I use to love mine as well -- one called C. lyonii 'Hot Lips', planted in with Hosta, ferns and Toad Lilies.

It's not a "wow-plant" -- just a subtle beauty in the fall garden. And native too!

Good! In my experience, it's been able to tolerate sun, shade, drought and even black walnut trees. I agree it's not a "wow," but it's a nice plant nonetheless.

Not good, not bad - but excellent! I have "Hot Lips" and it performs really well for me. Foliage is neat and tidy all season, then about late August or so (sometimes a bit earlier) they cover themselves in those gorgeous rosy-pink blooms. Speads at a moderate pace if happy to form good-size colonies, but not invasively so.

I have mine in partial shade, average soil. They will not perform well in soil that is too dry.

Oh, this is making me so sad. Never had any luck with my C. oblique :-( In fact, I think it is dead, lol.
CMK

Well I have the hydrangeas which in my opinion are show stoppers and I need something to bloom in the fall so it seems that it will be an excelent choice. Thank you all for responding.

I started some from seed years ago, and planted one of them just to see what they were like. I can't say we've ever had to do one thing to it. It just minds its business and comes back and blooms. I think the flowers are interesting and the foliage decent. Mine is in dry dappled sunlight planted under the snags of an old black locust tree in hard clay soil.

Mine spread like mad - I would think twice before putting in a garden bed. The white flowered version behaves just fine, but the pink flowered one takes over.

Gotta garden, were yours planting in sun or shade? What kind of soil? Thanks.

Mine are in full sun, rich garden soil. I am ripping it out by the bushelfull this spring. I put it in a "thug bed" with beebalm, obedient plant, the spreading yarrow, campanula punctata, coneflower, etc. Turtlehead won hands down.

wow gottagarden, you were so daring to plant those thugs together to duke it out! i wish i had room enough for such an experiment!

gottogarden - Bravo! Luv,luv,luv mine - originally planted 2 pots between 2 Quacking Aspens ... Chelone aka Hot Lips, won as well! 1 Q Aspen casualty of a tornado & the other of old age (20-lifespan)! Of the 2, Q Aspen is a pain ... 'am still dealing w/ wandering roots & suckers! Â:(

I'm w/ mxk3! Â;) After 20+ years we just now, dug up 2'x3' for a friend's garden! (Whence found 3 huge roots of Q Aspen ... grrrr!

&&& like dirtdiver's patch - tolerated all the above enumerated, but the Blk Walnuts, instead the old-age drooling of Q Aspen (sticky blackish sap!) ugh!

I love bees ... bees love them ... & I love her name Chelone! What's more, Jack-in-a-Pulpit, found his way to preach in her midst & drunken bees listen!!!

Wow! Ditas, you have completely convinced me that I made a good choice ordering three of these, haha. I love your enthusiasm.

Thanks I think! - This gardening *enthusiasm* in my DH's Thesaurus is synonymous w/ *Glut for Punishments* - I have several beloved *invaders* as well as flowering *Divas* that I invited in our piece of soil & enslave to!!!

If you were anywhere near you didn't have to send for 3 pots of lovely 'Chelone'! Make sure to allow room to stretch, OK?

The kidney shaped bed I created eons ago ,was a mere 12'x4' (give or take). I planted a Forever & Ever Hydrangea at one end - a few yrs aft tornado claimed Q Aspen #1. 3 yrs ago was when we took the sap-drooling old 1 - sun didn't faze Hot Lips but Jack grew a small family & the yung-uns complained. So as soon as I'm certain Q Asp. does not show his shadow again - I've dug up & potted my Sweet Autumn, Clem & I plan to create a trellis for her in the vacant lot to climb on ... nothing fancy - just a tiny church/steeple for *Preacher Jack* & family!!!

Have fun w/ the new tenants when they arrive!

Ditas,
oh boy did I have new tenants and even though I left plenty of space they moved into their neighbors properties, I found one trying to grow in the midst of my Annabelle. So.... Off with their heads! JK, I am moving them to the back yard along the back fence where it is somewhat shady. Hope the horses don't munch on them but it's them or my hydrangeas and well you can guess which one I prefer. They are lovely plants but they did reseed at an alarming rate and I like to minimize my work load in the garden not add to it. We will see how they do in their new location and I'll decide next year if I will keep them or not.

