I wonder if it could just be the weather. I'm having the same problem with some of my roses and, since I don't spray, I just wait it out until the weather changes. I cut off the ugly and balled blooms and throw them under the bushes as mulch.

Hi Ibuzzell and Ingrid: Thank you for reporting the problems to further our understanding. Kittymoonbeam also reported balling in Hybrid Perpetuals in another thread.

I always speak for myself, but never for others. I also admire that trait in Ingrid, Kitty, and Ibuzzell. In my alkaline clay heavy in limestone (calcium carbonate), balling is never a problem, no matter what's the weather, or how many petals. I'm next to a limestone quarry that manufactures gypsum and lime.

Michaelg once posted an excellent thread on balling and botrytis (petal-browning) as caused by a fungi. He tested calcium spray and it solved the problem.

In my 20+ pots last summer, balling was a problem since I used potting soils. I solved that problem with Comte de Chambord by putting horse manure in the pot, and the next blooms were perfect. Horse manure is high in calcium.

Only the Ball potting soil has gypsum added, that one gave Paul Neyron perfect blooms, even with our constant rain. We average 40" of rain and 23" of snow per year.

This summer with 13 pots, I put gypsum in all my pots .. I also put more into Annie Laurie McDowell as a band ... that one balled last year without gypsum in the pot.

I was surprised that my alkaline clay tested marginally deficient in calcium. I have barely enough ... never mind that I'm next to a plant that makes gypsum from our limestone bed. Some info:

1) High potassium and high nitrogen drives down calcium. When I tested acid fertilizer high in nitrogen on Paul Neyron, he balled up, and refused to open. I had to transfer him into Ball potting soil with gypsum, and he gave perfect blooms. I haven't tested if high potassium drives down calcium, that one I doubt.

2) Alkalinity in soil drives down calcium. Calcium can't be released from limestone unless acid is added.

Thanks so much for the excellent info, strawberryhill! I didn't realize that balling and botrytis were two different things - good to know. We'll definitely add some horse manure, calcium and coffee grounds (for acid) and maybe some oyster shells - hope that perks them up!

Hey Linda -- It ain't rocket science.

It's the weather.

Our foggy Gold Coast spring weather.

It will pass, as the weather warms up, and you're no longer living in perpetual fog and gloom.

Etoile will open just nicely with no problems, if you remove the guard (outer) petals. (Or, you can wait for warm weather)

Blush Noisette is also affected by our weather, but in this case, the blooms do not drop cleanly, and will sit there like little gobs of dirty Kleenex, if you don't deadhead them. And since they open onesie-twosie, I often snap off offending blooms as they fade.

Jeri
(HEY! The sun came out today!)

I'm glad to see the sun here for 10 minutes today in our rainy spring. It's so gloomy here that we can go for the entire month, November, without seeing the sun. I'm vitamin D-deficient and take mega-dose of that stuff.

Gypsum, or calcium sulfate, is made when sulfuric acid reacts with calcium carbonate (from limestone). Acid rain can do the same, but takes longer. My neighbor has blossom-end-rot on his tomato planted in a pot. I don't have that problem with my tomatoes planted in limestone clay for the past 13 years.

University of Florida has this info: "Research in Florida indicates that excessive magnesium, potassium, sodium, ammonium salts or a deficiency of soluble calcium salts causes a decrease in calcium uptake, thus favoring development of the disorder."

Calcium regulates the osmotic pressure of cell, and helps blooms to open properly. In hydroponic experiment, the biggest root growth was done with high potassium plus calcium added to the soluble fertilizer.

Linda,

Being in the same town, we have the same thing with almost all of the roses. Poor Don Juan looks extra sad. All that humidity, then wind and now yesterdays drizzle. More of the roses here will ball or have some brown edge petals than will not. And it is not for a lack of horse manure....

Linda,

My experience is if there are three drops of moisture in the air, Etoile de Lyon will get brown guard petals. I currently have a bush with hundreds of blooms (except deep in the protected interior of the shrub) with brown guard petals due to a brief rain shower or two (nooooo! -- and it wasn't even enough to water the garden properly) and a few foggy mornings.

It's just what it does and I've pretty much come to expect the first flush to be viewable only at a distance because, climate being what it is, it almost always happens. I've come to regard Etoile as my "dog days of summer" champion, because when it is bone-dry and hotter-than-Hades, no rose looks better out there. Its foliage is perfect, no matter what, and the blooms heat tolerant as can be.

The Australian tea book mentions this among its faults. Like the authors, I forgive the rose because of the good flushes, which are a joy. (Vintage has a rather understated warning in its blurb: "...will not do well in rain or with overhead irrigation." I'll say!)

Debbie

Debbie & Kippy are right on.

AAMOF, it's one of the reasons I try to avoid roses with a very high petal count. I KNOW that's going to happen. In really bad conditions, it can even happen to Grandmother's Hat.

