OOOOOO-er -- ICK!

Sherry, how high was the pH?

Jeri

sherry, I'm no expert. Nor do I "test" my soil. I probably won't unless I forsee something absolutely terrible. I just wanted to say, it may be better in the long run to feed the soil...ammend the soil with organics, and ultimately, the soil should find a good balance. I do realize there are certain situations that this advice may not work (so please don't throw things at me for this suggestion)...

It's just a thought.

Robert

Jeri & Robert, the plants (10 of them - 4 GaA's, 4 Marie's & 2 Chinas - all real young) had yellow or pale leaves and very few leaves. The PH was hugging 7, and the fert was very low. I don't think I damaged anything - just made the flowers ugly. I don't usually think about testing either, but I was trying to figure out what was making them so puny. This is a new bed from December and the horse manure compost had some wood chips & a good bit of hay in it (I took the big clumps out.) So I'm thinking that carbon used up my nitrogen. Also, I didn't fertilize real heavy last time. I was TRYING to follow directions rather than my usual method of "a lot should work REAL good." I was going to drench with ferrous sulfate, but the directions said to spray the leaves with the iron, and I added fish emulsion to the mix, getting the soil real good, too. Then went back and scratched in milorganite. I'm going to switch off with the fertilizers & use rose food next. And I guess I'll be doing it once a month for a while.

Since I never tested before, I always figured I was over-fertilizing but maybe not. This is going to be the hard part for me - tweaking the maintenance. Digging the holes was easy. Getting them to some kind of minimal peak performance (like with GREEN leaves) isn't as easy as it sounds.

Has this not happened to anyone else before? If not, it figures.

Sherry

Not flat roses on shirts? Oh.

I suppose you could bag each flower before spraying, but it seems a lot of work for a problem which solves itself in a few days.

Well, look, I was going to say -- and this is NOT scientific -- that our pH is much worse. 8.3 to 8.5

I've struggled for years with this, but soil sulfur spread near the water emitters seems to be the most effective approach of the many I have used.
You can add all the iron in the world, but if the pH is too high, the plants will be unable to access it.

Jeri

Why not use blood meal with your fertilizer? It has iron in it and won't harm the plants. Blood meal is high in nitrogen, so you would need to watch how much total nitrogen you are giving the plant. Too much will burn. The iron from the blood meal will do wonders for the flower colors.

I made this mistake once. It was pretty awful, so you have all my sympathy.

But, just for your information not all iron spray solutions paint the roses dirty grey or black. There arefluid iron sprays that are colorless.

Isn't a Ph of 7 just about neutral? I honestly don't think that you have a Ph or iron problem - just need some added nitrogen.

Iron deficiency usually shows up with pale leaves with darker veins. Nitrogen deficiency shows as paler leaves, overall. Lack of water can also lead to paler leaves.

Did you mix the compost and manure into the soil in the new bed, or just spread it on top? In my Master Gardener training, they said that wood chips or other mulch on the surface of the soil doesn't rob the soil of nitrogen, but mixing it in does. They strongly advocated only spreading the materials on top of the soil, and it seems to work.

Is your soil sandy? Nitrogen is water soluble and washes right through. I am blessed (cursed) with clay, and it certainly holds the nutrients better. You might want to try a slow-release rose food, rather than water-soluble. When I'm trying to push potted roses, I give them half-strength water-soluble fertilizer as well as something like Osmocote. You could do the same thing with your plants in the ground. However, I really do think that long-term you should focus on trying to get an active, living soil. Lots of rich organic mulch on the surface is key.

I have had bad luck burning plants using fish emulsion. I think that I mix it too strongly, but it's really infuriating to burn leaves when I'm using something organic.
Anita

*** You can add all the iron in the world, but if the pH is too high, the plants will be unable to access it.

Jeri, I can't possibly tell you anything new, but I was just reading on an organic retail website. It said that foliar feeding is a good way to overcome the soil's inability to transfer nutrients to the plant and that nutrients could be found in the roots within 60 minutes. Your PH is much higher than mine. It's amazing you have such beautiful roses. How much lower does your soil test where you have "soil sulfur spread near the water emitters". That would work with a soaker, too, ya think? I used it in preparing the bed, but I understand it's very slow acting.

Bustopher, I hesitate to use Blood Meal much. I did use it in preparing the bed. It can be a fast-release, and I've always heard that the N number should be down in the 6 or 8 range. In checking on all this I discovered that Milorganite is 4% iron.

Ceterum, it sounds like you're saying this IS a superficial effect, right? I bought my Liquid Iron at Lowe's. Some of this stuff is hard to find. I just mail-ordered dry Ferrous Sulfate. Whether it would have painted the roses, I do not know. This sounds dumb, but I didn't want to use up all the FeS I just bought so I used the liquid. Plus I was too tired to make and lug all the gallons of drench. But I think the spray may turn out to be a good thing - just not for the current blooms.