Melaroma -

Thanks for the follow-up on how this plant performed for you. I try to avoid planting voracious reseeders and I have considered this plant, so am interested in generally where you are so I can judge the relevance of your experience to my garden. Are you midwest, far west, or eastern? Or alternatively what soil type (clay, loam, or sandy, and acid, neutral, or more alkaline?) It is always fascinating to me how differing growing conditions affect the seeding and growth patterns of so many plants.

I grew Chelone/white turtlehead from seed via winter sowing last year and it bloomed 1st year. I was a little surprised it bloomed since it only grew about 8-10 inches tall. This year it was up almost as soon as the snow melted. I also have it growing in dappled sun on a north slope and will be interested in seeing how it behaves. I gave it plenty of room until I know its habits.

I am in zone 5 in UT with Loam soil and they are planted in half shade. I planted them last year and they came in a 1 gallon pot. Here are pictures of how they spread this year.

Here is how they looked when planted:

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Here you can see how they have spread.

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In this last one you can see it growing in the middle of my tulips and border of my Jacob's ladder. If it spread like this on the first year I can't imagine how it will do next year!

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melaroma ~ it's a good thing you decided to move Chelone from the situation shown in your pix ~ she'll weave her way into every little inch of soil between your other treasures there. She'll fill the place in no time just like Threadleaf Coreopsis would! I thin my Chelone/Hotlips plantation as needed ~ even installed a wire fencing wall to keep the new citizens from moving into F&E's small territory at one end of this island. No kidding Chelone territory is a forest ~ a friend's DH dug up a third TG ~ but still love my Chelone country!!!

You know... I kinda decided to leave it there after looking at it again. I know that I should move it but I really like this plant. If I just break off the unwanted volunteers will they come back?

I started reading this thread last week, since I planted some chelone in a wet bed last fall.

I just realized this morning, as I opened GW and clicked on this thread to read the new comments, with an incredibly sinking feeling, that I may have just yanked the plant last evening, thinking it was a weed because I didn't remember planting anything in that spot. Son of a gun!

Sigh....

:(
Dee

Melaroma ~ You still have time as your Cheloney lyonii population is still small & manageable. D'you know that I never considered self-sowing as a greater attribute for her aggressive spreadability as for her might at weaving her roots, very much like my July blooming Coreopsis that I have to discipline closely as well ~ you can see in this album I plucked from my file just for you. Also since this pix a good 4th of the 10ft C forest was dug up for a friend F&E is a lot happier since!

Hi diggerdee ~ if only you are close by we could dig up clumps & create an instant li'l forest for you - honestly!

Here is a link that might be useful: Chelone few years ago

Wow those pictures of your chelone are gorgeous! Maybe i sould move them to the back where there is more space. Ill have to tackle that tomorrow. I was also wondering if deadheading the plant at some point might help control the new tenants.

Diggerdee, im sorry to hear that. We all make mistakes. Early this spring I was in a snipping frenzy when trying to tidy up my beds and accidentally snipped off a huge portion of my clematis! I had read somewhere that some can be pruned back and others recent it. I trimmed this one down pretty low and my heart sank when I realized what I did. Did you yank the whole thing out?

Hi Melaroma ~ An update on Chelone Island ~ finally built the simple trellis/arbor (of plasti-coated posts & garden wire fencing) for Clem-Autumn Joy to climb over & eventually shade F&E/ES H.

As I mentioned earlier I gave a friend 2ft-worth of Chelone ~ so far the wire barricade held her back w/ a bit of pulling & up rooting ones now & then ~ too bad Diggerdee is not close by! I'm potting some for a friend w/ disclaimers!!! LOL I'm also trying to control the other end to keep them in the center of the island ~ fingers crossed!!!

You could try & let me know ~ however these guys are rhizomatous more than self sowing.

I noticed that on Sunday when I was transplanting them. I ended up dividing mine and breaking off the new shoots that were coming from the sides and under. I do have to say that they are tough guys as I dug them up last Wednesday and was not able to put them in the ground until Sunday due to a week straight of pouring rain. They were a bit dry by Sunday though since Saturday was sunny and they were just sitting out (I know, I know). They look lush and happy now in their new yet temporary home as I do not have a bed where I can put them in yet. I guess I will just have to create a new bed just for them... Oh the sacrifice ;) I wonder what else I could plant there... heehee

Melaroma, I yanked that sucker out roots and all, lol! But maybe after some of the comments here, I won't regret it - I didn't realize it was such a spreader!

