When you're right , you're right!

Your story is 99.9% correct.

The only part that misses the mark a bit, is related to:
"...they can't make money paying American wages. Toyota has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US..."

I agree that GM and FORD mgmt, are completely out to lunch,. but what GM and FORD mgmt. was "really" saying is that: "...they can't make money while dealing with the unions...."

Do some research. You'll find that none of the Jap. plants have union labour. However, Toyota still pays the same wages as GM (their cars are actually more expensive)

Nothing against hard working folks who happen to be members of a union - I have many friends in unions... but the concept of the union, which had every right to exist in the 1930's, is completely obsolete these days - with all the labour legislation protecting the workers there is no need....

In a Toyota plant, if you show up 10 minutes late for work, you're reprimanded. If it happens again, you're fired. In a GM plant if you show up 10 minutes early, you get a grievance against you (because you make everyone else look bad). It's a question of work-place philosophy. Toyota pays the same money and expects performance in return. GM pays the same money and is "not allowed" to expect performance.

Swiss-watch (toyota), vs. a mechanical egg timer (GM).

BTW: I've worked in a GM plant, a Toyota plant and a Honda plant (all 3) in Canada. So I have every right to I say it.

I think Hippy and Wally are both right. On the one hand, there is a difference between the way Toyota and the big three approach building cars. If Toyota had suffered a massive number of transmission failures in their 1989 minivans, they would not have continued to sell the same bad transmissions for more than a decade. There is an arrogance toward the consumer by the American auto companies that borders on hatred; an irrational certainty that the customers will continue to buy the flawed products no matter how many painful experiences they have.

On the other hand, the unions have done much to make it impossible for the big three to compete. In my eight years as a teamster, the union worked very hard to teach us that the company was the enemy, and fought to the death for ever more absurd and unsustainable levels of pay and benefits.

Maybe the threat of mutual destruction will bring the automakers and the union to their senses.

I read an article on executive pay a few weeks ago. I think it was on the average CEO pay for a fortune 100 company though I don't recall for sure.

Anyway, I did the math to calculate the hourly rate based on a 40 hours week and it was something like $4000/hour hour.

Much like certain politicians part of the problem is that those running the company believe they must be right or they would not have the job, so they don't listen to anyone.

Regarding unions. The unions of the 1930s are not necessary. What is needed is 21'st century unions, the teamsters, Service Employees Union and several other have left the AFL/CIO for this very reason. Andy Stern of SEIU is a genius. The new federation is (aptly) named "Change to Win". See www.changetowin.org for more on this.

Also find and read Stern's book for a fascinating analysis of american labor and the role of unions in the 21st century.

The ironic thing is that for the last 30 years Ford and GM have paid consultants a gazillion dollars to implement the Toyota Production System in their own plants. In the latest attempt to do this at my company, management gave us a book to read that basically says that the reason that TPS won't work in a US plant is because manangement is screwed up. I bet none of them read the book.

Executive pay has nothing to do with company performance. The money they make is "noise" compared to what is spent elsewhere - where it matters. What is important, is that the executive in question actually knows what he's doing.... in other words - pay them whatever, but is he/she smart?...
smart = the company will win...
dumb = the company will lose...

Don't get me wrong... GM and FORD mgmt. are slackers. Slacking (in mgmt.) is not tolerated by Toyota mgmt. When I said you get fired for being late - that applies to the janitor, assembly worker, supervisor, HR manager and the president. All of them. Has to do with one of the key rules of leadership: "lead by example"

at GM or at FORD, neither the mgmt. nor the unions lead by a "good" example....

Following WW2, most of the world was more or less bombed out.
But not the USA. Our industry was greatly strengthened by all
the intense war time manufacturing. So car production resumed
in 1946, (pre war designs) and exciting new designs went on the drawing boards. Management and unions alike pigged-out over the
next 15 years because with no foreign competition, the world was their oyster. The big 3 management was concentrated around
the Detroit area. They all lived in Gross Point Woods, etc.
and played golf together. It became a very in-grown clubby group. Many of their engineers were graduates of the General Motors Institute, which was a good school, but again, in-grown.

