Judith, I wouldn't fertilize bands at all. Give them a year in their pots before you push them to grow.

I use Dynamite 18-6-8 (9 months release) that I get from big box stores. Works fine. The release is controlled by temperature according to their website. That's what I used on potted up band roses the other day and they are outside right now getting cold rain...

For alfalfa tea, alfalfa pellet, fish fertilizer, etc, I use them in the ground only. They are not reliable for container growing because of extreme temperature swing. Dynamite fertilizer is safer.

Judith, I use half strength fish emulsion once a week. Monthly, I sprinkle in a tsp of whatever organic fertilizer I am using, currently "Nature's Guide" (it's all I can get in this area). Plus, they get a few alfalfa pellets about every 2-3 months. I would stay away from the high concentration synthetic fertilizers for bands.

I find that bands are difficult to maintain a balanced nutrition, as you have such a small amount of growing area that requires frequent watering/lost nutrients. (Particularly if you live in a hot area like Tx.) Also, the water you use is a factor on the pH balance. All in all, I find it can be a tricky little balancing act.

I am interested in hearing more of what others do as well. My band plants sometimes experience a lag time for the organics to work.

If you are planning on putting the bands into the ground, don't fertilize now, plant and wait a month. Plant up with good compost and work on the rooting system.

I know everyone has their own method on what to do. But this is what learned from a very knowledgeable rose person. After I repot the bands into 1 gal pots and give them a week to get settled. Then I feed once a week half strength liquid fish emlusion, just about 1/2 cup. I have been doing this for over a month now with my baby roses and they are looking great.

No fertilizers on roses until they have been in the ground a year, save organics

Like Sue, I would never fertilize bands.
You really don't want to push big topgrowth at the expense of roots.

Jeri

I agree with the people who say no fertilizer for the bands

Jeri, Melva and Sue, just to clarify, you put nothing on your bands, not even organic fertilizers/amendments?

I suppose I will find out soon enough if I made a mistake using Dynamite fertilizer. I'm not all that worried though since it is controlled release fertilizer over 9 months. They planted in rootmaker container that would produce superior root system resulting increased growth. I've used it quite a bit and never saw any problems.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dynamite fertilizer

Greybird, that's right. As Jeri says, you want to encourage root development, not top growth, while the plant is so new. When I began gardening intensively, I was always searching for the best fertilizers and amendments, but what I've learned over the years is that first a soil test is necessary and then amendments are determined based on the results. I feed my roses in the fall or spring with aged manure, and once in a while if I'm motivated I might spray with Messenger (a harpin compound which increases root development and encourages overall health that results in larger and more blooms). For the most part, I'd rather not decimate the oceans' bounty by relying on fish and seaweed fertilizers, dislike chemicals intensely, and find that the garden is beautiful as long as I keep it clean and have an eye out for problems with specific plants. But then, I'm not a fussy gardener who insists on perfection, either. YMMV

I would venture to say that many here do not garden in sand where any nutrients added to the soil drains right through. And organics added, such as oak leaves, will be used or burned up right away.

I fertilize my bands about every 6 weeks with a very weak solution of whatever I have; organics preferred. I also tend to go with a low nitrogen mix when possible. Most of my bands are also potted up to one gallons within a very short time.

We have a long growing season and are not dealing with the issue of a short three or four month window of grow time, that others here experience.

Hmm, are these bands planted in the ground, or still in pots? If they are in pots, and going to stay in pots, they probably desperately need some sort of nutrition. A lot of the nurseries use sterile, soilless mixes because they are lighter to ship, and easier to clear for interstate shipping. However, unless the roses were fertilized shortly before being shipped out, there isn't a lot there.

What I usually do, is repot the bands into larger pots with a local potting soil . It's sort of splitting the difference.

I don't fertilize bands with anything. I try to re-pot them into gallon pots and let them grow on...I give the recent transplants alfalfa tea once I see new growth....they don't get anything until I see signs of them growing.

I learned a lot about container growing in the container forum so that's why I'm using slow release fertilizer for the container mainly of feast/famine problem in hot weather. I'm strictly organic in the ground using alfalfa tea/pellet, humic acid, seaweed, and hydrolyzed fish fertilizer. That can turn crappy soil into magnificent soil in a hurry. My idea of organic fertilizer is to feed the soil, not the plants.

mad_gallica, I thought we were talking about pots, specifically bands...