I haven't been back to this garden yet (it's a friend's garden) so I will have to check and see if it was indeed the chelone that I yanked. I'm still hoping it was not the chelone, but I now know to keep an eye on it if it's still there!

Dee

I have chelone "Hot Lips" growing in morning sun afternoon shade in rich clay loam and over a period of 10 years it has spread to form a nice clump. It has never shown any tendency to run.'Hot Lips' is a variety of chelone lyonii and seems to be well behaved. I haven't grown chelone obliqua or glabra (white) but from what I've read on various sites obliqua seems to be a vigorous spreader and seeder.

Advice about dividing needed.

I inherited mine probably 25 years ago already in a border, and it is in a garden bed along a wall which probably retains moisture a little better than a freestanding one - and it is in full sun. It has never reseeded - mind you, this bed has really no bare soil but is covered with plants. My turtlehead is however getting bigger than I want - it's the size of a shrub and I want to keep it (nice dark foliage, cute flowers starting about now in NH) but not so big. To dig the whole thing and divide it would be beyond my strength and also would trash things around it. Can I slice through it and take out about 1/2? Has anybody divided it without digging the entire plant? It has around it: ground cover astilbe; ginger; masterwort; lobelia (now that I do have to pull some out every year!); hostas; a stand of tall pl=hlox, and so on.

Maybe the roots are going to be so dense that even trying to drive a sharp spade in will be impossible!

Deorah

Deborah, I would wait until after first frost, cu it back, and then dig out a chunk and just fill in the resulting hole with good soil. I imagine that it won't even show any notice next spring. You may find someone who will take the chunk you've dug if you leave it out by the road with a Free sign or ask friends. If they mulch it well, it should be fine.

I will freecycle it along with a few big clumps of pink phlox!! thanks!

I wouldn't even worry about waiting until the first frost, unless that works best for your timing. I recently dug a chunk out then did a mediocre job planting it in a too-dry spot. I've watered very little and it's doing fine. They're tough plants. I have many growing in areas that can be wet in spring for long periods, but quite dry in summer.

Hmm...then I think I'll put my chunk back in my woodland garden which is shady but dry in summer. thanks

Have used both Chelone obliqua (red) and C. lyonii 'Hot Lips' (pink).

I'd only use the former in a location where part of it is hemmed in on one or more sides. See picture below (August 21, 2011 (left side of picture)); hemmed in by the wall. The sprinkler did reach it in that location and I had to chop out the front of the clump every fall and then replace the bit with good soil (as per NHBabs' advice). That experience warned me off C. obliqua, though I think it's a tall attention-getting Chelone.

Have used 'Hot Lips' in several locations since. It's much more compact than C. obliqua and I've never found it to be a vigorous spreader at all; in fact I'd say sometimes I found that it just lingers.

Beautiful picture showing a wonderful perennial lined walkway.

Thanks, Rouge and very pretty plant(s) yourself.

Your 'Hot Lips' looks so much neater than the Chelone obliqua. Put the latter in the (more or less) formal garden before I'd heard of any C. lyonii.

add that to my shade list - chelone lyonii, no obliqua.

nice pic rouge!

So is my clump - probably more than 25 years old - one of these kinds? Dark green leaves, bright pink flowers blooming starting a week ago in mid-NH zone 5ish (as least these days)?

yes, nice pics!

Thanks SB and 'Lauren'. My HL shown above is one plant. It is about 4 ft by 4 ft.

Here is our obliqua. It is looking quite a bit peaked due to lack of water.

Can anyone ID this one? I bought these at the farmers market with no tag. The seller was away and her helper could only tell me it was a turtlehead. I'm thinking it's an obliqua? So hard to tell from the pics as comparing the with the hotlips...they look so close in color...

Re actual colour, admittedly photographs can lie.

Common names for the two turtlehead species are red turtlehead (Chelone obliqua) and pink turtlehead (C. lyonii). Unlike Rouge, I don't have access to C. obliqua at this time, but my memory is that it is certainly redder than C lyonii 'Hot lips'.

