A bit off topic but related. Purchased a BB 'Autumn Purple' ash via a wholesale nursery (won't mention John Deere). The tree, unbeknownst to me, had been resacked before re-offering it for sale. Admittedly, probably doesn't matter with EAB forthcoming, but...

I always check for plastic string, which WAS on the re-sacked ball and I removed every bit of it on the ball including the noose around the neck. Mistake - I did not remove the burlap!

Zoom forward several years. Mowing, I notice white plastic string emerging around the tree, and when I pulled it and followed, roots had grown around it. All the way around the tree! Of course I removed all that I found, clipping it where it went through the roots.

The point being - as davidrt28 was hinting - be aware that some nurseries minimize labor (and sometimes knowledgeable help) to maximize profits. Too bad there isn't any way to know except CHECK the rootball.

Thanks, I agree it's a related issue, in fact even more serious because having a tree lost in the landscape due to poor wholesaler prep is worse than just a shrub. Even potentially catastrophic if it means the try falls over in the storm because its root system was never anchoring it.
We are really at the mercy of the nurseries in these cases; on a large planting job it would take too long to hunt around in every pot for signs of bad repotting (and certainly every burlapped root system!). My old technique when in a hurry was to just slice the mass in two as best a square spade could. But that would miss the problem I noticed because it seldom goes more than 50% into the interior. I'm going to "trust, but verify" every containerized plant in the future!

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sat, May 10, 14 at 19:36

I always buy the smallest, freshest plants possible for this exact reason. "Potted up" plants here often have circled roots. One local horticulturalists recommends soaking off all the potting soil before planting anything potted--first, to remove the wood-based potting soil which can cause rot in our climate, and second to inspect the root system and trim as necessary (if possible).

Of course this may not work in colder climates, where plants need all the time they can get to settle in before a cold winter arrives. We can get away with it here.

Last year I got a pair of super fresh Crape Myrtles--no circled roots at all--beautifully grown--and the growth and health of them has been simply amazing. A healthy root system makes a huge difference.

The original landscaping here--it never thrived. There was just nothing I could do to get those plants to grow. I dug just about everything up, and the roots were ALL in tight circles. Very sad. What a waste. And yes several were 'George Tabor', a plant that deserves better!

so whats NEW about it all????

caveat emptor ...

what seems new.. is that you are now onto it...lol ..

it is ALWAYS.. a false dichotomy ... to buy big .. for instant gratification .. to grow it big.. it has to either be field grown and raped from mother earth.. and in digging.. who knows if the root mass was slaughtered ...

or grown in a series of pots ... from a one year graft in a quart pot.. to to one gal.. to a three... to a 5 to a 10.. to a 20.. to a 30 .. all over a 10 year span to grow this instant gratification the buyer wants ...

i mean really.. your seller sells it for lets say.. 200$ .... over 10 years ... he made 20 bucks per year on it... minus all the water.. fert.. manpower to water it.. irrigation... potting media.. pots... etc... his net profit is probably 80 cents ... not to mention.. he probably lost half of what he started with .. it a wonder any of them stay in business ...

dont get me wrong.. you are absolutely right ... but there is nothing you can do about it..

but what hoov and i do ... buy little ... and grow them out yourself ...

ken

>> grow this instant gratification the buyer wants

I. WANT. MY. TREE. NOW!

...where did we put the hammock?

Just bought and planted the cutest little Hydrangea quercifolia 'Pee Wee' for Mother's Day. It didn't have circling roots, just three perfect larger stems in a nice symmetrical shape. Yesterday (two DAYS) after planting, my son and nephew were playing soccer in the backyard. I came home from work and immediately noticed the droopy leaves on one branch. That'd be the one broke off at the base and stuck back in the dirt!! It in turn had branched, leaving me with a small shrub with only two branches. Nice.

Just bought and planted the cutest little Hydrangea quercifolia 'Pee Wee' for Mother's Day. It didn't have circling roots, just three perfect larger stems in a nice symmetrical shape. Yesterday (two DAYS) after planting, my son and nephew were playing soccer in the backyard. I came home from work and immediately noticed the droopy leaves on one branch. That'd be the one broke off at the base and stuck back in the dirt!! It in turn had branched, leaving me with a small shrub with only two branches. Nice.

Just bought and planted the cutest little Hydrangea quercifolia 'Pee Wee' for Mother's Day. It didn't have circling roots, just three perfect larger stems in a nice symmetrical shape. Yesterday (two DAYS) after planting, my son and nephew were playing soccer in the backyard. I came home from work and immediately noticed the droopy leaves on one branch. That'd be the one broke off at the base and stuck back in the dirt!! It in turn had branched, leaving me with a small shrub with only two branches. Nice.

Just bought and planted the cutest little Hydrangea quercifolia 'Pee Wee' for Mother's Day. It didn't have circling roots, just three perfect larger stems in a nice symmetrical shape. Yesterday (two DAYS) after planting, my son and nephew were playing soccer in the backyard. I came home from work and immediately noticed the droopy leaves on one branch. That'd be the one broke off at the base and stuck back in the dirt!! It in turn had branched, leaving me with a small shrub with only two branches. Nice.

Ken,
what is new (to me) is that these problems are buried deep within the root mass from prior repottings, and not visible on immediate inspection when removing the pot and seeing the state of the roots.
In fairness bboy talked about the same issue last summer, I suppose I had to see it myself to realize the extent of the problem. I have at least a couple plants I'm debating about digging up to check for this:

Here is a link that might be useful: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/conif/msg0809002717480.html?14

The worst problem is impossibly tight roots right at the base due to too long stays in liners, bands or 4 inch pots before growing on in larger containers or field rows. You do not avoid this by buying small, if the plants were in the small pots long enough to become deformed before you bought them, or by buying field grown stock as much of that has spent time in small containers before going into a field.

