Don't know the answer but am very curious why you ask.
BTW, My Champney's was one of the roses that had some RRD in fall :-(
Ann, I was walking last week and found tons of Multiflora. Should I try to destroy it, by way of finding out who it belongs to first. It is not very close to me and not uphill. Sorry to change subjects.

Carla

The why is easy. I'm looking for something interesting to do in an area that will be big, easy to care for roses with super fragrance (and so I can compare some crosses with 'the real thing').
Champneys also interests me because of Graham Stuart Thomas' comment (oft quoted without attribute) that Champneys doesn't repeat.
The Champneys I have now has some serious problems with fungal lesions on the canes that none of my other noisettes seem to have (nor are they catching them from CP).

On multiflora, you really don't want that anywhere near your garden. That batch will get RRD; it's not a matter of if, but when. The sooner they are gone, the less the problem will be.
If it's along a fence line and the fence encloses grazing or hay fields, contact the owner. Most will welcome someone to partially clear a fenceline (and increase their grazing and hay capapbility.)

Ann, would that repeat depend on climates? I would HATE to lose mine to RRD. The multiflora is a good 1-2 miles away from my garden. There is a neighbor with established roses that they don't care about, but near the multiflora. I better skidaddle on asking them for cuttings.
I need to contact you about spraying Cygon.

Carla

Ann, the Hampton Park Noisette Study Garden in Charleston SC has many commercial accessions of CPC. They repeat well, and I think GT was mistaken, or it could be the climate thing, since he also says the musk rose doesn't repeat, and we know his own accession of it, in my garden, repeats constantly.

As for the CPCs in the USA, we did DNA work (see the proceedings of the 9th Intl. Conference on Heritage Roses) and found the following:

1. All 5 accessions we tested were identical
2. All 5 accessions are very likely first-generation offspring of 'Old Blush' as we grow it and the single musk rose, since about half of its DNA is attributable to each of those parents. None of its DNA bands failed to be accounted for by either OB or SM. So direct parentage is highly likely. (these were RAPDs with 6 primers)
3. Blush Noisette, as grown and sold in the USA, is also the same rose from many sources, and attributes half of its DNA to CPC.

So, with all that in mind, I'm fairly confident that
1. We're all growing the same CPC and BN
2. They're very likely the true, historic varieties.

Malcolm

Grin,
So much for my wall of slightly different CPC's.
Has anyone done a series of R.moschata x BN crosses and grown them out and then compared them with BN x moschata?
(Is there any difference genetically between BN and Cl BN? I'm not sure where my copy of the Charleston Proceedings is.)

I do have Chester #2 from Roses Unlimited and it is consistantly pink (with larger blooms than my CPC). Gotta wonder where the stronger pink came from (but that's not the vibrant pink/?cerise of Fellem/nburg).

Just looking for reasons to grow more noisettes (and fewer moderns.)

Ann, from another noisette fan-- there is a relatively new collection at the Center for Historic Plants at Tufton Farm (part of Monticello). The contact there is Dennis Whetzel. And there's a planting at the Riverbanks Zoo and Botanical Garden in Columbia, SC; I've not seen it. I love your idea, and are you sticking to the "American" noisettes?

There's a non-climbing shrub form of Blush Noisette in commerce? Mine has much the same growth habit as my CPC, only smaller. I do remember reading something about Marie Pavie being erroneously distributed as Blush Noisette for a while.

My Mary Washington resembles either a compact, shrubby version of Blush Noisette or a thorny version of Marie Pavie. I've wondered how it fits into the picture.

I've visited the collection at Tufton whenever we are 'by' there. Dennis is doing wonderful things with their collection. (Have you seen the line drawings of noisettes done by Leonie Bell in her and Hellen van Pelt Wilson's The Fragrant Year? For simple ink drawings, they are exquisitely detailed.)
The collection at Riverbanks is simply charming with lots of the found roses from South Carolina. You MUST visit it when La Mortola (a variant of R. bruoni) is in bloom; I haven't seen it yet, but it may be the largest rose in the southeastern USA. Someone who can watch that garden come into first bloom needs to call for an (almost) impromtu rose gaze/gathering. What I really like about Riverbanks are the swings (adult type) with roses growing over them. Just charming.
Also see the cemetery roses in Staunton.
Sorry, I was using BN when I should have written out Old Blush, the other parent of CP (and it should be Champneys'.)
I, too, wonder how Mary Washington fits. I wonder if anyone grows it in perfect soils with lots of fertilizer and perfect water and how large it would grow. Mine's in red clay (like the rest of my noisettes) and they survive well here.