From it's apparent compactness, GardenHo, I'd be very inclined to say it is C. lyonii. I've never seen that species for sale here, only its cultivar 'Hot Lips'.

Thank you Sunny. I did find this on Daves Garden...it states the main difference is in the leaves. I guess I'll never know unless I had both....side by side.

Great information about the foliage difference between the species, GardenHo.

Wish I could check too!

To anyone planning on purchasing or moving turtleheads, I thought I'd share this from another member on GardenWeb:

COMPANION PLANTING An interesting observation was made by gardencommando concerning a possible deterrent effect of Chelone on the beetle.

"this summer we were totally infested with the red Lily Beetle. After reading up on the subject, I used the simple drowning them idea, but modified the mix a little - amonia with dish soap. Although I stalked and killed hundreds of the horrid things, I suffered heavy damage to all the lilies except 1.

The one an only difference that I could find is: the completely undamaged lily has a Turtle head planted on each side of it. I checked on the toxity of Chelone and although it seems to not be edible it says nothing about repelling pests."

Personally, I plan on planting mine on either side of my fritallaria where I spotted beetles last spring and am planning to wage an all-out war against any babies this spring:)

An interesting observation for your further testing, Dina.

At this stage I just avoid plants that can get infested with lily beetles. My gardening is labour intensive enough.

For me, the biggest loss has been toadlilies because of their helpful late bloom time.

Was reading biological control of lily beetles is helping in Europe and that there are high hopes of it eventually working here.

Side issue: read that without prompt treatment, ingesting lily pollen (licked off the fur) can cause a cat a painful death within a week (kidney damage).

Hi Sunny Borders!

If only I'd known about the lily beetle when I moved:) I was a downtown rooftop gardener (mostly herbs & veggies) until 3 years ago when we moved to a 3-acre property. Oh well, live & learn.

I will look into European biological trials. Meanwhile, if I do find the turtleheads act as a deterrent, I'll be sure to update. And, I will warn the only person on our street who lets her cats out. Mine stay indoors. Happy spring!!

Thanks Dina.

My friend David Tomlinson has a 3/4 acre garden (Merlin's Hollow) crammed full of perennials (has 1500 different ones). He's also a practical person.

His main limited stand of lilies is situated right in front of the bench on which he sits after work. That way he sits down and can periodically jump up to squish any lily beetle he sees; so as to speak, killing two birds with one stone; namely lily beetles and a nice cool beer.

Blimey - these are popular! Is there not a naysayer amongst us....apart from (predictably) me.? I have not enough synonyms for ugly, graceless and evilly coloured but I expect you are getting the picture. In a world of fabulous plants, it is a mystery to me that these should be granted even an inch of space...and if I could grow nothing else, I would develop an interest in gravel and rock zen gardens. Surely I am not alone in disliking this pointless disgrace.

Surely I am not alone in disliking this pointless disgrace.

Is this really you Campanula making this post?

I only know you from your almost always knowledgeable, insightful, often clever posts but this one coupled with a similar toned one in the "Teenier Forsythia" is so...harsh? I almost would say mean spirited except we are only talking about plants. Anyways I am just surprised.

Well yes, we are talking about plants...not our offspring or pets. Or even YOUR garden. Just (horrible) plants. And hey - when we have passionate feelings about plants (and I do) then it goes both ways. Also, since the OP actually asked for a critique, I fail to see why it should cause grief when offering mine - ...or do you subscribe to the school of thought which states if 'you have nothing good to say, then say nothing'? But hey, feel free to mock and scoff about my abiding love of umbels, for example - I won't take it personally if you admit to hating cow parsley as bland, boring and dubiously scented...there is room for all sorts of opinions but since I am not being personally critical of anyone here, I have no apologies to offer for having likes and dislikes.

This may be a plant that varies with location - I don't know. For me it has upright stems with healthy foliage in a nice shade of green, and it blooms at a time when there isn't a lot else going on in its bed. I'm not much of a pink fan, but this one looks nice with the surrounding green and maroon foliage and the only other blooms at that time are clematis which it complements. The voles don't seem to enjoy it, either, always a plus in my garden. As others have said, in my garden it isn't a knockout, but it is a low-key and reliable plant. I probably wouldn't grow it if I had a small lot, but with the property I have, I view it as a plus.