Don't worry about it. It's the price we pay for living in "La La Land."

Jeri

Thanks, everyone. The good news is that 'Etoile de Lyon' and 'Blush Noisette' are the only roses we have that are exhibiting this problem. And the problem with 'Etoile de Lyon' is that it's now full sized and in a strategic position just off our patio so it's hard to ignore when in full flush and every bloom is damaged! I guess I'll just deadhead the whole bush and wait for a second flush. But I'll still try some of the remedies that strawberryhill recommended too...

If you can reach them to deadhead, try just removing the guard petals. They should look fine, after that.

We no longer have EdL, but that's what I used to do, in the spring.

Jeri

Thanks, Jeri. We'll try that. It's such a heartbreaker, as Etoile de Lyon is now a big bush and absolutely covered with blooms. I don't think I could bear to rip it out, though. I'll just get rid of this lot and hope for a repeat.

Etoile de Lyon looks nasty and brown in my garden, which has had no fog and no rain. If it doesn't produce some nice blossoms at some time during the year, its days are numbered.
Anita

Thanks Kippy, for mentioning about horse manure as not that effective, with regard to botrytis. I checked the percentage of calcium in horse manure, very little: Here's the ratio: Nitrogen of 0.5, phosphorus of 0.3, potassium of 0.6, calcium of 0.3, and magnesium of 0.1.

The biggest drawback of any manure if the amount of salt, which NEGATES the benefits of calcium for osmotic pressure. Check out this link below: "Manure commonly contain 4 to 5% soluble salts (dry weight basis) and may run as high as 10%. To illustrate, an application of 5 tons of manure containing 5% salt would add 500 lbs. of salt."

I would get calcium as gypsum, or calcium sulfate, which has zero effect on the pH of the soil. My clay soil is already fertile, alkaline, and high in salt ... there's no need for manure. But I still need to add gypsum per my soil test's recommendation.

Here is a link that might be useful: Analysis of Manure by Ecochem Agriculture

Etoile will almost always open beautifully if you remove the guard petals. It's just a peculiarity of the rose. Anita, do you recall Mel Hulse talking about that?

Jeri

I wish I had time to remove guard petals from every bloom on my bush, but sadly no... I guess I'm just doomed to deadheading the whole spring flush, which kind of negates the whole point of having this rose where it is. But I just don't have the heart to remove it after 6 years of growth when it finally got some size. What a dilemma!
On the calcium issue, what about oyster shells?

What's interesting to me is that a rose with a gazillion petals like Bishop's Castle or Young Lycidas has not balled at all while Coquette des Blanches had exactly one bloom that hasn't balled, and its blooms are smaller, with fewer petals. I love the fragrance but she's done nothing since I got her more than two years ago. If she doesn't show improvement through the rest of the year she's gone. One less rose to water, not a bad thing.

Ingrid

Linda, I thought about you today as I wandered Otto's rose fields. So many of their roses had balled as well. I think it was a hard spring on them.

Ingrid -- Allow me to make you feel better . . .

We grew Coquette des Blanches for FIVE years.
We watched it grow for the first three FLOWER-LESS years. (Have I mentioned that I am patient?)

In year four, we had a cold winter (for us) and it put forth ONE magnificent spray. I photographed that, which was good, because it was not followed by any more.

In year five, we had a normal winter, and there were NO blooms.

After that, Coquette des Blanches went to live in the landfill, because there was little point in placing that plant anywhere else in my area.

Jeri

Hi Ibuzzell: Oyster shell is calcium carbonate, DOES NOT dissolve in water, neutral pH, won't do much.

My minor is in chemistry so I did experiments when I first got into roses: I was testing someone's remark that dolomitic clay grows good Austin roses (many petals). Dolomotic clay is 10% magnesium and 25% calcium carbonate.

We got non-stop rain & gloomy weather in November, yet Austin roses gave their best form in my limestone clay. In that cold & wet month I picked the blooms and dunked them in 1) Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) 2) Calcium carbonate 3) Calcium citrate (dissolve easier)

The blooms had a harder time opening with Epsom salt solution, and the scent went from damask to sewage. Magnesium is what makes clay soil sticky.

Calcium carbonate has zero effect, can't even dissolve in my alkaline tap water. I could put more citric acid (use for sprouting), but I would need a lot to lower the pH to the point that calcium carbonate (oyster shell) can dissolve.

What happened in rainy November here: rain water is acidic, pH 5.6, which helped to release calcium from my limestone clay. But my blooms are lousy when watered with my alkaline tap water, both in form and color.

Calcium citrate was awesome for the blooms. I DOUBLED the vase life of blooms, since they retain more water. The petals became rigid, firmer, and more photogenic. Check out Radio Times and Mary Magdalene below, picked in wet & cold November: