Samuel,
Angraecom leonis grows from sea level to 1500m, making it a warm to intermediate grower. At the higher altitude end of its range, it would be happy with day temps in the upper 60s to low-70s, with nights about 10 degrees cooler. It seems to be a popular misconception that Madagascar is all hot and steamy. It is not, and has many cool-intermediate to cool growers as well, and also some orchids which thrive in areas that are near desert.

Fortunately, Ang. leonis grows in this wide variety of climate zones so usually does very well in cultivation under a variety of conditions. As for humidity, please don't get carried away. I can even grow wet cloud forest Pleurothallids without dryness problems at 50% humidity as long as I keep the media moist. My leonis is bareroot mounted on a slab of cork and spends its winter at about 65F during the heat of the day and roughly 55-60F at night. It gets bright diffused light when the sky isn't overcast -- which it frequently is.

Good luck.

i have my plants under a flourescent light fixture for now, a T-5 5000 lumen bulb if i need to get another or more powerful . all of my plants were okay outside and they thrived. so i need to learn the balance of watering? do i not water it at all in winter? the woman at cal-orchid said whenever you can stick your finger down to the second knuckle and barely sense moisture to water it. and she said its okay to do this now. can you explain what i should do for rest? i really never got to clear of info on that aspect of growing. if these things could get cleared up i think things would go better. i also have it on top of a saucer of lava rock and water.

Samuel, CJ Watson is a very knowledgable orchid person, and she has often said she answers all email questions she gets about orchids.

Why not email her thru GW (just click her name and there is a way there on her page to reach her thru email), and ask her about the "rest" question? You will get good, clear answers from her on this.

CJ has answered dozens and dozens of questions of mine for several years -- questions that no one else had an answer to. She is very generous with her knowledge of orchids.

Samuel- a 5000 lumen bulb is the type of bulb (or bulbs?) you have but isn't exactly telling us where your orchid is placed under the bulb and how many fc's its receiving. Is it a tube? Is it being assisted by any natural light? Do you have a light meter or a reading? What is the run time? There have been numerous recent discussions on larger cfl's. Take a look. It can give you some idea of what some of us do to get orchids through an upper zone winter. They are more energy efficient and higher fc's than tubes. 90% of orchid ailments are caused by lack of light.

I suspect that lack of heat and air is what blasted the bud. Probably a lack of light too. If it survived this long it is more than likely an issue in your environment. Visualise a sunny day in Africa. Your other plants have been existing on energy that has been given to them by having them outdoors during summer. The leonis just came from a g/h. At this time of year; indoor growers in upper zones begin to see a rapid deterioration of their plants. The plants are running out of gas, so to speak. This is why lighting and indoor care is critical in winter. Orchids can be severely compromised in winter; sometimes to the point where recovery is impossible. You are noting changes. Your observation skills are good. In short, yes, something is out of balance in your situation.

Most orchids require a winter rest or a substantial reduction in water, possibly some other culture changes. Each orchid is different in that respect. Whitecat8 posted about winter rest last year. The thread was fantastic. Baker's (link below) is ~1$ a sheet and will give you all the detailed information you need to know about your orchids. leonis is very dry. In habitat leonis receives no water in December, humidity is down. Heat is as you would imagine Madagascar.

You are an indoor grower in a Northern climate; A whole different animal from a g/h. They can be comparable with some effort. An occasional misting will do in your present conditions. I'm not inclined to agree with the advise that was given to you. If you start to see changes in the leaves then pick it up a little. They should be light very brightly in winter but water for most cultivated plants should be reduced. I'm not sure what the lava and water is for? If this is an attempt to boost humidity its likely not worth the effort. You mentioned you had a humidifyer. That should do.

Clara

it is a tube, all plants are no less than 5 inches from the tube its just one. i plan to get another but the cfl you got looks tempting. i admit im still putting two and two together with some of my plants but all seem to be good i see active root growth in all(not the Ang)and even some new growth! i feel im doing things right but there are some holes! lol. i will have to look at your post about your lights clara and see about getting one. my room i bright and the plants are next to a window but not the brightest one. i have to wait for my bro to move out before i can fully utilize the max amount of light that comes in. his side of the room has the full sun south facing window. i really appreciate all the advice from *All* of you! i know that there are people on this thread who are orchid elders so to speak.

Samuel, growing orchids is a lifetime learning experience, which is why I think it keeps its fascination. Nothing like a challenge to keep you interested, and there is always something new to learn.

