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GT5000 Briggs Engine w/ power loss problem

17 years ago

Hi ,

I have a 2004 GT5000 Craftsman lawn tractor with the Briggs 446777 engine. Ive recently notice a major power loss. It has always run pretty good for the pass for 4 yrs until now, after reading all the online posts on this engine with the filter design flaw, I'm lucky it went this long. I noticed this year when I changed the plugs that the left side cylinderÂs plug was black with a lot of carbon build up, but the right sides cylinder plug was normal with very little carbon build up. After noticing this problem I started the engine with the left side plug wire pulled off so I was only running on the right side cylinder and there was no change to the engine speed that IÂve seen for the past month. However, when I pulled the right side cylinder plug wire and run off the left side cylinder, the engine would only idle and when given more gas it would die. So, I know there is something definitely going on with the left side of the engine. I checked for a good spark and itÂs there. After reading all the online posts on this engine IÂm almost certain I have the same problem with dust getting into the carburetor since IÂm always mowing dusty flat pastures. I clean the air filter every time I mow, but that obviously is not going to do much it sounds like with the design flaw of this engine.

My question is this, this engine appears to not be burning any oil yet since it always stays full and there is no engine knocking yet either =). So do you think IÂm just fighting a dirty carburetor here where gas is being restricted to the left side cylinder somehow or does the left side cylinder have compression loss due to worn rings or something. I donÂt have a way to check for compression loss, but the plug appears to be dry on the bad side when I pull it out after running it. Can someone give me a little direction with this problem on how to possibly resolve it in order to maybe save this $900+ engine =) I would like to get it It is fixed! then I will address modifying the air filter design somehow, now that I know about it. I hope IÂve caught this in time to save the engine =)

Also, if anyone has a good fix for the air filter cavity, I would like to know about that too if possible =)

Thanks in advance,

Robert

Comments (12)

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I suspect a blown head gasket on that side.

    Remove the valve cover on that side and start the engine. See if you can observe a "vapor" blowing out on the push rod side of the cylinder.
    Also make sure the push rods aren't broken, bent or dislodge. Not uncommon.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thanks for the comments. I actually did a compression test on both cylinders today. The bad side was 120PSI and the good side was 135PSI that should indicate the head gasket is ok wouldn't it? I took off the carburetor today and it's pretty dirty. Maybe a jet is plugged that feeds that side or something. There is also a rubber o-ring in the bowl that goes around the fuel solenoid that is also very deformed. What do you think?

    Thanks,
    R.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Bill, I did what you had said above by removing the valve cover. I noticed the top rod was quite lose, but the bolt to the rocker arm was tight. As I rotated the flywheel around I noticed the top rocker arm bearly moves in and out, but the bottom rocker arm moves in/out normally. Would this appear to be a broken rocker arm? As I look down the shaft it looks intack. I pulled off the other value cover on the other side that works and both rods move in and out normally so there is definitely something wrong with the top rod. How hard are these to replace? Is this a complete tear down?

    Thanks,
    Robert

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Just a follow-up. I started the engine up with the valve cover off the bad side and sure enough the head gasket is blowing oil. What's weird too is the top valve which I think is the intake valve barely moves even if I put pressure on rod against the camshaft. I pulled the rod out and its fine so its got to be something internal related to the camshaft. The bottom valve appears to function fine. I have seen a lot of other posts where this engine has a known defect with the camshaft as well as the air filter design. I which this would have happened before the warranty ran out a few years ago like all the other folks with this engine. I have a call into Briggs to see what they will do, which is probably nothing.

    I was thinking about replacing the engine. How hard is it to pull the pulleys off the crankshaft on the bottom side. Does anyone have steps on how to do this? Also is the BRIGGS AND STRATTON 44P777 26HP engine a direct replacement for the 446777 engine and do the electrical plugs match up?

    Is the Kohler engine a better replacement? I don't really wan't to ever use another Briggs engine after this problem especially if they won't honor their design flaw with this engine model

    Thanks,
    Robert

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I would first try to adjust the valve lash on that intake valve and see if the valve is moving properly and the motor is running better ...

    If it were running better i would then re-check your compression - and start thinking about changing the head gasket on the bad side.