I think the remaking of the musk by Old Blush cross would be an excellent idea, and grow out lots of seedlings. I'm not aware of anyone doing that.

Malcolm the enabler.

Malcolm,
You have done the basic background: the testing of the Old Blushes and the moschatas.
And I can get both to set seeds easily. (Knocking on wood and omitting years with very late freezes.)

Ann, I have GST's quote on this as :

'(crosses between China/Tea hybrids and r.moschata) ... such a hybrid was the double pink 'Champney's Pink Cluster ... This rose I have not seen ...'

In the 'combined' rose book he does direct readers to CC Hurst's work. I could not be sure that there are no other references in his many works.

Malcolm, I remember we discussed this standing by the GST musk at Mottisfont a few summers ago - it is certainly true that our original plant flowers late and once only though we fully accept that in a longer and kinder season it could well flower again. We don't have 'CPC' in the garden, so I can't comment on its ability to repeat in this climate. It would be interesting to know how it performs on the Riviera or other Southern European climes - there must be reports?

Best wishes
Jon

What an ingteresting thread! Now I know why I missed this forum so much.

Ann, how about a collection of these noisettes: BN, CPC, Mary Washington, Mrs. Wood's Lavender-Pink Noisette, Natchitoches Noisette, and Secret Garden Noisette. I have the impression all these are likely to be related, and possibly all American-born. We are contemplating a hedge-type planting, using the noisettes to enclose one side of our oval-shaped fragrance garden at the arboretum where I work. Thanks so much for mentioning gardens to visit.

There are more!
Placerville White Noisette (aka Jacob zeisz)
Setzer Noisette
Roseville Noisette (one of my favorites)
St. Leonards/Pale Pink Noisette/Little Mary V Tower
Georgetown Noisette

Georgetown and Setzer are climbing by habit.
They're all GREAT garden roses!

Jeri

Ann,
I am very interested in your mention of fungal lesions on your Champney's Pink. Ours in the Sacramento cemetery has a very strange condition, with purplish blotches and necrotic patches on the older canes, and edema on the newer ones. Some of the state plant pathologists looked at it, and didn't see anything recognizable.

I am away from home right now, but when I get back, I will start a new thread with photos of the condition on our rose, so that we can compare, and we can see if others are seeing something similar on their Champney's Pink.
Anita

Anita,
Let's open a new thread on that. I haven't taken CP back yet, so I've lots to compare yours with.

Barbara,
I have all of your list except SG. I have some of Jeri's list.
I, ahem, also have Chester #1 and Chester #2, Wavy Leaf #2, one from Newbury SC, Seltzer, Narrow Water, St. Leonards, Good Shepherd, Bouganville (a must have), Redoute Red (which RU is now calling a noisette and I think it might belong there), my own Merry (Brenda), and a couple of others. And I'm still thinking my found Old Gray Cemetery Noisette is more noisette than anything else. As Old Gray matures, it becomes simply wonderful in healthy and bloom production (as well as the interesting solid (healthy) red-purple canes in early spring (that would have looked so good against the brick I had on my house in Houston.)

On Mrs. Woods LPN, there's an article about our garden on the Tenarky District website in Archives. It was fall three or four years ago and there's a pix of Mrs. Woods in full glory. About five feet high, she's the same height now. Same size. Growing in red clay.

Jon,
GST's reference (quoted in Q-R without attribute) is from one of GST's non-rose books. When the great man died, I realized I needed his other books before they became available only at collector's prices. And oddly, the prices dropped with his death. I remember it's on a right hand page and in the middle. I shall look for it. Because time spent reading GST is always well spent.

Ann

Here's the link to the article Ann referenced, page 4.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ann and Larry Peck's Garden