The 1 union got the same contract with all 3 companies, taking turns which company to strike. It was very routine for management...raise wages, raise prices, and get promoted.

These people lost touch with the world outside of Michigan.
It's still that way. A movie was made about it, "Roger and Me".

Alas I'm surprised that in an American Dominated forum these views have come to be and most people seem to be on Toyotas side (work-ethic wise anyway). I commend you all. If more people (Americans) thought like you the American automotive industrie would not be in the shambles it's in now, and they'd probable make first rate cars and be a competitive force. I for one know full well it's the fat cats to blame, lining their pockets with Gold at the expence of the hard working Engineers and workers. Thats the problem with "the land of opertunity"...Too many "opertunists"
Same sh!t here in Quebec Canada, just smaller scale.

For what it's worth:
When buying a new vehicle, I was always told it was good, if you could get one made in Canada, as the quality would be better. I've had a number of vehicles made in Canada, and have always had good luck with them. If I buy something else, with a "made in Canada" sticker, I feel, it will probably be good. ???

I've seen a number of these parables but they don't really address what's happened in Detroit. The workers at those companies, from the lowest guy cleaning the toilets to the CEO have in effect looted the companies.

Wages and medical beneifits for life and huge executive bonuses look great when things are going good and a company is profitable and growing. But it's too similar to a pyramid scheme to last forever.

Sooner or later someone has to pay the price. And when the customers are no longer willing to do that, the company is in serious trouble...

As far as I'm concerned the best thing that can happen to the big 3 is for one to go out of business. Which one is the question.
Once one goes out it buys a little time for the other two who might be able to steal some of that market away from the others and get the chance to build up soome processes that make sense.
Do I think that'll happen? I dunno.

'Big Three Automakers'? Are you talking about General Motors, Toyota, and Ford?

This is a stupid discussion anyway, trying to compare American-made cars to foregn-made cars. All of these manufacturers have American-made cars that are manufactured in America by American workers:

General Motors
Ford
Daimler-Chrysler
BMW
Navistar
Paccar-DAF
Volvo
Toyota
Nissan
Honda
Fuji-Subaru
Mazda
Mitsubishi
Isuzu
Renault
Suzuki
Peugeot
Hyundai
Kia
Porsche
Lexus
Mini
Smart
Mercedes Benz
Acura
Audi
Infinity
CAMI
Sentigon
Carrena
Island Crusier
Citroen
Fiat
NUMMI
(there are several more American automotive manufacturers, but these are some of the largest ones.)

"This is a stupid discussion anyway, trying to compare American-made cars to foregn-made cars.

Maybe you missed the picture here.

Why does the "Big Three (Ford, GM, Chrysler)" keep laying off workers, shutting down plants, losing billions of dollars a year in profits while say Toyota is building more factories in the US, hiring American workers and making billions in profits?

It can also be applied to just about every manufacture in the US.

Briggs & Stratton and Kohler = Losing out to Honda and Kawasaki.

Harley Davidson = Just pick a Jap bike.
Polaris, Artic Cat, Bombardier/Can AM = Again pick a Jap ATV or PWC.

Why can Ford, GM or any other US company make a profit paying US wages?

The Japs are.

Oh and by the way Wally. You stated, "Do some research. You'll find that none of the Jap. plants have union labour.."
Sorry to inform you. But the Buffalo WV Toyota plant is about 10% union. The other 90 % of employees learned their lesson watching a stamping plant here in Charleston. The plant had a huge contract with Ford and GM making body panels. Both got fed up with not having a reliable source of parts due to stupid strikes by the UAW. One of which lasted for over a month because the Lawn service the company hired to mow and trim the grass was not union. Ford and GM canceled their contracts forcing the place to shut down putting over 600 out of work for they could not get a contract even if they offered to stamp parts for free..
BWM has since bought the building and has spent millions updating it and have since hired 250 on their first round. And not the first employee has a desire to join a union. For the ones that had worked their before have better wages and benefits than what they did when working under the union.

They are thousands of Coal miners here leaving Union jobs to go to work for Non Union mines. For they pay the same wage and have nearly the same benefits. But not having to pay the unions a wad every month. They actually take home more money.

