***"manual transmissions are only in the cheaper mowers"***
Not exactly a "cause and effect" statement.
The reason most "cheaper mowers" feature a manual transmission is because it is less costly to manufacture a manual transmission than a comparable duty hydrostatic drive tranny.
Hydrostatic drive transmissions have excellent retarding capability but, as you are wisely skeptical, an under-rated (not robust enough for the task) hydrostat will be short lived under hilly/heavy load conditions.
Tractors like Ingersolls with true hydraulic drive systems afford the same kind of retarding ability found in hydrostatic transmissions.

First reply is spot on regarding hydrostatic transmissions. Generally a hydro in the same chassis with the same engine raises retail price $200 to $500 for more. And hydro's are more susceptible to abuse when mis applied (such as light lawn tractor used for ground engaging or heavy towing).

The CVT (variator) is a slightly different breed of cat. It is used by MTD as an inexpensive semi-auto transmission and can be cheaper than a gear type manual. On the other hand, the older Deere variators used the same principal but were very robust.

The CVT is running away from you downhill because you are using it wrong. As you are aware, CVT always starts in lowest gear, no matter whether level or on slope and continues to shift up as the ground speed increases. It stops shifting when it reaches the speed you set on the lever. If you set at "4", transmission starts at "1" and then as speed increases, pulley relationships are changed from "2" to "3" and then "4" as ground speed increases. If you are on a slope, CVT starts as "deep" as necessary to get moving and will shift up, but no more than necessary to maintain rpms.

If you start on a down slope in "7", CVT will start in deepest ratio but then upshift as ground speed increases and then continue to do so all the way to maxium speed setting on the control lever. That is why it is running away. If you want engine braking on a down grade, you need to start in the lowest setting likely to be appropriate for the hill, such as "1" or "2". CVT will stay in that setting and provide engine braking. If you move the lever, however, it will be very difficult to downshift, and it will be necessary to bring machine to complete stop and start over again.

Not true on the CVT explanation on my (now sold...Thank God!) Ariens mower. I know better than to give the transmission full acceleration going down a hill. I would much prefer to take it slow like a crawl for better control and that's what I did.

This will sound awful... Sometimes, to counter the free wheeling, I would shift the transmission into reverse to help slow my descent or forward if I needed to backup when going up a steep hill. It would work on medium grades but would still free wheel if I went down the steepest part in my yard. Then once I slowed down enough for the transmission to stop free wheeling, it would leave a 10 foot dual skid mark. Scariest transmission I've ever used in my life.

Yeah, on the cvt your only hope is the pulleys hold on to the belts. Once they let go... If it is that steep of a hill, I would be concerned with overall traction in regards to heft of the machine and tires as well. I think that a HD hydro may be a little more forgiving when changing directions on a slope. Remember when you clutch, at that moment you are relying on the brake only. A sturdy GT in the used market may be better for you with the money you wish to spend.

What's a GT mower? I did a quick search and brought up Cub Cadet's, yardman, MTD, John Deere, etc.

I'm not necessarily a Craftsman GT (Garden Tractor) advocate, but I have nothing against them either, especially for the price point. They do offer one or two models of GT's with the venerable 3-speed gearbox with hi and low ranges (for a total of 6 speeds). They are built for ground engagement, and have decks either 48-in. or 54-in. wide. Seems to me a good choice for the price.

Just to put in my $.02 on "what's a GT mower".
There are LT...Lawn Tractor
There are GT...Garden Tractor
There are sometimes YT...Yard Tractor
Then there are just plain mowers.
The Garden Tractor is supposed to be the most athletic of the bunch and capable of utilizing implements to do "gardening tasks", such as plowing the soil, dragging disc harrows and most desirable (if you're into gardening) is that some machines in the GT class can also power a tiller. Arrrrgh!!
The trouble is that OEMs are tempted to rate a machine as more capable than it really is.
And worse, some consumers buy a lesser class of machine and then try to do all sorts of jobs with the that they aren't up to doing.

larso1 wrote:

"They do offer one or two models of GT's with the venerable 3-speed gearbox with hi and low ranges (for a total of 6 speeds). They are built for ground engagement, and have decks either 48-in. or 54-in. wide. Seems to me a good choice for the price."