Thanks for all the intersting comments. I think I need a horticultural lesson. Here is my 'stupid question du jour': I know a plant needs a strong root system to grow leaves. Regarding different types of fertilizer - alfalfa, compost, time release, Miracle Gro/etc. - what do these work on, roots or topgrowth? What works on the roots? When a band is first planted, what makes it grow these strong roots? I got a group of bands from Vintage last fall - some like Mme. Ravary, Pink A Boo, Nimbus, Royal Sunset - are overachievers, long ago potted in larger containers, growing prolifically and starting to make buds. A few others, William Allen Richardson comes to mind, are remedial - having changed very little since I potted them. Growing I suppose, with green leaves and very much alive - but just sitting there. I am sure there is a difference in growth patterns in different roses, but am just curious what would make these larger ones take off and others just sulk? They are planted in the same soil, are in the same growing conditions. I was wondering if I was at fault, with lack of fertilizing - as I have only about twice given them all half strength of fish emulsion.
Judith

Interesting thread. Wish I'd read this before I fertilized my new bands.
I potted two of my new bands into 10" diameter terra-cotta containers and fertilized them with 1/2 strength fish emulsion.
I'm thinking they'll be fine, I'm not worried about it.
I didn't fertilize the other band, because it still remains in the band container it came in, until the soil dries out and then it will go directly into the garden (no fertilizer then either, just lots of "Back to Earth" brand cotton bur compost mixed into the soil).

Randy

Judith, I wish I could tell you differently but my William Allan Richardson is in the same shape. Research here and on other rose forums indicates that he's a very slow grower and not a strong plant. I adore his blooms, having seen a large shrub at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, and I've begun to collect his offspring wherever I can find them. One, Sunshine, is a pale orange polyantha that was propagated own-root for me (about half a dozen)from two fabulous forum members' contributions and three just arrived that were grafted by Burling, the master of grafting at the old Sequoia Nursery, who's now running her own nursery. I'll keep trying with WAR until I get it right, even if that means having Burling graft him for me. More to the point of your question, I haven't seen fertilizers or amendments that pushed band growth in any good way for me.

I garden in Seattle, not in Texas or Florida. Randy, I'd guess you and others aren't really doing any irreparable harm at all with your feeding - it's just probably more an issue of money needlessly spent that makes you feel good.

As for growing in sand, Thonotorose, I think you're right about your 'soil' needs once the bands are in the ground; but your bands aren't coming to you planted in sand, hopefully, and so while I can easily grant you that amendments are absolutely necessary to sandy soil to hold onto the nutrients, they're just not necessary for bands. Again, YMMV.

Suze, I am so glad to know WAR isnt just me!! I picked him up again tonite and looked at him - yeech! Healthy, tiny green leaves, spindly 2 weedy canes - just nothing going on. Then I look at the rest of the group and they are eating up this long soaking rain we are having, even with 39 degrees - just relishing it and growing. I think I will put these underachievers, I have a Lavender Crystal who is in the same boat, together and maybe they wont look so bad. I had a Sunshine and lost it - never a strong plant, tiny little blooms. I would like to try it again. Aunt Margy's Rose was a spindly plant like this and it has taken her 2 years in a pot and this spring, she is actually starting to make some headway and grow! So maybe I just need to be patient and baby him, I am quite sure it will be worth it! I just hope I wont be too old and witless to enjoy him when he finally gets some growth!
Judith

PS: What does YMMV stand for?

You know, that's funny.
I've got a little WAR here, and he seems as vigorous as a Reve d'Or (which is pretty dang vigorous).

And I've been pleased about that, because most of the yellow Tea-Noisettes really are weak growers in my climate.

Jeri

Oh you hush, you Southern CA rose grower, you!
Judith, YMMV=Your mileage may vary. We seem to have much the same taste in roses. I've been eyeballing Aunt Margy's Rose ever since Janet first listed it. I'll let you grow it out and tell me it's worthwhile before I commit.

... "money needlessly spent that makes you feel good"...

Suze, I got a kick out of reading that.
That pretty much sums up this gardening hobby of mine :-)

PS: What does YMMV stand for?

*** Your Mileage May Vary. :-)

Jeri
(My Mileage, alas, is often variable!)

Alameda-

My knowledge is strictly based from container gardening forum and Dr Carl Whitcomb's Plant Production in Containers II. Approximately the ratio 3-1-2 is needed for most plants; if not all plants plus minor/micro nutrients. That's for containers. The 9 months controlled release fertilizer I currently use is 15-6-9 (not 18-6-8 that I thought was using but made by same company). I did not use that much on them in the new containers so I am not too worried. To promote root growth - alfalfa tea and seaweed liquid. I often use seaweed liquid and humic acid combo as they make each other work better (they provide minor/micro nutrients as well). Liquid seaweed is often available at Lowe's. Humic acid is not widely available at stores so I order them online.

