Shelly - I grow both, here's my experience. Belle de Crecy is floppy, even in its 4th year. I grow it with support (on a short tripod). It's not a tall grower, so I have been reluctant to hard prune it.

Belle Sans Flatterie is more upright, and definitely responds well to hard pruning. I was inspired by David Stone last fall at the Ashdown workshop and whacked mine back and they are still blooming profusely.

George

I do have both gallicas you are talking about. As George mentioned, BSF is more upright. However, I have no issue with any of these two being floppy. I do prune all my gallicas at the end of December (usually between Christmas and New year day). I cut them to self supporting wood, usually it means 1/3 or slightly more of the canes lenght and remove twiggy canes as well. I also prune slightly just after the bloom period to deadhead and make bushes look nice.
Olga

Thanks George and Olga for your info.

George, when do you prune your gallicas?

Olga, did you prune 1/3 off even in the first couple of years? Neither of them are very big...maybe 3' canes, very floppy...and only maybe 3 canes on each. Should I wait to prune until after this summer to see how much growth they put on?

Thanks again, Shelley

Shelly - for the first 2 years I followed the conventional wisdom and pruned right after they bloomed, the theory being that when you prune in the spring you are pruning off all the prior year's growth that would produce blooms. What I found was that even if I pruned back by a 1/3 to a nice shape, by the end of the summer I would still have an overgrown gangly mess.

So last year (again, encouraged by David Stone) I chopped all my once bloomers back in the fall, by as much as half. I took out anything that wasn't self supporting almost back to the ground to encourage stronger basals in the spring. What I have found is that the once bloomers are amazingly resilient, and have put out a bloom quantity no less than in the past. Granted, that may be because they have matured for several years first.

My recommendation to you would be to prune yours after they finish blooming. You will be amazed how much new growth they put on. Next spring, before they break dormancy, you can trim back any out of bounds canes to tidy them up. You can start being more aggressive with pruning after they bloom next year, which would be their third year.

George

Are these grafted or own-root? Or in other words, what are their total ages?

For the first couple of years, a lot of gallicas put out very thin, branched growth that isn't self-supporting. It is necessary to feed the plant, though, and it will produce flowers. However, you know the baby is growing up when it starts producing very different types of basal breaks that shoot pretty much straight up and are quite self supporting. After you get about three or four of those, the creepy-crawlie stuff can be cut out.

I personally prune starting from first winter, no matter own root or grafted. I know this is against conventional wisdom, but works well for me in my climate.
I feel that it is importenat to start pruning early and not wait for year three, but this is just my approach. There is no right and wrong here. Try and see what works for you. I hate floppy canes with flowers in the mad, so I do everything to prevent it.
Olga

George, your pruning ideas sound good. I think I will prune this year after blooming is over and then start more aggressively pruning in the future starting next fall.

Mad Gallica, these are both ownroot plants. Your description as "creepy-crawlie" stuff is exactly right, that's what the canes now look like (though covered in flowers), particularly the Belle de Crecy. I fed them well...MMM to start the spring and a toplayer of manure. Then Bloomkote Time Release (also from the Mills Mix people) a month later. Hopefully I will get those basals you're talking about.

Olga, I also can't stand floppy canes. If early pruning will help to eliminate the problem and build a stronger framework...that sounds good to me. Off the subject of the gallicas but also with a similiar problem...I have an ownroot Abe Darby...planted as a band from Heirloom in 2004. It has only put on some bulk to its canes in the past year but is still under 3 feet high. It is in full sun and had tons of blooms this year for the first time, but was floppy under the weight of the blooms. It's kind of a sprawly, open growth pattern with maybe 5 main canes and not much going on in the middle of the plant. I tried to prune it the David Stone way this spring. I'm hoping to one day have a huge strong Abe Darby like I see in your pics but mine is far from that, even at year four. Any advice for me?

Thank you all for your help. I truly appreciate your time! Shelley

Do you let your Gallicas make thickets? My Charles de Mills is a dense thicket of canes. They aren't floppy, but they also didn't all produce flowers this year. I thought I'd be able to recognize unproductive wood, but the canes all look healthy. Do you remove all canes that didn't flower? And why would anyone grow Charles de Mills after seeing Belle Hermine, which looks as good but smells 10 times better? So many imponderables.

Cass, I love Charles de Mills much more then Belle Hemine (I do grow both). In my garden, and to my nose, CdM is 10 times more fragrant the BH. So this is all very subjective, I guess, but answers the question why people will grow CdM instead of BH :). I prefer to grow Gallicas grafted, they don't make thickets this way, but grow into nice graceful shrubs.
Olga

I've been drinking all this Gallicas talk in. I have bought three own-root bands and am trying to place them in my garden. I have formal beds, and also have a perimeter around my lawn edging the woods that I've planted in a more 'wild' fashion. It recieves a lot of sun there too. Would these be more suitable in the 'wilder' area? They would be able to thicket to their heart's content. I am able to care for them in that area easily too. How far apart should they be planted? (Belle de Crecy, Charles de Mills, and Cardinal de Richelieu.)

Yeah on its own roots, Charles deMills will form quite the thicket. I don't see any way around it. Ours in in a horrible location, so I've never tried remedial pruning on it. It is probably the most floriferous large flowered rose we have, so I'm not real tempted to try remedial pruning. In Charles deMills vs. Belle Hermine we probably see regional differences. Our CDM is certainly fragrant, with a claret color I prefer to the duskier Belle Hermine.

As an aside, in a colder climate than where George or Shelly garden, late summer or fall pruning can be dangerous.

My Tuscany Superb, Belle de Crecy, and unknown white with magenta buds and edges of petals all do well in a thicket, they are in wire circles to protect them from deer so can't flop all that much anyway. But Rosa Mundi in it's 4th year also, has canes 4-5' long that only have leaves on the last 12-18" and has lots of blooms. If I cut it back after blooming it will remove all the leaves. Is that a good idea? I suppose I could do just a few canes.

I looked on helpmefind for Belle Hermine but it didn't come up, so I did an advanced search on Gallicas that are mauve and it says the correct name is Belle Herminie.

Are Belle de Crecy and Cardinal de Richelieu two of the gallicas that tend to sucker a lot, or not as much as some others? I know that Charles de Mills is a very vigorous suckering rose :)

Thanks for the spelling correction. I don't own it, just read someone else's label, obviously not carefully. The scent was...divine. I need it.