Sherry

*** Iron deficiency usually shows up with pale leaves with darker veins.

Anita, that is exactly what some of my plants have. One cane has several leaves like that and another cane doesn't. I didn't know what that indicated.

I did mix the compost in with the sand and I added a good bit of organic nitrogen. I don't use the water-soluble or Osmocote. With our sand and heavy rains I figured the organics were better, but they do get used up. I figured the hay and wood shavings would deplete the N, but with no experience at this I had no way of knowing how long that would take. I think I will continue with the organics at least monthly and add more compost on top and let the soil build up. I know 7 is neutral but the soil in my yard is weird. It's got limestone rocks and clumps of gray clay (not tons of it) that when dry is whitish. I try to remove as much as I can. But I'm afraid I probably have areas (pockets) that are worse than 7, especially now while the bed is so new.

Sherry

"I was just reading on an organic retail website. It said that foliar feeding is a good way to overcome the soil's inability to transfer nutrients to the plant and that nutrients could be found in the roots within 60 minutes."

This would be perfect for me. My ph is 8.0... Any suggestions as to a good NPK fertilizer foliar feed?

Foliar feeding is fast, but it can only transfer very small amounts of nutrients. For the major nutrients, foliar feeding really can't do the job. For the micro nutrients, and iron is one of these, foliar feeding is at least feasible and is probably the fastest way to cure iron-deficiency symptoms in the leaves. It still might not be the best way, I've burned a lot of rose leaves, not just blossoms, with soluble iron sprays. Lowering soil pH with elemental sulfur is often touted as the best way to cure an iron deficiency. I'm not at all convinced of the truth of this, either. The two longest-lasting treatments for iron defiency that I've tried are: 1)Mix a cup of ferrous sulfate with a 5 gallon bucket of peat moss or compost and apply this as a mulch around the base of the plant. Supposedly, natural organic chelates in the mulch act to feed soluble forms of iron to the plant. 2) Mix equal amounts of ferrous sulfate with elemental sulfur and place this in discrete pockets around the dripline of the plant. Supposedly, this creates localized pockets of acidity which gradually release soluble iron to the plant.

Sherry, about those soil testers: if you have a good one, it'll tell you the correct soil pH, which can be valuable. But ignore the nitrogen readings. Even the university soil testing laboratories don't have a reliable test for predicting nitrogen requirements. The pocket meters measure nitrate-nitrogen only, and this is not an especially useful basis for predicting how much fertilizer to add.

Like Mike, I have burned foliage, using foliar feeding.
And the benefits here seem to be very transitory (Which makes sense).
NOT very scientific, we have not tested the soil separately for a long time.
But we've worked with this for 20+ years.
In that time, sulfur to lower the pH seems to have had the most beneficial effect of any of the various solutions.
Nor has it had any damaging side effects.
So that's the direction I believe we'll continue to follow.

Not saying it will work that way for others, but that's the situation HERE.

Jeri

Mike, what about the test kits that you mix soil & water then a chemical to arrive at a color on the chart? Do they work? How am I supposed to know the status of my soil?

"1)Mix a cup of ferrous sulfate with a 5 gallon bucket of peat moss or compost"

Do you mean a cup of dry FeS OR a cup of dry dissolved in water OR a cup of the liquid iron (FeS)?

Jeri, how low have you been able to get your PH with your method (which I acknowledge is probably the best way since you've been at it a long time)? I added soil sulfur to the new bed, but it has not had enough time to work. Probably if I can get the plants through the first year, they'll be OK. They just look poor. (Small pale leaves or no leaves.) It's obvious something is deficient in their nutrition.

Well, I just found part of the problem. I bought Purely Organic Rose Food from a CR in our Rose Society. The bag was plain white with no directions which were on a separate piece of paper somewhere else. I used 1 cup per plant. The paper says use 3 cups. That could make a difference!!! But still I have no baseline to start with.

Really, though, is iron unavailable at 6.8 PH? Is something else at play? The County Extension is only open at very odd times when I'm working. I guess somehow I'm going to have to get a sample to them. I wonder how long it takes to get the results.

Thanks everyone.

Sherry

I just wanted to add support to what others have said. A pH of 7 for your roses is not bad. I have read that they like 6.5-7 so you are in a good range and should not have to amend the pH. My own pH is around 8 and only a few of my roses are cholorotic, mostly rugosas and hybrid multifloras. The rest are just fine. Some of my citrus don't like the alkalinity either, and I just sprayed some chelated micronutrients on them.

That ignores the question of why your roses have few and yellow leaves (although the rose plant in the picture doesn't look bad as far as leaves go). I don't know the answer. I did notice that you live in Florida, notorious for nematodes which attack roses. Are your roses on resistant fortuniana rootstock? I don't know what roses attacked by harmful nematodes look like, but if they are harming the roots, I would imagine the leaves might look a bit pale. Can someone more knowledgeable chime in here?