Maybe if the big three were given the free tax ride.Like Toyota and the others were given.That would help change things.Thats the part so many close there eyes to.Or refuse to see.

What the union was trying to do is two-fold.
1. protect workers rights
2. share the wealth.

#1 is obsolete due to governement legislation, protecting the worker.
#2 is a false premise. If you take all the executives with their fat pay, and split all the $$'s and give it all out to the "poor" workers (ie: take from the rich and give to the poor), everyone will get a cheque for $500. Boy - that sure is top-notch sharing the wealth!

Get it out of your head - executive pay has ZERO impact on company profitability!

Do the arithmetic!... take 20 executives with say average 2M in salary (say 10M for the big guy and 1-2M for the smaller guys). That's 40M in cost.
Then take remaining 100,000 employees with 50k (probably more like 75k) average salaries. That's 5,000M. That's 5 billion $$'s of cost!!! there is no comparison!!!!!!!!!!! Even if the salaries of the 100,000 were 20k each... that's 2 Billion!!!! compared to 40M

get a grip fellas!

johndeere, when the big three go outside Detroit to open a new plant the local governments fall all over themselves offering the same tax incentives that Toyota and Honda get. It's a level playing field.

maybe not quite a level playing field. neither toyota nor honda have the legacy expenditures for health care and retirement benefits that the big 3 do. doesn't excuse the past and current greed of both hourly workers and executives that helped to bring down Chrysler, Ford and GM.

i am not now and probably will never be a union member. that being said, let's not forget that unions do more than negotiate wages and benefits. from what friends tell me the union is still necessary to prevent and stop abuse of workers by management. i still see a need for the union, especially in the current economic environment in the USA for manufacturing.

Hmmm i wonder! Do foreign CEO's and high executive types get huge chunks of money and stock to go away when things go bad like some US types do.Rewarding people for do a lousy job does not set a good example and is a waste of money.

1. Unions made america.
2. Crooks and Politicians killed America.
3. People who voted for the Crooks and Politicians killed themselves.
4. All Politicians are Crooks & visa versa.
5. Go dig up Hoffa under the front columns at the Meadowlands in NJ...give him mouth to mouth, resusitate the SOB and you might have all your factories and jobs back here and not in freakin Canada or Japan.
6. Get a grip everyone, it's our own fault for letting this crap happen.
7. BTW---what makes any CEO worthy of a 400 Million Dollar salary!

There are still a few bastions of USA led dominance. Microsoft, Intel, IBM... Most of the high tech has a strong hold in USA. Yes there is plenty of outsourcing, but the majority is still here. We complain about the oil companies making profit, though it pails in comparison to the drug/pharmaceutical companies profit.

Regarding the US car companies. I guess part of the blame sits with the shareholders and their demands. Having been in a large company with a large rudder (DEC) I understand how extremely difficult it is to turn the ship. And under poor management, everyone (employees/shareholders) starts thinking "what can I get out of this sinking ship before it goes under".

Also let's not forget that the Koreans are kicking the Japanese companies hard. I wouldn't count them out...

-gh

1. Unions made america.
FALSE: hard working people made america - unions were there to look after people's rights - at in the 1930's. Today Union management are 100% the same as the crooks that run the company. It's a game. Kind of like the Republicans (company management) and the Democrats (unions). Same crap, different pile.
2. Crooks and Politicians killed America.
TRUE
3. People who voted for the Crooks and Politicians killed themselves.
TRUE: But your choices were: Bush or Gore. Go figure
4. All Politicians are Crooks & visa versa.
TRUE
5. Go dig up Hoffa under the front columns at the Meadowlands in NJ...give him mouth to mouth, resusitate the SOB and you might have all your factories and jobs back here and not in freakin Canada or Japan.
THIS IS BEYOND FALSE. MORE LIKE "LA-LA" LAND
6. Get a grip everyone, it's our own fault for letting this crap happen.
NOT DIRECTLY.
7. BTW---what makes any CEO worthy of a 400 Million Dollar salary!
ANS: The same thing that makes actors and sports-heroes (ie drug addicts and petafiles) also get paid that kind of money. People like you, "are willing to pay" to see them in action.