Paul for Ashdown told me to use half strength fish emulsion on the bands I got from him this year so you don't need to worry Randy. They will be fine.

My bands are looking great. I have been using this strategy for the last month.

That's great to know ... thank you sunnishine.

Randy

We're talking about fertilizing roses propagated in bands, received by the gardener and transplanted into larger pots? And we're assuming they weren't fertilized when they were transplanted because it was winter? And we're assuming we're not in that spring kill zone with the possibility of late freezes with temps below 20℉ for long period of time? No one should keep a rose in a band. Fertilizing bands is for propagators. For the rest of us, we pot up.

Once potted up, assuming it isn't the rainy season, I definitely fertilize them! I'm not talking about using 45-0-0 lawn fertilizer or Miracle Grow at labeled rates. At this time of year, there is a direct relationship between shoot growth and root absorption of nutrients. The two are inter-connected and inter-related. Therefore I fertilize to make nutrients available for root uptake in response to the demands of top-growth (and vice versa). There is no way to "direct" a plant to grow roots. Restricting nutrient uptake by the roots will inevitably restrict top growth. Restricting top growth will also restrict root growth. A host of scientific data over the past 25 years supports these facts.

Timing of the spring application depends on the weather and on growth. Once the majority of roses in the garden are showing a couple of inches of new growth, I fertilize. We've had temps down to the low 30's for the past two weeks, but the days are longer, the sun the stronger, and the roses know it. They are all steadily leafing out. Sometimes roses in the ground will show chlorosis at this time of year while they are leafing out. It's a problem of the nitrogen in the soil not being available to the roots because the soil is still very cold. But it will warm very soon, and when it does, the nitrogen cycle will be primed.

Whether you go organic or chemical is your choice. Let me be clear: it is entirely possible to pollute the groundwater with organic fertilizers and manure. Anything we apply must be used intelligently. Those of us who garden in areas of low rainfall can fertilizing wisely in ways that will not lead to an algae bloom off the coast. In my garden, roses in pots of all sizes receive a complete fertilizer. I used the more expensive coated fertilizers for several years, but I'm no longer a fan because I don't trust the release rates. Now I only use it in pots when I pot up bareroots in the winter. Most coated ferts require soil temperatures of 70℉ to start releasing nitrogen, so they cannot burn bareroots in the winter or leach out nitrogen.

So I give my potted roses an early season water soluble dose. For the sake of convenience with too many roses in pots, I use a big box store house brand of granular that is about 12-4-8 at the rate of a teaspoon to a 1 gallon pot, with a pinch of calcium nitrate in each pot. That balances amonium and nitrate nitrogen. Using pre-dissolved extra dilute fish emulsion or extra weak Miracle Grow is excellent but time-consuming if you have a lot of roses. We will have very little rainfall from now until November. The ferts will remain in the soil and will only be leached if I over-water.

I fertilize small roses regularly during the first year. IMO withholding nitrogen fertilizer from young plants is unsound horticulture. Manures and organics are fertilizers. Think about this: do you want to buy a 3 gallon potted rose from a nursery that hasn't fertilized that rose for a year?

In the late summer, with shortening days, there is much more root growth than top growth. From mid-August on, roses propagated in bands will outgrow pots in 3 to 5 weeks but with little top growth. This is the time to be stingy with nitrogen fertilizer, as the organics in a good potting soil are probably more than sufficient. I use very dilute liquid ferts after the plant is settled into the pot.

Just one more gardener's experience in one more climate.

Berndoodle, exactly. We don't fertilize bands because the propagator has already done so.

Cass, in my situation, all of the assumptions you made in your first paragraph are accurate assumptions for my situation.
Very logical program that you have and it makes good sense.
Thanks for your comments!

Randy

Berndoodle, I pot my bands as soon as I can after arrival in good soil that is light, not too heavy. I place in a protected area that gets dappled morning sun until they are growing well. We have had some chilly weather, but no freezes for 3 weeks and that seems to be over now. I have done no fertilizing except for 1/2 strength fish emulsion with kelp. If we will quit having fluctuating temps, they are trying to put out new growth - just had 5 days of off and on rain, and its to be sunny again next week, so they will probably want to start growing again. I was trying to get an understanding of IF they needed to be lightly fertilized at all, and if so with what. Seems there is some split as to some who dont fertilize them and others who do. Some of mine have been moved to bigger pots from their one gallons - others are looking like they will stay put awhile. I am scared of doing too much - so proud of them and do not want to lose any! This is why I have been so cautious about putting anything on them except fish emulsion/kelp-seaweed solution.
Judith

Here's the info from Vintage's website...

