.

i think i read somewhere on the board that when you add water you are increasig the risk for more alge ..so of course my question would be do i add water from the tap.

if not from the tap from where do i get it.

i was rinsing my filter sponges under the faucet but again i read not to do that but rinse from pond water.

well i do that ...from my green ...green water...(to me it feels like rinsing clean clothes in drty water) but i do it.

now do i place my water sump pump on the bottom of the pond or do i have it in the middle or what..

than do i use the faucet to fill?

i know this all sound silly to you but i am so so confused.

you all seem to have so much more understanding...yes all of you....maybe you all do it a bit different but you really all do the same thing...so i am coming to you all for help.

i do not have fish as of yet and don't know if i ever will.

i had feeders in my pond when i first started about 5 yrs ago but last year i added what was supposed to be good for fish and plants to clear the green and it killed my fish that had grown from 1/2 " to about 4"long and 1/12 " wide.

right now i just want clean , clear water......thanks

Hey Surfhead
Actually your comments about natural ponds actually supported the point I was trying to make. You said "any natural pond, no matter how small will not naturally have the stocking density of our ponds." and "Wild fish thrive in water quality that would mean certain death for our pets."
The point I was trying to make is that most of the "natural" ponds I see locally have water conditions far worse then most people have in their backyard ponds. The main reason being is that many natural ponds have very poor circulation. Yes it's true that the water table allows a small amount of water to leach in and out, but that hardly compares to our ponds which are often set up to completely turn over every hour or better.
In order for water to stay fresh and healthy it needs to stay moving, you need an actual flow not just seepage, and that is where many of the natural ponds that I see fail to live of to the high stature that they are often given in this forum.

As far as testing goes, it's kind of like medical tests that are done on us humans. Urine tests, blood tests, blood pressure, heart rate, temperature, etc,,,, . It's all good info to know, and if you feel something is not quite right it's certainly it would be a good idea to get some or all of these tests done to see what's going on, but healthy people for the most part don't bother until they start getting signs that something may be wrong.
My pond is like my healthy, active teenage son, I just don't feel the need to send him to the doctor for tests, but if he was turning green like happee2bme's pond I would certainly rush him in.

happee2bme, you are confused?

Now I wonder why? LOL

You have been wind-bagged by great koi expert Surfhead. True there wasn't a lot of quality there, but there was a lot of quantity. LOL

I feel sorry for you having to endure this windbad, but there are some really great people on here that will help you.

We had one of these Shurfhead guys in our Master Gardening Group. Every time we had a meeting he would start running his mouth off and trying to impress everyone with his great knowledge. The Extension Agent would have to tell him to shut up. Of course, the windbag was hard of hearing too so he would keep right on talking. LOL

Finally he up and died and everyone rejoiced.

So just skip Shurfhead's long and tedious writings. He really isn't interested in helping you.

As far as him being a koi expert, I know a koi expert real well. He works at Walmart selling fish and is 16 years old. Just ask him and he will tell you all kinds of things about koi. He is a wellspring of misinformation, just like old Shurfhead. LOL

Hopefully someone will come along and give you some help, if old windbag Shurfhead doesn't monopolize the whole conversation.

Catfishsam!!Stop it I can't stop laughing!!

Surfhead,you write "salt does not directly reduce stress".You explain how it works indirectly you made my point. Same end result.

yes christi, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just clarifying your statement. Salt does work indirectly to reduce stress and the end result is the same. But initially it is an irritant. The reduction in stress comes later.

As for sam, well I have learned that often when somebody has no factual argument to make and has been proven wrong with true data, they turn to personal attacks because that's all they have left. You will notice sam, in all my "windbag" responses, I never personally attacked you, I just said you were wrong.

yes, mucky I do see your point. Our ponds do in fact have fewer parasites and other little nasties. But our fish are biologically weaker as well and require better water. But our ponds don't have a constant source of fresh water unless they are on well water with a flow through. Breeders mud ponds have very little circulation as well and you can never see more then a inch down. But they have a slow flow through like a natural pond. So while natural ponds may appear to have low circulation, they are rich in vitamins and minerals that our ponds are lacking. Our ponds do circulate, but it is a closed system.

Happee, you of course have to add from the tap unless you have well water. Just remember to dechlor. Tap is a poor substitute for natural well water, but there is little most of us can do about that. And if your tap is high in phosphates green water may plague you. And you are also correct that you wash the pads in pond water because the chlorine in the tap will kill the bacteria very quickly. You can use tap, just put it in a bucket and add dechlor first. But honestly, the test results won't tell you how to remove green water. As I said before, green water is often healthy water. And according to the article posted above (a tough read but very informative) algae will kill itself off because as it dies it produces an antibody that will kill other algae cells. What that antibody requires is suitable surface area to grow and your bio filter is very good place for this. So according to the author, the bio filter can serve a dual purpose. The author also made mention that Barley, as it decays, produces a similar antibody, so perhaps that is worth a try? But really the best way to quickly remove algae is a UV filter, but without fish I'm not sure if this is worth the expense. I would install the bio filter, add lots of plants, maintain constant circulation and let it clear on its own. Water changes won't make the algae worse (unless you have high phosphates) but it won't make things better either.

Surfhead, did it occur to you that there are others on this forum?

You constantly try to monopolize the remarks with long windy know it all statements.

When someone else comments, you put them down as you have done to me over and over.

So don't try act holier than thou. You are a phony all the way.

I doubt you even have a pond. If you really do, which is doubtful, then show us some pictures of those wonderful koi and great ponds you have?

If you are a koi dealer like you claim, how many fish do you sell a week or do you really work at Walmart?

