FWIW, we heard a talk last month by a man trained in plant pathology.
He had tested almost every brand of potting soil available in our area, and his conclusion was that only one of them was any good. (I think the term for the rest of them was a " . . . bunch of cr*p.")

He said (which we thought, too) that Supersoil was good, until the company sold. Now, it's a " . . . bunch of cr*p."

The only good one was Miracle Gro (with or without additives -- he said it really didn't matter.)

Jeri in Ventura Co., CA

Yeah, I've heard that, but there is something in me that simply cannot believe that Miracle Gro is a good thing. I said in the original post that I could change my ways, but in the intervening second or two I realized that I probably can't. I may, however, have to do more research into the locally available Gardner and Bloome and also contact the local bulk soil supplier to see what they have available.

I know, I know, I know....but prejudices are what they are and I've just got live with mine.

Aha, I knew I had seen a recommendation for the G&B. If Paul Barden thinks it's good enough, I am going to stick with it.

http://paulbarden.blogspot.com/2011/05/121-06-14-impressions-in-year-four.html

I used Gardner & Bloome when I lived near a nursery (a good one) that sold it, and I liked it. I should say, though, that I was just beginning to grow roses. I'm still not very knowledgeable, but have learned a lot from people on this forum. Since I moved to Sacramento, I haven't found G&B anywhere (though it's probably around), but on Berndoodle's recommendation I use Black Gold potting soil. I had used it before for other plants, and it seems to do well for my roses (of which I have only a few, and they are all in pots).
I think your project sounds fascinating! Be sure to keep us posted on the results. I, for one, will be really interested.

Laura

Susan, I would think you could discover the most valuable information by planting four. One with only soil, no food. One with only organic food, as balanced as possible so the results couldn't be blamed on the lack of any particular nutrient. The second with only inorganic and the final with a combination of both organic and inorganic. I would try balancing the NPK ratio as closely as possible so, again, differences between them in performance couldn't be blamed on any insufficiency you could have taken care of.

I know your inorganic is the 14-14-14 and you're never going to find an organic that rich, so try for something like the all purpose 5-5-5 in the organic against the triple 14. With some tweaking, you can discover some interesting results, which, of course, will be most applicable to your specific conditions, but anyone with a similar micro climate could use your results to decide what would give them the performance they desire. Kim

Thanks, Kim. Four it's gonna be, 'cuz that's exactly how many I have. They are callused but some of them still have only very very minimal roots. One of them is marginal already at best. I will label them and start their feeding program tomorrow.

This is going to be very interesting to me. I have never before had duplicates of any roses and never had roses that I was willing to sacrifice to an experiment. I think I will have to start some more cuttings of some other roses for this very purpose -- to be able to test practices on various clones of the very same rose....

Fun.

Susan, thank you! I am SO excited to see you take on this kind of research! THIS is the only way new knowledge is discovered. Your doing it in such an international, public forum will teach us all some very interesting things. By setting it up nearly like a controlled trial, you can circumvent the objections that you didn't do this or that and you can TEACH us all some very interesting things!

I am so excited you're now propagating your own plants. You are now experimenting with feeding regimen, exploring how they react to various types and willing to 'sacrifice' them to whatever occurs. Unless something very odd happens, you're not going to lose any of them. Some will perform a lot better than the others, but they'll all recover from any deficiencies they may experience and you're going to have a field of Cardinal Hume! LOL! Could be worse, a whole lot worse.

Once this trial is over, we'll have to get you testing this type of treatment on some of the Teas and yellow Tea-Noisettes. You can go to Blogspot.com or any other blog publishing site you desire, document your experiment fully with photos and then prove your results. I'd love to see someone with the time, room and energy do this with the Tea and Tea-Noisette types and SHOW what happens when you push them. There really is a very dramatic difference with this practice. Seeing it in high resolution photos will be a tremendous teaching example. Get ready, we have a budding "expert" in our midst! Congratulations and thank you! (BTW, an "expert" is someone who knows one more thing than you do, so don't be offended, please! LOL!)Kim

Okay, Kim, take a breathe and remember that I am the queen of starting and stopping. I will do my best, but follow-through is not my strongest suit. However, if you are willing to help me decide how to proceed, and help me get over myself when I f***up I'll give it my best shot.