Rosefolly

Sherry, we haven't tested again.
The leaves are deep green, the plant is growing well and flowering like mad, so . . .
But look, at 6.8, your roses should be ECSTATIC.
I don't think it's pH.
I agree with Rosefolly. You must look elsewhere for the problem.
And, for that matter, how old are these plants?
Are they very young, and perhaps putting more into root development than topgrowth?

Jeri (Just wonderin')

Dr. Nicolas in his enjoyable 1937 'Rose Odyssey' casts doubts on the belief that roses demand slightly acid soil, documenting the Ph of the soil in the major rose producers in Europe. The Aussel garden in the French Riviera produced thousands of cut flowers, taken by train to Paris, with soil Ph of 8.0. Most of the other gardens had Ph of 7.1 to 7.9. He had the soil tested at Cornell, so the results should be correct. His theory is that roses do best in slightly alkaline, well-aerated soil. Interesting that we are still debating about this 70 years later!

I think that Rosefolly's question about nematodes is good. Also, don't forget that not all roses have deep green leaves. Jean Bach Sisley is a bit yellowish for us. I recently saw a R. gigantea, and its leaves are positively olive green.
Anita

And I might add that MANY roses grow quite happily in our 8.3 pH, so Nicolas' observation may well be true.

For us, it is the Rugosa and Multiflora families that are unhappy in alkaline conditions.

Jeri

These roses have only been in the ground since december and January. And, yes, Jean Bach Sisley is in much better shape. It had been in a 2-gallon pot for who knows how long and was a large when I planted it.

As to the nematodes, all these roses are own-root but I kinda think it's too soon for that. That's why I used so much compost in the soil, trying to beat the nematodes. The GaA's are about 15" tall. They leafed out well, have been blooming their heads off. One totally defoliated, but now has leafed out again. Parade got some growth that was immediately pale with green veins, then threw out a big ole cane all green and beautiful. The pale leaves are still there. Two M. Daleys & 2 M. Pavies put out some nice canes with big, green leaves, then a couple weeks ago started putting out pale olive, small leaves - the size of a dime & kind of crumpled. They've been blooming all along. A China, Purpurea, was magnificent, throwing out canes like crazy & blooming, now it's practically bare with a few blooms. These plants run single file along the driveway and up the front sidewalk, so it covers a lot of area.

Could it be that I under-fertilized them a month ago and in the midst of their growth spurt they've just depleted the soil?

Sherry

Sherry, don't have any suggestions about what's wrong with your roses but concerning soil pH: The white cliffs of Dover are limestone and this might suggest that a fair share of the Scepter'd Isle has alkaline soil, yet the British do grow acceptable roses. The online Harkness catalog actually used to state that roses preferred a slightly alkaline soil.

Sherry, I suspect they're just young roses.
They need to be allowed to come along at a pace which is natural for them.
Don't try to push them too hard.
These are roses that naturally mature slowly.
They normally take a few years to build up a twiggy substructure which supports their energy.

Give them three or four years, and see what they can do.

Jeri

Thank you, Mike and Jeri, for your encouraging words. That's a lovely fact about English soil. It truly touched me to hear that mine might have some likeness to it. And I have seen how tough roses are so I'll just feed and water them the best I can, hoping for the best. And I guess I can lay aside that worry about alkalinity and move on to the next - laying out soaker hoses tomorrow.

Thanks again, Anita, Rosefolly, Decobug, Bustopher, Ceterum and Robert for your help and tutoring.

Sherry

Mike, you want to talk Alkaline?

{{gwi:254086}}

Best wishes
Jon

Sherry, you misunderstood me. Or I misunderstand you know. I use iron when I see sign of iron deficiency; sometimes I use it even if iron deficiency does not show up, for example in August when the foliage looks tired.

Any suggestions as to a good NPK fertilizer foliar feed?

I have been using Response as foliar feed for years and I like it. You can mail order it, I think from Ohio; one quart goes a long way because you need 2 teaspoon per gallon of water if I recall correctly. I mail ordered it till I talked an organic supply store owner to carry it, so I don't know how much shipping costs now but a few years ago it was reasonable. I ordered 2 bottles because I dislike paying a lot - and repeatedly - for shipping.
Maybe Rosemania also carries Response.

*** Ceterum, it sounds like you're saying this IS a superficial effect, right?

ceterum, is this what I misunderstood? Is the black on the flowers more than superficial damage?

Jon, my goodness! That's amazing! BTW, what was the reason for the excavation? Where is that? Are the roses happy?

Sherry

Sherry, that's the hole dug for a new septic tank and soakaway line in my garden two seasons ago. It is replanted now and doing well. It does go to illustrate Mike's point about the White Cliffs - I only have 6 to 12 inches of topsoil before hitting solid chalk.

Best wishes
Jon

Jon, you should post your photo of The White Chasms of Wessex whenever anyone mentions the preferred pH of roses. By the way, how do you manage to grow roses in that yard?

Yes, Sherry, it is only temporary and superficial But I would not call it 'damage'. The blooms are ugly know (I know, was there), but it has no detrimental consequence for you roses when the next series of buds open. Maleur, nothing more.