We recommend potting up bands into one-gallon pots, or even two-gallon pots. Use a good potting soil and plant the roses slightly deeper, so that the point at which the plant begins to branch is buried by an inch or so of soil. Water in with a dilute organic fertilizer, and follow up a week or so later with a top dressing of a time release fertilizer and a small handful of alfalfa pellets (rabbit food). Weekly feedings with a mild, organic liquid fertilizer like fish emulsion or kelp meal added to water are highly recommended. Keep your pots in full sun, perhaps with some afternoon shade when days are very hot. After two to three months during the growing season your young roses will have increased five to ten times in size and they are ready to plant in the garden. Always keep roses growing. When they have reached the limits of their pots they need the freedom of the open ground, or the extra space of a nice, big container.

Is it OK to repot the bands into pots with a mixture of peat/rotted mulch/Black Kow(Kow instead of fert?)?
Will this be too heavy?
It's already starting to get very warm here during the days-upper 70's, lower 80's. I don't want them to dry out in soil that is too light, but I don't want to rot them, either.

thanks,
Avalon

No.... Please head over to Container gardening forum for Al's Mix.

What I use...

3 parts screened pine bark fines
1 part expanded shale
1 part peat moss (preferably with wetting surface because regular stuff is hard to get wet).

Controlled fertilizer like Dynamite from big box stores.

Drains fast (that's the biggest key). Roots will thrive in the mix. you do need fertilize. It's like trying to starve children by not giving them anything. You gotta give them something. Not too little. Not too much. Dynamite fertilizer is probably the best thing I can find around here. 9 month release...

That recipe sounds pretty good, may have to try it, Lou. If I can come up with expanded shale, that is. What is it, anyway?

I wrote to one of our vendors, and she recommends a balanced fertilizer, something like 6-8-5. Now if I can find something with these numbers...

I fed my bands today, they really like the fish emulsion, liquid seaweed drench. To my knowledge, I have never lost a band from this amendment.

Greybird, when you refer to 'your bands', are you saying they're still in the same tiny pots that they arrived in? I try to pot them up to one-gal pots asap. This is just me and probably no one else does it, but I put some potting mix in the bottom of the pot, then a small handful each of alfalfa pellets and milorganite, then the plant and fill around it with the mix. My mix contains Rose-Tone & milorganite (and maybe some other organic stuff that I have on hand) which I figure won't be available to the plant for 3 weeks. This has never caused a problem. About a month ago I used a liquid mix of half-strength fish emulsion, MiracleGro and some dissolved (broken up) alfalfa pellets (not fermented). The roses really seemed to like it. They'd been in the larger pots (some 2-gal) for about 2 months, and they're going great guns. I think I've also scratched in alfalfa pellets & Rose-Tone.

To me this thread has been confusing, because originally I read 'bands' to mean potted on bands, never thinking someone would keep roses in those tiny pots. So when posters were saying 'no fertilizing bands', I was like "What?", and I didn't chime in, not wanting to rock the boat because I thought fertilizing was good for roses. But I have gathered from later posts what we are talking about - some talking about bands and some talking about potted on bands but all still referring to them as bands. I think I'm not confused anymore. I hope I understand now. At any rate what I'm doing is working for me. BTW, for the short time I kept roses in their band pots, I never fertilized them.

Sherry :))

Lou:
Al Mix is great, isn't it?
Here's what I used:
*5 parts pine bark fines
*2 parts Perlite
*1 part sphagnum peat moss
*a dash of organic garden lime
*1/2 strength diluted fish emulsion mixed with diluted liquid seaweed (a drenching right after potting up and every two weeks afterward)

I really like the texture of that mix. Plants seem happy so far. But going forward I will take your advice and use Expanded Shale instead of Perlite.

Randy

From what I understand after re-reading the initial post, the question was to feed or not to feed while they are in the band phase?
Sherry, when I refer to bands, I mean roses still in bands. I do not pot up into gallons until the root system matures enough, evidenced by fibrous roots showing out the bottom. I figure any bands I have lost in the past were the result of potting up too soon and water-logging in a too large container.

And I too love to use alfalfa pellets, horse grade. Though I would be afraid to place them near the root area, as they get really hot...I lost my first Reine des Violettes by cooking its roots, it broke my heart.

And what is expanded shale? Anything like perlite or vermiculite?

Gotcha, greybird.