I have personal experience with this 3 speed dual range gearbox on a Craftsman GT5000. For mowing it is useless. There is no speed that is right for mowing and subsequently you have to ride the clutch a lot. Mowing around trees and obstructions is very difficult with this transmission. My neighbor even went to the extent of changing the rear wheel size to find an acceptable mowing speed. I live in the flat lands of Florida, so I do not have any experience on how it would handle hills. And, BTW, the 'low' range moves the tractor so slowly that it is also useless for mowing.

If you want to know more about GT's, specifically the Craftsman GT series which are the direct descendants of the Sears Suburban, go to Sears/Craftsman forum at MTF.

With respect to BriggsGalaxieman, I have a ten year old GT with a 26 HP engine and the venerable 6 speed. I mow 4.5 acres and some of it is rather steep. If you don't know how to shift gears to find the right speed, don't blame the equipment. However, if you're used to a hydro and constantly "feather" the pedal up and down, that's a whole 'nother issue. Another possibility for your bad experience could be you weren't running at wide open throttle which is the only position you should use for any mowing.

For the price point, the older GT's couldn't be beat. I don't know about the new ones.

just my two cents,

Ev

exmar,

I like your comments. Maybe you can help me understand what I am doing wrong with my 6 speed - dual range transaxle.

First of all, just to be sure we are talking about the same transaxle:

GT5000...Model # 917.276071
Transaxle #174741
The vintage is about 2003

Yes, I ALWAYS mow at wide open throttle.

Simply put...4th gear is much too slow to mow. 5th gear is too fast to mow. So, I use 5th gear and have to 'ride the clutch' whenever the 'going gets rough', due to bumps or longer grass, or when I have to cut around the hundreds of trees on my property. Again, all of my property is flat. Hills are not a factor.

I used to own an early 90s Craftsman with a 4 speed manual. The 4th gear was perfect for mowing and it just required a little clutch around trees. I wish the GT5000 was geared the same.

BriggsGMan, sounds like you have the wrong machine for the job. With "hundreds of trees" on your property really the only way to go is with a ZTR. Life is too short to putt around all day shifting gears on a riding tractor-mower with that kind of lot, which must be fairly large to have hundreds of trees.

I had a riding tractor mower, now I have a ZTR...there is no comparison. You don't have to buy top of the line and you don't have to buy new. There are lots of nice used ones out there.

Your GT would be fine for a more open area where you can set and forget the ground speed. And in fact, some on here have said they prefer the manual tranny in that instance because they grew weary of holding their foot on the speed control pedal of a hyrostat. Apparently the "cruise control" on some of those leaves something to be desired for maintaining consistent ground speed.

I mowed about three acres for several years with an MTD CVT rider. I really liked the continuously variable speed of the thing, and was amazed how simple the mechanism was when I had to replace the belt after six years. Now, I must admit I never used a manual transmission rider or a true hydrostatic model, but the MTD (branded as MTD) mower did the job just fine. If I pushed it all the way it was too fast, but just ease off the pedal and you get any speed you need. It died on me last year because of rodent damage to the wiring, but I had to fix a number of issues with it over the years, mainly due to a very poor design of the steering and front end. It would make really tight turns, which was important to me because I have lots of trees, but the combination of tight turn, weak wheel linkage, and my heavy foot on the pedal, in association with lots of dips and bumps in the ground, resulted in bent front end components and even losing front wheels. HOWEVER, the CVT was great and sturdy, and probably is still fine even if it is part of a now dead machine. Going down hill, I used the brake.

Chuck

Briggs,

Glad to. Way back in the history of Sears, who ever made these tractors for them decided it was inconvenient to change range (hi-lo) if you were in high mowing and wanted to slow down. Soooo, ignore what the gear pattern shows, 4th is actually slower than 3rd. I was scratching my a-- over this one too until I happened to look in the manual at ground speed per gear and there it was. After you get your head around this bit of "Engineering Excellence" it sort of makes sense. I usually mow in lo range 3rd gear which is actually 4th in terms of ground speed in terms of gear choices...... 5th and 6th are purely for transport due to speed unless you're into bouncing.

