More information? Fish? Plants? Bottom drain? You can have rocks without covering the bottom with rocks. Sand seems like all kinds of problems.

Hello curb1,

First thank you for your reply.

Ok, nothing right now----It's a kit we're using with a waterfall. There will be just a few fish, and maybe a water Lilly. The purpose for the rocks is to insure that the underlayment won't float to the top. I agree with the sand concern. Would look great, but have a feeling it would be fraught will all sorts of problems. The liner and underlayment are black so we might even use small black lava rock. Maybe that will do the trick.

Thanks again,

BarbB

unless you have a lot of ground water pushing the liner up from underneath, your underlaymnent and liner will not float up. The weight of the water will hold the liner in place. You do not need rocks or sand at all. Rocks and sand just make a nice place for fish poop to rot and contaminate the water. Believe me....a clean pond bottom is a much healthier environment for fish.

Oh I agree that a clean pond is better. The problem is that the pond is now filled with water and although it's not floating, there are air pockets. Not sure if you can visualize this, but the rubber liner is actually "sandwiched" between the layers of underlayment. There is no ground water to speak of and certainly not this time of year in our area.

I'm sure we'll be just fine. One of the workers that was putting all this in was just concerned he couldn't get rid of the air pockets and thought that might become a bigger problem down the line.

BarbB

What was the reason they gave for using underlay as an overlay? Is this a common practice?

That is a question I have also. Why?? Glenda

There is no good reason to have underlayment on the inside of your pond. They are right about not having rock or sand in the bottom of your pond. Was the kit from Aquascapes? Pull the underlayment out of the pond. You will be happier that you did.

Happy ponding,
Scott

Thanks all for your input. I will call the people tomorrow and get the reason that was suggested. No, it's not Aquascape although our other pond was by them. The Waterfall kit is from AtlanticWaterGarden.com and the liner et all is from http://www.dripworksusa.com/. Here is a description of what the material is. The owner who I talked to about this fabric told me on the ponds they do they use this material both on the bottom of the pond and then on top of the liner. Something about holding micro-organisms and having a more natural balanced pond. I don't know, I may have that part wrong. I'll find out tomorrow and post the results. Below is the info on the fabric.

"Geotextile Fabric is an underlayment that is used to pad your pond liner and protect it from being punctured by rocks or other sharp objects underneath the liner. It is a puncture resistant, extremely durable product. Made of continuous filaments, it has the look and feel of a wool blanket. As padding, geotextile is much better than sand. It will not sluff off steep sides or move around when walked on.
Puncture and UV resistant
Long lasting, tough and economical
Works on steep slopes where sand will slide
Easier to apply than sand"

Thanks all,

BarbB

Now that I've recovered from the suggestion of pulling the underlay out-----YIKES---- there is one bright spot to all this. When we put the rubber liner in the pond (which is from Firestone) I noticed that there were all these unsightly white lines plus a couple of large red logos visable over the suface. This is on both sides so turning it over will be of no help. I even wrote the forum about that a couple of days ago.....Well, guess what, I don't have to worry about those unsightly marks anymore cause the fabric covers it up!!!!! :-) Sorry, just trying to think of something amusing in all this.

Back tomorrow with Chapter 2 tomorrow,

BarbB

I have ppl from Bend Tarp for my liner. (would not do it again)
They recommend using the underlayment under the liner as well as on top if you plan on using rocks. I placed the underlayment around my ledges and placed very large rocks to hold the underlayment down. I vacuum in between the rocks so it has not been a problem. I have a bare liner below the ledges.
Use large rocks to weigh it down- not sand or lava rock.. Keep the bottom of the pond bare and free of rocks.

Thanks lsst,

Well, at least I know I'm not completely bats! I was told to do the whole thing in underlayment. Right now we do have some large rocks as weight.

B.

barbb,
You do not need to cover the whole pond in underlayment. It does trap gunk. Eventually algae and stuff will cover the white lines and logos of your EPDM liner.

If a leak or tear happens in ppl it is almost impossible to repair unless site welded. EPDM can be repaired much easier.
I would not do underlayment on top of EPDM. I only do it with ppl as a leak from a tear from a jagged rock will be too hard to repair.

Hope this helps.

Underlayment is used on top of the liner to protect the liner from very heavy rocks or sharp rocks. By heavy rocks I am talking rocks that are 400 pounds and up or rocks that are heavy and sharp points. They wanted to sell you more product. I would not use lava rock in the bottom of the pond.
Mike

When underlayment is used on top of the liner it is pieces cut to the size of the large rocks as padding. Extra liner pieces can be used also.

I've never heard of covering an entire liner with underlayment in ten years of ponding.

I doubt it will hold up. Underlayment is not meant to be in water or exposed to sunlight. I agree that it will trap gunk under it too.

I'm sorry but I would remove it.

I do have a rock bottom and am perfectly happy with it but wouild never advise sand or lava rocks.

Dear All,

First thank you so much for all your very helpful opinions. Ok, I've made an executive decision. I think we're going to cut the underlayment off the bottom and just leave some on the ledges as lsst suggested. Unfortunately we are to the point where almost all the rock work has been done around the top and to undo all that to pull out the liner is going to be major. Think this will be a compromise we all can live with.