Sherry

Hi, Judith. I thought you were saying your plants were already potted up. Yes, they need fertilizer in pots. The key question is when. One reason we don't fertilize while it's still cold and raining in winter is that the fertilizer isn't used by the plant, it washes out of the pot, pollutes the ground water and washes your money down the drain.

To know when to fertilize, look around at any roses in the ground or in pots. The time to start with spring fertilizer is when you see a good couple of inches of growth. That's how they tell you they are ready to rock n roll. Before that, you're probably wasting your time and money.

Once it's time to fertilize, extra dilute fish emulsion is great for young plant, as is extra dilute anything dissolved in water. I'm a lazy slut with a bit of experience killing and growing roses, so I also use other stuff. I'm sure on occasion I also forget to use anything.

One little note: once the weather warms, make sure your potted roses are very well watered before you fertilize - meaning the pot is watered and the roots have had time to absorb the water. Fertilizer is a kind of salt. It can really damage a dry plant - - kill it, if the soil is dry.

I have noticed that the Vintage bands have a gravelly like composition to the bands when they arrive. Wonder if that could be the shale Lou is talking about? I have found that intead of rushing to pot the bands up in one gallon pots the minute they arrive, they seem to do better if I let them climitize about a week. I keep them out of them wind and protected from cold weather, put them on wire shelves in dappled sunlight. The ones I got from Rogue Valley are now just bursting out of their bands, ready to be potted [tomorrow]. Our weather is in the 50's at night, it got up to 81 today. I am seeing lots of new growth on the bands, but they are still looking like babies at this point - unlike the ones I got in November - those are getting really big, a few have buds [as do a couple of these newest bands - [by the way - I call them 'bands' even tho they are repotted into larger containers] This is why I want to be so careful in what I give them - do not even want to chance burning their young roots. And I definitely water well the day before fertilizing. I have several that are quite slow - still look like sticks with new leaves - I am really going to be careful with those.......not even sure if these should be fertilized or not??

Judith

I wouldn't give the sticks anything, until you see some signs of new growth.
I got a band from Vintage today...it was huge! and really needed to get out of that band pot...so I re-potted it into a gallon pot.
It is Francesca...

Judith, That gravel stuff is very small lava rock/sand. It's supposed to have micronutrients and be good for drainage. I think that is what they use instead of perlite, as a recycling thing. I never see perlite in the bands.
I guess I am going to just have to look it up to see what this shale stuff is...

EXPANDED SHALE: Made from natural and ground to 1" to " range particles and then kiln fires. As it progresses through the kiln for 40 minutes at 2,000 degrees C, certain chemical processes take place in the silica content (60-70%) causing the material to expand. As the material cools, cavities are left after gases escape, leaving a porous lightweight chunk capable of absorbing water and releasing it slowly at a later time.

Sorta like lava rocks. Expanded shale is readily available around here. I prefer it over perlite. Extra weight help containers withstand winds better. It can get very windy here.

{{gwi:9026}}

Lou, where do you buy your expanded shale?

At a local nursery in my town. Seems most nurseries around me have it. Not big box stores though. It is used to amend clay soil to get some air in the soil to help plants grow better. I'm not sure if they are sold where you are (I'm guessing you have red sandy soil? I attended college in Nacogodches so I'm familiar with the soil there).

Lou....I graduated from SFA too, nursing program. Did you ever see the arbouretum there? Its gorgeous this time of year, I have to go over and see the azaleas. Cook's Nursery there may have this - I will try my feed store also. Soil in Nac is red clay. In Lufkin, where I live, its loam, post oak and everything in between. I am no expert, but I believe these little band roots dont need a heavy soil so I ammend mine with chopped leaves, perlite and a rose ammendment. I think the shale might be good to try as well. When they start growing well, I think they can go into a denser mix. Anyone have thoughts on this? Most of my bands grow great. There are just a few that lag, and I am trying to figure out the perfect routine to get them all off to a good start.
Judith

Judith,

I try and go to the Arboretum every year when I can. It sure has gotten huge since I graduated (2000). I may go there for Spring plant sale next month. It was gorgeous in the late fall with all the maples turning color. I could have sworn that SFA arboretum said acidic sandy soil. Hmm...

Pretty much almost all plants growing in the container need excellent drainage mix for optimal root growth so that's why I don't use much peat (too much peat will hold too much moisture). I don't use anything that is "fine" stuff like compost that would impede drainage (maybe very little compost is fine). All the excellent information can be found in Container forum by Al. Needless to say, my plants grew better after reading Al's stuff.