So fess up and be honest for a change?

Again with the personal attacks sam. I know you are trying to tempt me into attacking you back, but it's not going to happen.

Do you have anything useful to add to the conversation? I never put you or anybody else down down, I simply said you were giving bad advice. The type of advice that has killed countless millions of pets.

Are we not here for discussion? What exactly have I done that is so wrong? Share true hard facts about water quality? Perhaps I am long winded, but that is only because I have much to share. I have spent years studying and learning and I feel a responsibility to help educate others. Why? Because I am so tired of hearing about peoples beloved pets dying when the right information could have gone a long way to saving them.

Bash me personally if you must, because that's really all you have left to offer.

I agree with surfhead on this. If you have a testing regimen then you know your baselines for your pond. You see the fish acting off and you test the water and 9 times out ten it's the water causing the issue.

All of the info he states can be found on koivet or the AKCA sites. Read the nishikigoi international board sometime if you want an informative detailed discussions between some real koi eggheads then tell me how long these posts here really are :)

Happee,
I would look into any or all of these plants for the green water (I'm not sure which are legal where you live H=hardy T=tropical): Yellow flag iris (H), cattails(H), water hyacinth (T), water lettuce (T), and parrots feather(T). All tend to be fast growers that will out compete algae. Hornwort is pretty good but it takes a while to get a good bunch going. I have some yellow iris (big plants) and parrots feather for postage if you want (and they're okay to own there). Just send me an e mail...

Adrea

happee2bme,

"First, I'm relatively new to this thing (Pond since August, 2006 - Started planning since 2/2005 and I still didn't getting it "just right"). So weigh my comments as such.

Here's my three cents (aka my understanding - right or wrong) on answering your last post: (My wording to your questions.

Q: Does tap water add nutrients?

Yes it does, they are just held in check until the chlorine evaporates. All bodies of water have nutrients floating in them (even bottles water - they just trace amounts). A good way to combat the possibility of the nutrient feeding the algae is to "cut them off at the pass" by: plant coverage (see link attached) and having a healthy bio-system going to grab those nutrients up. (re read that article I sent you in my first post)

Q: Flushing with tap vs. pond water.

Once again chlorine plays a part in the tap water. Its job is to kill nasties in the water so you and I can use it for drinking. Unfortunately, it also causes collateral damage to the good bacteria. By flushing your system with tap water you will not kill all the bacteria, but they will take a hit and send your bio-filter system back close to "square one". Use pond water to flush. At first it may run green, but over time the system will filter out the gunk and start to clear with each flush. (Note: Just do not flush too much or your system will not have time to establish itself).

Q: placement of the sump pump

If it were me, I'd put the sump pump off the bottom a little bit (so it will not suck in debris that would clog) and farthest from my water feature (down wind) By doing this you are including your whole pond in the circulation process.

"i do not have fish as of yet and don't know if i ever will.

i had feeders in my pond when i first started about 5 yrs ago but last year i added what was supposed to be good for fish and plants to clear the green and it killed my fish that had grown from 1/2 " to about 4"long and 1/12 " wide."

My understanding is anytime you add a "chemical" to your system, it is GOOD idea to add extra aeration.

"right now i just want clean , clear water"

Yeah, me too. It has been close to a month since my pond system has been "altered" I salted, flushed my barrel filters, still working on getting my skimmer back on-line, and I am in the process of attaching an UV unit.

All this and the local koi club wants to put my pond in the koi tour in October. The look on the chairwoman's face when she stop by, on short notice, to see my pond with presently green water and "without its make-up" - priceless.

"......thanks"

For what my suggestions are worth, you're welcome

LP

Here is a link that might be useful: How Many Plants Do I Need To Add to My Pond?

thank you all for your help...

surf & cat you 2 remind me of my sons...i get a giggle each time you write....

you both are trying to help and both seem to say the same thing but different ways...so i kiss you both on the cheek for all the aggrivation this thread has caused you...

now shake hands and have a drink.... :)

my town water doesn't have chlorine in it..the only real problem with is it crystalizes when dry..like in my plants i have hard crystals...so i don't know if this is a cause for concern...

i am going to cean my filter again today it seems like i am changeing the batting and rinsing the sponge at least 1 x a week is that to much...

also loma i will check with my state to see if i can use those plants.. thank you for the offer

Thanks Adrea. Yes those posts go on for pages and pages, stuffed with scientific jargon and abbreviations. Perhaps I have spent too much time there and can no longer condense my points into 10 word answers. But as heated as those posts get, its always a respectful debate between peers. (well usually) Much is gained by this I think.

Happee, I have nothing against Sam and hold no grudges. I don't think I have said a single harsh word towards him in this thread. I highly disagree with what he is telling others to do, but I think I made that abundantly clear already. ;-)

Surf - thanks for the persistence, knowledge, passion.

Sam - thanks for the entertainment.

Mucky - medical analysis is a good one. We should all get regular check ups. More TESTING when needed, as surf says - check the things you know are important or suspect.

Happee, just keep reading this forum and you will be able to pick out the folks who seem to really know their stuff(mike, horton, surfhead) and some who may not always be right , but are passionate and really know how to stir up discussion and keep things entertaining(hi Sam!) :o)
These passionate dsiscussions are sometimes the best way to get lots of good info! Good luck!
~Kevin

kevin, you are so right .. i have to say this was the best thread i have ever read....

you can see the love of ponds in all the "conversation".

i have read each one and learned a whole lot of information..

i can't wait until i am as knowledable...well at least a little....as the people here.

thank you all...

gee i wish i had another great question to ask ...just so i can see the information flow out ....