Thanks again everyone, and if anyone else has more to offer, speak now or forever hold your peace cause most of this stuff is going to be coming out in a couple of hours. :-)

BarbB

I agree with everyone else...that underlayment has to go!

Ditto for me also. Glenda

BarbB,

In April 05 I used a large piece of underlayment in my beach area to protect the liner from the stones I used there (pics). It's heavy duty, probably 1/8 to 3/16th" thick. I also used it on top of the liner in the falls and at the base of the falls and some of the shelf areas to protect the liner. I used river stone in the beach and shelf areas and filled in between with sand as a medium for the plants. The sand keeps the gook and other decaying material from settling between the stones. The only time I have any kind of problem is when the neighbors' Irish setter decided to take a bath and stirs up the sand, other than that it stays put, but I also don't have any large Koi to stir it up, just bullfrogs and shubunkins.
The deepest part of the pond is just liner, no stone, so it can cleaned out with a Shop Vac. I should have put in a 'bottom drain' but wasn't that savvy back then.

Witz
{{gwi:221249}}
{{gwi:221250}}
{{gwi:221251}}
{{gwi:221252}}

Hello Witz,

First of all what an absolutely beautiful pond and setting. It's very similar in size and shape to ours, but ours is a bit smaller. We actually have two of them, and this new one is up by our front entrance which is across from a path that leads down to the huge pond God put in.

I know it's always dicey to mention rocks in the bottom of ponds, and we did do that in our other pond with no problem. Have many fish who seem to be quite happy.

I so appreciate your positive input since I was beginning to think I had really done a large no-no. We have taken some of the over underlayment out, and will see how it goes. Thank heavens if we have problems we can easily take the rest out.

We have a bed and breakfast on this property which is pet friendly so I can appreciate your story about the Irish Setter. Not long ago we had a black lab arrive who got out of the car, sniffed the air, and instead of heading down to the beach took off hell bent for election landing right smack dab in the middle of our other pond. Doesn't happen often, but I cringe when it does. Heaven knows what will happen when our fur guests discover this one.

Thanks again, Witz. When we get this done and landscaped I'll try to post a picture--emphasis on the word "try".

BarbB

I've had rocks on the bottom and sides of my biggest pond for ten years. No problems. Have some original fish too.

Thanks, buyorsell888,

I'm feeling much better. I mean I know this is a huge debate which will continue forever, but, as you, I've had river rock in my other pond for about 8 years, and also have some of the original goldfish that haven't been stolen by herons.

I'll watch this new pond and if it's really becoming a problem I'll simply remove whatever I need to remove.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

BarbB

Barbb ... I built a 17,000 gal pond inside a horse pasture for one of my customers a few years back. I put two overlayers of fabric in it since I had to protect the liner from the 40 + tons of concrete and stone within the liner. It's 6" to 6' in 65'. I did put a foot of salmon stone in the bottom to protect it from the horses. There is no pump or spring. I did my best to plant it right. I piped all the downspouts in from 300 feet away and set a natural stone filter with liner uphill to filter rain runoff in. Now many can point out no-nos like concrete, horse manure runoff, water fron the roof shingles, fabric and gravel, lack of a filter, lack of a pump, and no spring. Guess what though ... After several years the pond hasn't skipped a beat. The plantings I put in have all done well. The dozen golfish I put in have become a few hundred. There are 5 species of frogs and of course some toads. Things are never as bad as some might put it.

Wow, lots of info. I have to agree with most of what people are saying. Underlay is intended for 'under' the liner, but it is a great tool for using chunks under large rocks to add more cushion and limit tears in the liner. I'd suggest pulling it out also, its just going to become an issue with vacuuming and maintenance. Plants, potted or not, will eventually work into the underlay and become a nightmare to maintain. There is no reason for it to be over everything, and quite a few reasons to get rid of it. As far as the white lines and logos on firestone liner, it all get a carpet of algae so it disappears anyway so don't let that be a reason to not pull it out.
Obviously you can do what ever you want, but the work of yanking it out now will be a fraction of the problems it causes in the long run. Sorry if this is bad news to you, but you'll be glad you did pull it later.
Also I'm from the no rock school also, and sand would be even worse. If this is a 'natural' pond that you are planning on doing nothing to, thats a completely different story. There are benefits to a lot of media on the bottom with different applications. But if you want a pretty 'water garden' I've never understood putting rocks on the bottom. Maintenance nightmare! Anaerobic, sulfur smelling, black gunk is all that will give you without massive filtration.

Whew, you're right watershaper---look at all this wonderful information from my one little pond! I really appreciate each and every reply. Not an easy decision, but as I said a few replies ago, I've done a compromise in leaving some, removing some and dare I say, including some rocks.....We'll see. There seems to be no 100% correct decision.

Thanks silent1pa. Not sure when you said 2 layers you meant sandwiching also or just two layers on the bottom, but whichever that is a much larger project than I'm dealing with. Yours sounds amazing----and I thought I had problems with guest's dogs in mine, at least I'm not dealing with horses yet, but then again, in the future, who knows.

BarbB