In my experience the problem is general, not occasional, and as long as the public does not gripe to retailers about it there is no incentive for growers to mend their ways. Except a belief in doing a good job, which apparently is not much acted upon in this particular subject area. In fact, certain wholesale companies who tout their superior quality quite a bit in their promotional literature are among the worst chronic offenders.

so will plants with circled roots ever thrive?

What's alarming is they can last for years before failing. I cannot be sure the problem that killed my Fagus 'Rotundifolia' was a knotted root. The soil in that area was probably a little too moist, but I don't think it would have hurt a properly grown specimen. It superficially seemed healthy, but slow growing. Never had a mid- summer leaf drop you'd get with outright root rot. But then it died last winter. When I dug it up, the root mass was clumped mess. Completely shocking to me. In almost 10 years it had barely grown out past the original burlap...long rotted away of course...but wasn't even very big within that area. My guess is the retailer had bought a 2 gal. container that was already knotted. It wasn't something he specialized in so I doubt he did the grafting. He just plants it in field for a few years. That area has sandy soil and it was probably on a drip feed. This helped the underlying issue not slow it down too badly. Digs it up for B&B production. Does not realize there's a problem. Oh well.

So I'm beginning to like the advice of completely washing away ALL soil on container grown specimens. To allow full examination of the root system just before planting. I've been burned too many times. Yes it becomes a bare root plant at that point, but so what? It's only bare rooted for a few moments! So I guess the answer to your question is they can seem to be thriving when you buy them, and shortly thereafter, but no, it will always been downhill unless it's a vigorous enough species that it can just grow past the problem, to some degree.

Beeches might be particularly susceptible. I have a couple other rare beeches the seem to also have the problem...grafted in small liner pots, probably by a wholesaler, and grown on by a retailer without fixing knots. F. 'Dawyck Gold' I aggressive cut a few years ago. It is now growing at what seems like an appropriate pace, though I'm not sure I completely mitigated the issue. The 'Dawyck Purple' is still not growing well, I am debating a using a hose to try to completely expose the central rootball, see what I'm dealing with, and cut or sever with a Dremel if necessary. If it kills it, so be it...but I now think it's never going to catch up with the 'Dawyck Gold' unless I do something drastic.

BTW - that 'George Tabor' died in the polar winters LOL. I'm just a little too cold for even the hardiest southern indica to be a long term plant. Too bad. It's one of the prettiest azaleas I think. There are probably other cultivars that look similar, and oddly enough, an elepidote rhododendron that is very surprisingly similar. Other than, obviously, having flowers in clusters! I might, or might not, have managed to obtain that while Ron was still at Rarefind. In a few years it will bloom and I will find out. He thought it was probably max roseum X 'Skipper' (pink form).

I bought some hollies that had 'root balls' when I tried to unknot them a lot of the roots were destroyed so I did not do the others. the one I did do seems to be okay. so-if if I dig up & unknot the rest can I do it now or wait until spring. they are predicting a mild winter here in the st lous area.

I would just do it now.

Plant roots do have the ability to fuse together over time, so a tree or shrub that became tangled and potbound as a seedling, as many of them do, may heal itself eventually. What's most annoying about this problem is deciding what to do if you wash the roots and find major problems there. Do you try to return it immediately, or chop the hell out of the roots and hope for the best, or plant it and intentionally kill it? Adopting a wait-and-see attitude seems unwise, as the problems may take years to manifest.

Agreed Tortuosa, some plants can outgrow the problem. But my on-going approach is going to be to try to find the issue ASAP and correct it.

when the roots are severely knotted what's the best way to untangle them. the one I did do I stabbed them vertically with a sharpshooter shovel.

I cut if I have to, but otherwise just try to force them back into a radial configuration. With some root-bound Abies firma I once planted, I was able to unfurl roots that spread out over 4 ft. from the trunk. From a container with a diameter of no more than 2 ft. They have done superbly well.

I have been prying the roots apart by hand in a tub of water, and cutting the problem roots if they can't be redirected. The last one I did had some that were fused together so I left them because they weren't girdling the stem or pointing upward. You will lose some smaller roots when untangling like this but as davidrt28 wrote you often end up with a much wider root system. I may try pre-soaking next year to see if they become less rigid.

these hollies were in 2 gallon pots so the root wads are a 12" diameter.

first .. pull stock out of the pot at the store.. and look at them.. and then decide if they are worth it ... and of course.. if its this time of year.. and they are a huge bargain .. go for it ...

when timing is perfect ... like now.. in dormancy.. you can probably cut 80% of root mass off.. plant.. and succeed with a good success rate ... sounds extreme ... but its no more or less .. than if you bought field grown trees that were field dug and ball and burlapped ...

see link specifically about timing:

https://sites.google.com/site/tnarboretum/Home/planting-a-tree-or-shrub

if you buy in the wrong season.. hold the pot over to the next proper time for root surgery and planting ...

anyway ... get your hose and pistol grip out.. pull it out of the pot.. and just hit that thing with the water .. dont worry about how hard.. short of disintegrating a root .. get rid of all the potting media ... and go to town with the hand pruners.. and get rid of the problem roots ... plant on a mound of soil.. spread out the roots ... water it in good.. and be done with it ...

see link on proper watering and mulching .... with heavy root pruning.. you will be responsible for watering the first hot season ... and in drought the second hot season ... pretty much free range after that ...

there is a reason to buy a bit smaller... the process is just that much easier.. and the stresses are that much less ... sometimes its just not a bargain to buy bigger.. with all the attendant bigger problems ... small plants.. with less stress often outgrow larger transplants.. in tree time .... [not to mention smaller usually means cheaper ...] ...

channel your inner surgeon .. lol ..

ken