Today I picked up a bag of Fox Farm Happy Frog 5-5-5 Organic fertilizer, so tomorrow I can add a Tbsp of the 5-5-5 (organic) to one plant, and a Tbsp of the 14-14-14 (controlled release) to a second plant. The "nothing but potting soil" is easy even for me, and I will probably let the currently strongest start have that position. The fourth one I'm not sure what to do with: some 14-14-14 and some 5-5-5 ? or some 14-14-14 and some fish emulsion? or ??? And should I be adding a layer of compost to any/all of them????

I need some helpful nudging.

Susan

No problem Susan! The neat thing is once you've begun, most of the time you just have to observe. Yes, do the first three as you've said. The fourth will be the Tbsp of both the 5-5-5 and 14-14-14. Perhaps save the fish emulsion for the garden and just keep it simple so the results are more easily compared.

I'll keep nudging and I'm asking anyone else who is following this to help nudge you, too! hehehe Guess that means you should be getting a number of reminder emails, then? Don't worry. I have complete faith that you aren't going to mess up and will only need help getting over yourself when you succeed and observe some really neat, new, interesting discoveries. You might also want to keep track of the average weather and temps as you do it. I know we're supposed to go from the sixties and seventies to the low to mid nineties by this coming Wednesday. I am NOT amused. Kim

All righty then. Once the morning caffeine load has registered with my system I will go out and label and feed the four volunteers, take pictures, and make note of the weather.

Susan

Way cool! Thanks! We're gonna have us some fun! LOL! Kim

Or, alfalfa is 3-1-2, so you would use 5 times as much as of 14-14-14 to get the same level of nitrogen. I would wet the alfalfa and mix the fibers into the potting soil to start it breaking down

I would think you would compare a TB of 5-5-5 with a TSP of 14-14-14 for the same reason. Otherwise you would just be showing that more nitrogen produces more growth, which is kind of a no-brainer. Or if you overdo, you could prove that too much nitrogen burns the foliage.

Thanks for your input, Michael, but we are off and running with this particular trial this particular way. We may not learn anything that you don't know already, and that won't surprise me at all, but I will definitely learn something that I don't know right now, and I will probably be interested in starting/trying yet another trial next/soon.

I'd start another batch immediately, but first I will have to root some more cuttings......:-))))

Susan

Well, here's the story so far. It's been 6 weeks since I potted these four starts up. One in just potting soil. One with an organic 5-5-5. One with a timed release 14-14-14. One with both the 5-5-5 and the 14-14-14.

Any guesses as to what the plants look like so far?

The one with both 5-5-5 and 14-14-14 did better than the rest and the control?
-Jason

Yeah, right, that's what you would expect, right?????

Truth is, if there weren't sticks in them indicating which was which, you wouldn't/couldn't tell one from the other....

So....what do you/I/we think THAT means? Maybe the potting soil is so good that the extras haven't been called upon yet????

I dunno. I mean, it's cool that they are all doing well, but.....?????

Susan

The important part, at that stage, is how much ROOT have they grown.
Don't look at the TOP.
Look at the BOTTOM of the pot, and see which ones have more root growth.

Jeri

Thanks for the update Susan. I'm glad you're keeping on top of it. I'd bet the soil had what they need right now. Wait until the weather stabilizes, not too hot or cold, sufficient air moisture, etc. and they mature a bit to make good use of what they have. They're still "babies" and will need to develop some roots to support the tops. Cardinal Hume is a shrub, but he wants feet before he grows.

I'm still betting you're going to see the most dramatic results from the inorganic, then the mixed with the organic taking the third position. The inorganic is fastest acting, being immediately available for use. The mix will actually become a stronger blend, higher in all the nutrients. The organic will require time for the soil bacteria, of which there aren't many in the potting soil, so you have to wait for them to find their way and proliferate. Once they populate the pot and begin digesting the organics, that pot will have the lowest guaranteed analysis of NPK. It's just like cooking and baking, chemistry. Kim

Good tips from both of you.