While I certainly agree with Clara that the Baker's sheets are still relevant in many ways, they are often a bit out of date and so much more is known about the various species now than was back then. For example, the 1997 Ang leonis sheet, while stating that this species grows from sea level to 900m (it is now known to grow to 1500m), only gives the conditions for an elevation of 29 meters (96') and ignores the majority of plants growing up to almost a mile higher in altitude. In the tropics, elevation controls temperature, and it's a lot cooler a mile higher up. It is this broad range of temperatures and conditions that leonis grows in in the wild that makes it so amenable to different cultural conditions. In other words, they don't have to have hot, sea level, Vanda temperatures to do well since most of them don't grow that way in the wild.

I always try to use up-to-date information and books, like Joyce Stewart's new book, "Angraecoid Orchids" published last year by Timber Press, which has become the current 'bible' of Ang growing, surplanting Hillerman's excellent but much older book. Most of the time, you can only go so far with older books and culture sheets which often lack new research and information.

Of course, if the plant ONLY grows at more or less the noted specific location and altitude, you can always depend on Charles Baker (Margaret's death a few years ago was such a sad loss for the entire orchid community) for accurate climate conditions since he is a retired meteorologist who managed to got hooked on the orchid hobby and then went on to contribute so much to our knowledge.

Many of our best orchid books and online informative websites have come from hobbyists with little actual education in the botanical field. As a very short list, Dunsterville was an oil company engineer, Birk is a restauranteur, O'Byrne is a retired UK school teacher, Jay Pfahl (Online Orchid Encyclopedia) is a jeweler, Arthur Holst is a retired linguist, Fowlie was a medical doctor. And fortunately for all of us, they went out of their way to share their accumulated knowledge with their fellow hobbyists.

Now, to correct an inaccurate assumption posted below about GH vs. indoor culture, the numbers are what makes it work or not work. If you have the same intensity of light, the same temps, the same air circulation and the same humidity, it doesn't matter in which location you are growing; the numbers don't lie. There is no magic operating here. Since I don't live in a tropical climate, I have the heat on in the winter in the GH and have to raise the temperature each night 20-40F+ degrees to get it up to the 60F I want for my plants. I have the same potential for problems with dryness that most home growers have (remember, greenhouses aren't insulated like people houses so the heating has to work harder to raise the temperature). I grow many orchids under lights because the GH can be dark and dull in the winter with our foggy mornings and many gray days. The cooler temp and slower drying of media host a variety of orchid diseases that I have to stay on top of, just like home growers, and I have to use a couple of fans 24/7 to keep air circulating at just the right amount. The main difference as I see it is I can use a garden hose to water, which wouldn't do well in a house.

Growing inside a GH doesn't automatically make you a better orchid grower, nor does growing inside a house make you any less of an orchid grower. It's knowing what conditions your plant wants and how good your understanding is and ability to provide them that counts. As I said, there is no magic involved, just good (up-to-date) knowledge of the habitat the plant comes from and a bit of ingenuity in providing somewhat similar conditions. I come here for the ingenuity part; I love the free flow of ideas and solutions here at the forum.

Samuel, I will put together some information and explanations about the different types of "rest" some orchids take in the wild as soon as holiday things get settled down a bit. I really need someone to volunteer to load the dishwasher and spot treat the tablecloth and napkins before they get popped into the washer, and to do something with all this gift wrap scattered all over the house ... you know, cats LOVE to play with bows, found one in the toilet already -- bow, not cat.

Well for one thing that 5000 lumen tube isn't enough. even if you had 2 together it would be questionable . for very high light Orchids you'll do better with CFL's than tubes. Tha 5ooo lumen output is spread out along the length of the tube, but with CFL's you concentrate the light considerably. With your high light Orchids I would look online for 65 to 85 watt cfls in the 5100K range. look back through the last 4 pages for posts about lights, you'll find a lot of good info and a couple of good sources for the CFL's you need.

The biggest difference between greenhouse growing and indoor growing is that the one-foot sweet spot near the window indoors is greatly extended. I get a whole room full of great light.

There are no "perfect growing conditions", only the perfect orchid for the conditions I have. Selecting orchids to fit my conditions is the key to success.

That is not to say that I have never acquired an orchid and looked up what it needed when I got home. I do the best I can with those and if they die I don't replace them.

Did some posts get deleted from this thread or is it my imagination?

Kevin

It's OK Kevin, you are not cracking up.

POOF - like magic.

Brooke

Hey, no fair. Just when it was gettin' fun.

Oh cj, it's been a long time since I've been tempted by another orchid book. And just when I thought it was safe...