I'm a retired Engineer myself, but this one still has me scratching, after you get used to it though, you compensate or something. And it works well. Just very screwy.

Ev

Briggs,

Sorry to leave, but "the one who must be obeyed" (a.k.a. the mean redhead) was calling.....

My tractor is a 917.275972, transaxle is 174742. Wonder what the significance of the last digit is as yours ends in "1"?

From the manual, lo range 3rd gear is 2.3 mph, and hi range 1st (4th) gear is 1.7mph. hi range 2nd gear (5th) is 3.3mph. So you were going from 3.3 to 1.7 or giving up half your speed.

I'm guessing that the original thinking was that it would be useful to have a higher gear in lo range and a lower gear in hi range????? Maybe??? When you're used to it, it works like anything else, you compensate.

I still like the "venerable" 6 speeds but they definitely have their quirks.

Ev

Hey exmar, I know other cool words too. Just let me know when you need one....

Hey Larsol, since you're an ME, (I was an EE, actually I&C) perhaps you could provide some insight into the gearing arrangement on these GT's from a human factors design standpoint.....:-)

Ev

exmar,

You are a LIFESAVER!

I recently purchased this GT5000 6-speed manual mower as a backup to my aging GT5000 hydrostatic. Everything was great until I tried to mow with it. The gears are numbered from 1 to 6 next to the shift lever. I tried mowing in 4th...too slow. So, I tried mowing in 5th...too fast. I never thought to try 3rd! Why would 3rd be faster than 4th? What a dummy I am....

After reading your last post, I downloaded the Operators Manual for the GT5000 with manual transmission. There is no mention in the operating instruction as to what gear should be used to mow. But, as you mentioned, the specifications section tells the story. Here is what they tell you about gear ratios (Gear numbers added by me):

{{gwi:315585}}

It sure would have been nice if they had included, for dummies like me, the actual gear number in the specifications.

When I read your post last night I was very anxious to try 3rd gear. All night it was like Christmas Night waiting for Santa Claus. Today, at first light, I was mowing in 3rd gear and loving it!

Thanks again exmar.....

Glad to be of help. I've got a warm and fuzzy feeling at being able to "give back" and help someone in exchange for all the good info and help I've gotten here.

The gear arrangement is weird, but sounds like you're getting your head around it just fine.

Be well,

Ev

Umm, yah, that gear shift pattern relative to ground speed is, umm, very straightforward (eyes rolling upward). Uhh, just like I would have designed it...uhh...

I think as an example you could compare this to a 12 or 18 speed bicycle, with lots of overlap between the ratios when you're switching between the two (or three) front chain rings. Then it makes sense....to me anyway.

Hey, jfw432, apologies, got so busy "touting" the 6 speed trannies that I forgot the original question.

From my experience, manual transmissions in tractors are like manual transmissions in cars and trucks. The CVT's are another issue and if you understand them, they work OK. We have a JD 110 here that may get restored one of these days.

Hydro's do "hold back" going down hills, the more expensive the machine, the better it does. IMHO I don't like hydro's I have one on a Roper which was given to me and that's the only one I have. With a manual trans, there is a direct mechanical linkage between the rear tires and the speed of the engine-period. You want to crawl up a hill at idle and crawl down the other side it'll do fine. If you've ever driven a truck and used engine compression to save the brakes that's the idea.

Qualifiers on the above, the trans is connected to the engine by a belt, and if it's worn, idlers misadjusted, or breaks or comes off you're in for a wild ride. Hydros also connect by a belt, same considerations would seem to apply. I'll defer to others who are more familiar with them to address that. Also with hydros you have to disengage (little lever on the rear or someplace) the trans to free wheel it no idea what would happen if you lose the belt going down a hill. Again, defer to those who know.

Another consideration is tire tread and are you holding back a trailer going down a hill? Regular turf tires are useless if you need traction and if the grass is wet or recently mowed....

{{gwi:315586}}

Photo is an aerial view of part of my farm, as you can see, none of it is level, and I mow with a GT with the 6 speed trans and AG tires for traction. Hmm, maybe you can't, the area directly beneath the truck is a bank with about a 18% grade, the rest varies but wouldn't try to mow it without a manual trans and adequate tire tread.

Just my two cents.

Ev