    If after the valve adjustment - the valve gear doesnt seem to move like the good side, I would assume the motor will not run well either. I would then start thinking that the cam is the culprit.

    Ive not swapped a cam in this type of engine - but It may be worth the effort (if you are handy). At this point your gonna need a whole gasket set (I would buy that only after Ive had the motor completely torn down - as you may find other bad things going on in the middle of the tear down; and decide to abort the cam replacement.

    Otherwise your gonna have to pay someone else to do it for you.

    Question - did you notice any abnormal shine in the oil - during the oil changes ?

    Good luck - Dave

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Dave,

    Thanks for your comment. I don't think adjusting the valve lash will help since I can push the valve against the camshaft and feel hardly any movement when the engine is running. The intake valve on the other side moves fine. The compression on this side was 120psi, but it does have a blown head gasket since there is oil coming out around the seal. The oil looks normal though.

    As I said before this Briggs engine model had problems with the camshaft so I'm sure this is the culprit. I'm hoping Briggs will fess up and replace it. If not, I think I'll just change out the complete engine with something else since I don't want to keep having problems with it and plus this engine has the bad air filter design. Either way, I think it has to go.

    How hard would it be to change the engine out? I'm worried about the pulley's on the bottom mainly. What type of pulley puller would I need?

    Thanks,
    Robert

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    The pulley shouldn't be more than a single bolt, a splash of WD-40, and a bit of light tapping... That is the least of your worries.

    If the valve gear is not moving with you applying pressure to the pushrod - then it does sound as if the cam is saying goodbye.

    There are some (me being one of them) that say the filter story is a bit of a fairy tale. There probably are some faulty filter housings out there (dont get me wrong) - but I firmly believe they are not the cause of death to the masses of these engines. I think its sub-standard parts - but to what extent who can say (we know cams are questionable, head bolts maybe, etc).

    Yours being a perfect example #1) I doubt a "defective air filter" is the cause of a wasted cam lobe on your machine. #2) I doubt the air filter has caused *only one* of your cylinders to give up the ghost either.

    No my friend; what your looking at is a shoddy parts supply chain, *possibly* coupled with a poor overall engine design? I wonder if the design of the block has changed at all... Anybody know anything about the block design or changes ?

    As you state you think the head gasket is wasted - that could very well be your compression loss problem.

    Im very curious - would you mind commenting on the air filter ? Does it appear to be flimsy, cracked or warped in any way? ( I recall some saying the filter doesn't seat well in the design. )

    I think this motor might be worth fixing - no ? A new cam and head gasket?

    anybody ?

    Im very frugal - (unless Sears is going to step up and fix the problem)... I would tear this motor down and replace the cam and head gasket... If I started to see excessive wear on the questionable cylinder and piston and valve gear - then I would just scrap the repair project and get another engine. .