John :>)

John, I recommend you buy it soon before it goes out of print and the price triples. Amazon has a good price for it right now. MrBreeze told me about it before it was even published so I could get on the waiting list. Definitely worth every penny if you are interested in these plants.

why does this always happen on my posts? ohh well how much is the book? i saw it before and it was like 75 dollars and i said see ya later! but maybe i will have to pick it up! is there any way i can take it out at a library? my ang is producing another bud and if i doesn't blast ill be happy! but if it does there is always next year right. when the spikes are exahusted do i cut them of just leave them to shrivel? (Man i cant spell!)

I seem to be heading in the ang direction. I might have to look into that book as well

It's a good book, over 400 pages and hundreds of photos of even obscure species. I doubt you will ever see it for less than the $48 Amazon wants for it.

Samuel, you will have to check with your library to see if they have it. My public library would never have anything like this but yours may be much better. If you have a local orchid society, they may have bought one for their reference library that society members can borrow.

Cj, are you really suggesting that greenhouse growing and indoor windowsill growing in the North are the same?

I have to assume you are joking.

Jane

terpguy, you wrote: "I DO hit the confusion point with one plant, my Laelia anceps. It unfortunately spikes every year right when it has to come in for the winter and as a result the spike always blasts."

With your name and zone 7, I assume that you live in the vicinity of Md. It is quite normal for your L. anceps to spike when it does. The US Botanic Gardens (in DC) always has a magnificent display of L. anceps during early winter. Knowing that your plant is strongly seasonal when flowering, perhaps you can try bringing it indoors a little sooner to avoid a drastic environment change as the spike develops?

Also, I have fans running in my indoor growing areas (not GH) 24/7/365. I have learned through the years that it makes a HUGE difference. The plants respond with a generally healthier condition. It also makes the atmophere more pleasant for the humans, too!

--Stitz--

Everyone thinks growing in a greenhouse is a picnic. It's not. Just like growing in your home, it's a controlled environment. Unlike growing in your home, there are extreme variations in temp, humidity, sunlight, dampness, dryness, albeit some deliberate, but all a fight with mother nature, as it's not naturally as controlled as your home. Greenhouses have a very precariously balanced ecosystem. They have to be heated in winter, cooled in summer, shaded in summer (but to what degree to balance light and cooling?), fans running all the time and lighting in some. Most greenhouses also have various "zones" that have to be maintained based on the plants in that area. They need backup systems for everything and alarms so if the heat doesn't work in the middle of the night you don't find out about it the next morning when it's too late. Let's not forget pests, diseases, rot. Give them an inch and it's too late. There is no swabbing with rubbing alcohol to eradicate pests. By the time you've got one plant swabbed, the greenhouse is overrun. Oh, and forget long vacations. You can take the dog to a kennel, let a neighbor look in on the cats and birds, stick a bale of hay out for a horse but a greenhouse...

Frankly, it sounds like too much work to me. Rewarding yes, but I wouldn't want the headache.

I'm sure there are points I've missed, since I don't have a greenhouse, these are the ones I've picked up on just talking to people who do have greenhouses.

Windowsill growing is a whole lot easier because, as CJ stated, the only real difference is you can get water on the floor. Greenhouses are a major investment and only a fool thinks maintaining one is easy.

stitz you are correct. Unfortunately an experiment somewhat related to your suggestion inadvertantly froze my plant a couple weeks ago so I don't have to worry about it now :)

POOF - more magic.

Brooke

Why has Mr B's excellent post been deleted?

Well, I'm glad I got to read it before it disappeared. It was, as arthur says, an excellent post.

Clarified a lot of issues about what might be causing the Ang buds to spoil, too.

Hmmm, it would seem that either someone has VERY thin skin, or REALLY doesn't like general Ang growing info. How Odd.

Maybe Samuel got a copy of my post via email? If so, perhaps he could copy/paste it back?

That was a good post too. seems the spector of spike still looms waiting to strike

Supposedly a certain person and her alter egos have had their IP addy blocked. Psychotics may have a very thin skin. Not sure about Samuel but would hope not as he was just asking honest questions.

I can't imagine anyone not liking Ang growing info - I was learning so much from your informative post. Why now I'm even considering getting my own Ang leonis because it was so detailed.

Brooke

I liked MrB's informative post so much - I copied it! I see an Ang leonis in my future as well Brooke!

Its another Christmas miracle! Ang leonis for everyone!!!
Hooray!

I firmly believe that Angs, and Angs alone, are the one thing in the universe with the pure power to unify all of us. Let us cast aside our petty differences and embrace Angs as one! Can I get a collective kumbahyah? May spiritual lemurs (a great name for a band, by the way) bring us all blessings of Angs in the new year.
-MB

Angs for us all MR.B!!

We'll need a support group!!

LOL! Mr B's a support group all by himself. :)

Yes thats true Mehitable...
BUT...
I REFUSE to support
any support group that supports any people who support
support groups supported by those people or ones who do.
Now,
If the people who support support groups don't support
the other people who support support groups, then those
people may not support the support groups those people
who do support the support groups support.
So, that means,
When those support group supporters start supporting the
support group supporters who don't support the support
groups they support because they are not supported by
supporters or said support group they MAY start supporting
each others support group.
But I doubt it.

kumbahumbug?

{{gwi:209609}}Take a cleansing breath, then let it out slowly.

AAAAaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg

AAAAaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg

AAAAaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg

: )))))

Silly Wabbits!

Richard, that's beautiful!

Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words:
{{gwi:209610}}

Beautiful shot, Richard.

Mr. B - I'm getting more into Angs and near relatives. Do you still have your post that was deleted? (I can't imagine you saying anything that would prompt anyone to request a post of yours be deleted - or the moderator agreeing, even if someone asked. Geesh.)

Anyway, if anyone has the post, could you send it to me? Gladys feline (substitute cat for feline) 53 over at that Yaho- dotttt kkom. No spaces. Not case-sensitive.

Thanks much, Whitecat8

Mr. B, your picture hadn't appeared when I posted. Luscious. Yours and Richard's are what I'm aiming for, one of these days. Which plant is that?

WC8

That is Angraecum elephantinum, one of the members of the perrierangraecum subsection. Other members of that fabled subsection, which all have similar growth habit and flowers, include: equitans, didieri, obesum, compactum, and many more.

I don't have a copy of the post that was deleted. One of these days I'll create a new post on Ang growing. Fortunately, I can type REALLY fast and accurately so losing a long post doesn't really bother me much at all! lol If you're really curious (and until this post gets deleted...*rolls eyes*), the reason the *other* post was deleted is that our friend Jane in NY only wanted to fight with CJ. She didn't want to fight with me, so when I called her out for trying to pick a fight (with CJ) in the thread, she complained to the GW mods and...*poof*. Sadly, the scolding was the top few lines which were followed by three or four good paragraphs on Angs. Oh well, it aint no th(ang).
-MB

Mr. B. - Lucky for us you can type fast.

Samuel, can you send me a copy of the post? Pcan? My e-mail address is 3 posts up from here. I'd be happy to receive 2 copies.

Thanks, WC8

Excuuuuuuuse me....I don't have that kind of power. Why would I do that? I like a good argument, but I am not petty and never have been. My posts were pulled also.

How could you accuse me of something that isn't true?

I don't know what else to say..

Jane

"I can't imagine you saying anything that would prompt anyone to request a post of yours be deleted - or the moderator agreeing, even if someone asked. Geesh."

That's exactly my take also Whitecat. I have to ask, MB, did you get this from talking to Jane or is this your assumption of what happened? Jane knows my feelings on the issue of the posts that have been pulled and I believe she agrees. Much as we have not agreed with every post, especially recently, we feel strongly that as long as sexual, religious and political content stays within reasonable bounds and that the content is not outright slander or libel it ought not be GW's policy to summarily pull a post simply because it upsets someone's personal feelings. Surely it cannot be considered good management policy to act in such a powerful way just on someones request. Where is mediation? Where is fairness? I wrote GW directly weeks ago to express misgivings on their actions/inactions during the height of "T.O.F." I never got a response. Nevertheless I think things are on the mend. This was just an aftershock and it does not appear that it resulted in any loss of life.

H

I have to post again - I can't believe mrbreeze would accuse me of such a thing. A poster can't disagree with someone? I've been on this forum for many years and have never seen anything like what is happening now. I am so upset and hurt that I would be accused of doing something to cause posts to be pulled.

I wouldn't do that ever! I wouldn't know how to do that. I am so shocked I don't know what to say. I disagreed with Cj and now I am ganged up on? I am falsely accused of something I had no part of? I would like to know where that information came from. This is unbelievable...

Jane

sorry i dont have it. which makes me mad. i couldve really used that post too!!!!!!!!

Samuel - you've got mail....