    Good luck - Dave

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    ***"I doubt a "defective air filter" is the cause of a wasted cam lobe on your machine. #2) I doubt the air filter has caused *only one* of your cylinders to give up the ghost either."***
    I agree with that. When the air filtration is not keeping dust and grit out of the engine, the first components to suffer are the intake valves and piston & rings/cylinder walls. Secondary components to fail would be camshaft lobes, crankshaft rod journals and piston wrist pins. If you don't "see" any visible signs of filter leakage (obvious "dust tracks" or "dust streaks" showing in the areas "past the filter", dirt in the carb throat and intake manifold (some traces of "carbon black" in the intake is OK. Dirt, grit or "sludge" is not OK), about the only way to confirm the presence of inadequate filtration, is by doing "autopsy" to the disassembled engine and components. In an "autopsy", all engine components are measured with precision instruments (micrometers, dial indicators, "plastigage" to name some)and compared to the OEM specifications and/or wear limits. The two "most telling" things to measure when you suspect that air filtration has been "compromised" or "corrupted", are the diameter of the piston "skirt", and the diameter and taper of the cylinder walls. In measuring a piston, you DO NOT measure diameter anywhere in the piston ring area. The measurements are taken across the "skirt". The "skirt" of the piston is the "long, round surface of the piston sides". The skirt is the portion of a piston that actually "supports", or "carries" the side loading of the piston that occurs when the rod journals of the crankshaft are "half way between TDC & BDC" of piston travel. For this reason, the cylinder walls will wear where the skirt "rides" more than other areas. In most engines, you will be able to actually see the "track" where the piston skirt "touches" the cylinder walls. This track is where you want to measure the cylinder to determine how much it has worn. Measure the cylinder walls that are "perpendicular" to the skirt track AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CYLINDER. This point of the cylinder will give the original diameter of the cylinder when the piston was "put into service". Knowing the "new" measurement allows you to subtract that value from the measurement taken in the skirt track of the cylinder. The "remainder" from that computaion represents the amount of wear that has occurred to the cylinder. In measuring a piston, you take the diameter spec for a new piston and subtract the measurement from the worn piston. The remainder from that computation represents the amount of wear that has occurred to the piston. You can then compare all your measurement results to see if the engine would require "over boring" the cylinder to the next appropriate "oversize" of piston. Over boring a cylinder requires an oversize piston. And, you can't use an oversize piston unless you also over bore the cylinder (they only go as a "pair") If the engine features "cast iron" liners, and dirt and grit are getting into the engine, the wear to the cylinder walls will be worse than the wear to the piston. This is because the "softer" aluminum of the piston allows some of the grit to "embed" in it. The embedded grit acts like "emery" and will cut into the cast iron while the piston itself gets "less wear". Aluminum cylinders & pistons will wear about equally. Anyhow, if the cylinder walls and piston skirt exhibit "excessive wear", the wear is most likely due to bad air filtration. So, if you think you might want to "save" this engine by replacing the camshaft (which is obviously worn), you need to perform (or have it done by a "machine shop") an autopsy to determine if the engine is a candidate in the first place, and if unfiltered air was the cause. With today's costs of machine shop operations plus the high relative costs of individual replacement parts, you have to decide whether to save that engine, or replace the engine. If all other parts measure within acceptable specs, a replacement camshaft kit is likely a good way to go (even better if you can DIY). If the pistons and cylinders (even one piston and cylinder) are worn beyond the service limits, a complete new engine makes more sense. BTW, the 120 PSI versus 135 PSI on the "good" cylinder probably reflects the worn cam lobe more than the leaking head gasket.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Yes, I agree it's probably a shoddy part. The lobe on the camshaft is gone on the upper valve and probably was bad to some extent before I bought the tractor. I noticed early on it backfired quite a bit. I have changed the oil every year and have noticed no debris in it. I keep the filter system oiled and a new filter every year too.

    Brigg's has informed me to take it to a qualified dealer and if they decide it's a manufacturing defect they might honor some warranty on it. Somehow I think they'll probably just weasel out of it since it's been 5yrs. If so I'll just rip this engine out and replace it versus repairing it since who knows what else I'll find when tearing it down.

    Thanks,
    Robert

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Well, we will hope for the best, though that might be a miracle. With compression readings of 120 PSI and 135 PSI, the piston, rings, and cylinder walls are probably in good condition. Most likely the valves are too. If Briggs denies any warranty consideration for the camshaft, just buy a camshaft and install it yourself. This way, you will at least have a "running engine" to sell to help pay for your new engine, if you decide not to use it yourself.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    guys - not sure if my last posting worked.

    Thanks for posting this thread and talking through it - it gave me the clues i needed to figure out that I had a camshaft go out on me as well. Absolutely no help from Briggs on their website or customer service. They know they have entire lots of engines that they cut corners on. This part should have NEVER done this on a single camshaft lobe. Oil levels maintained and changed regularly.
    Thanks again guys. Problem fixed, about $100 to cover parts and gaskets. Back in business.
    Peter / Seattle

    Here's three pictures to see the worn camshaft:

    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B68zibl7TJvBZDdkMGU5YjAtZTkzOC00YzA5LWJjMmItZDAyM2RkZGI2MGQ4&hl=en

    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B68zibl7TJvBOTRkM2RlODYtN2Q3Yi00NjQ2LTk0OGEtZTA4ZTI2NThjOTI0&hl=en

    https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B68zibl7TJvBMzA0M2M3MDItZTk2YS00MDZlLWJhYzAtMTU2ZjA3YWI5M2Ew&hl=en

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Yep, that used to be a cam lobe at one time. Just a little bump now.

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