Ok, I will sincerely apologize to you, Jane. I did assume it was you. Since you were the one I called out for (as I perceived it) trying to pick a fight with CJ, it only made sense that it would be you. In fact, it didn't make any sense that it could be anyone else. I thought maybe Clara, but as you'll see below, I only corrected some Ang info. that she posted so I ruled her out. So again, i'm sorry for the false accusation.

Thanks to pcan, here is the (shortened) deleted post:

"This thread is about Sam's blasted Leonis buds right? While it is always nice to see and smell Ang flowers, I would be thrilled just to know that a plant I received was absolutely blooming size. Buds are very likely to blast when forced to go through such radical changes in such a short timeframe. In the future, if you have a choice, go for plants that are just starting their spikes. If the buds can develop in *your* conditions, they're more likely to make it. I suspect the problem could have been from condensation within and between the tissues inside the buds when the temps dropped at night. I'd try to decrease the air circulation somewhat. The main reason I use a fan all the time is to blow the vapor from the humidifier around and to blow the spray from the mist nozzles around. If I wasn't so lazy I would have long ago hooked the fan up to the timer that controls the misters so it could be off when mist doesn't need to be dispersed.

A (Clara)fication regarding Angs is also needed. She said that some Aeranthes/hybrids are less demanding. That is not true. They're not less demanding than leonis, nor Angraecums in general. In fact, most Aeranthes grow in evergreen, riverine, moss forest type situations that are constantly humid and moist. Those conditions are significantly harder to duplicate than conditions that will suit most Angraecums. Having said that, one could infer from what she said, that a hybrid with Aeranthes grandiflora would be less demanding... and while still not true, one *could* grow that with minimal extra fussing. But i digress...

Hillerman makes a clear point in one of his writings about the cultivation of Angraecoid orchids wherein he describes how difficult it is to duplicate the 'long wet' cycles that they go through in the wild. It just isn't practical, even in a GH, to stand there and hose them down for hours on end...which is pretty much what it would take to duplicate the torrential rains they get coupled with very high humidity. In most cases, they dry out too fast, as anyone who has grown mounts indoors has found. Especially if there is a fan going, you can spray a plant for ten minutes until it is sopping wet, come back in 15 minutes and it will be dry again. Hillerman's solution is soaking the plants for at least 30 minutes as often as daily. In the winter, I soak them about once a week if they have growing root tips, less often if they don't. This is *in addition* to regular mistings and regular doses of vapor. The point of the preceding, other than providing tips on Ang growing, is to point out that one must jump through certain hoops to grow certain kinds of orchids. If you can't jump all the way through them, you're only going to have limited success. "

Hopefully the true complainer is not [actually] offended by Ang-related info! If that's the case...this post will likely get deleted...so copy and paste with elan, while you can. ;-)

Tuezday, you said above, "Supposedly a certain person and her alter egos have had their IP addy blocked. Psychotics may have a very thin skin." On the Conversations side, you said you "have it on authority" Clara had her address blocked.

Are you saying that the moderator of this forum told you they had blocked Clara's address? If not, then how did you obtain the alleged information?

You seem to say that Clara is psychotic. If that's what you're saying, it's unacceptable behavior on your part. I ask that you treat forum members with respect.

Whitecat8

Why would it 'only make sense that it would be me?' I didn't attack anyone, certainly not Cj. I disagreed with her. Attack is something else. I don't have a problem speaking my mind and I don't have a problem with anyone else doing the same. Unless it is threatening, vulgar or hurtful. I will stand up for myself and don't need anyone else to do it. I don't have a problem with a good argument. A good, intelligent argument has always been something I enjoy and raised my children to know that I would always listen - 'to a good argument...' and could they argue,(I'm Irish)!

mrbreeze, I was especially hurt at your accusations because I have always enjoyed your company, your posts and your Angs. and have never felt any ill feelings toward you. There are many people who share in this Forum who I respect and learn from. You have always been one of those people.

I am shocked and dismayed at the post-pulling and have no idea who is behind it. Whether these forums are being closely watched by GW moderators or complaints are being sent by individuals, I have no clue. I am strongly against such type of censorship and fear it will cause the loss of some wonderful people. I have never contacted GW, but have wanted to protest the pulling of posts. It angers me to be accused of the very thing I strongly object to. I would never, ever consider such a thing and hope it stops.

I believe in free expression of ideas and opinions. It feels like something sinister going on here which scares me. I should have the right to voice my opinion. You can disagree and voice that. I do not see that as being attacked. The name calling, the censorship and the lies are dangerous and should end.

If this forum of people does not come together to put a stop to this, I fear for its future.

I will accept your apology.

Jane