Jeri, today I will go back out and see if I can get a look at what is or isn't happening with the roots. Of course unless they are actually poking out of the bottom of the pots, I probably won't know how their root growth differs, but...I'll see what I can see.

Kim (and anybody else who would know), should I be applying anything else to these kids? The 14-14-14 is controlled release so I assume not, but the 5-5-5 is not and so I wonder if the comparison is most valid if that gets re-applied or.....????

And then I will resume my watchful waiting and report if/as/when any differences emerge....

Susan

Susan, I would apply all the products per label directions to avoid skewing the results unrealistically. Once you know what each will do in your climate with your soil and watering culture, you can more easily tailor the process and products to achieve the desired results. I understand the attraction to time released but have never felt it provided enough punch for my desires. In pots, it can be really dangerous because the higher soil temperatures in pots easily causes it to release a whole lot faster, potentially allowing for burning and definitely requiring more frequent application. All of that depends upon your climate, micro climate where they pot sits, type of pot, etc.

So, no ma'am, I would only apply the products per their directions so they can be replicated elsewhere easily. I believe those results would be far more reliable. Kim

Read the directions?
Me?
What a concept.....
LOL

Well, I can't address THAT, but it's like when my mom taught the three of us to cook when we were little. She said to follow the directions to get the idea and learn the principles, then, with practice, branch out, experiment, test ideas to find new recipes and create new ideas. We read daily "how much?", "what do I do with it?", etc., and 99.9% of the time, it is right there on the package.

Once you see what doing what THEY say to do, does in YOUR garden, you can experiment with what you're using to create the type of results you're looking for. Kim

Oh, all right. Off I go to find the labels. After all, that's why my dad said he sent me to college....:-))))

Susan

So, the Happy Frog 5-5-5 is called a "slow release" fertilizer and the directions say to apply it monthly. Therefore I will apply more to the two plants that are currently being fed with that.

The Florikote 14-14-14 is a "controlled release" fertilizer and says it works for 90 days. So....no more food for those guys for .... another 45 days.

Susan

The Happy Frog is organic, hence "slow release". It will work faster in moist, warm soil where the bacteria are much more active and digest it faster. The Florikote is inorganic. Unfortunately, it's controlled release, harder to burn the plant due to the timed release, but faster acting because it is the salt form of the nutrients so it's available for absorption NOW. An interesting comparison would be adding a pot with something like Miracle Grow All Purpose which would be applied every two weeks, then one with both Happy Frog AND Miracle Grow applied at their rates and frequencies. The Happy Frog and Miracle Grow would provide the fastest, most dramatic results of the four. I still expect the Florikote to be the most dramatic in the first season and perhaps beyond. Kim

I'm sorry, we all have our prejudices, and mine against Miracle Grow has not yet been declared illegal, so....I'm keeping it.

I feel about Miracle Grow the way you feel about Canola Oil:
NIMBY.

Susan

That's fine, no problem. Fortunately, roses can't read! Kim

Update on these starts.
Today I belatedly added some of the Frog Hollow 5-5-5 to #2 and #4. They should have gotten it a few weeks ago, but....such is life at my house. Anyway, here is what is evident so far:

All four roses are about the same size (approx 6" X 6"), but only the three that have been fertilized are showing new basal growth.

All three of the fertilized roses have obvious new red growth happening, but the #2 rose (which has gotten only 5-5-5 fed to it) has the very most vigorous and abundant new growth both at the top and at the soil line.

That's it for now.
More next time...

Lo and behold, one of the four has a cluster of four buds on it.

Any guesses which one?

The one which was initially closest to the flowering end of the original cane. It contained more of the necessary nutrients to produce flowers.

Based on what I've seen here for many years, the inorganic fertilizer. Kim

Sheesh, Kim, I have no idea which end of which cane was which, so that might well be exactly right.

And, by "the inorganic fertilizer" you mean the one that got ONLY the inorganic? the 14-14-14 or the one that got both the organic (5-5-5) and the inorganic (14-14-14)???

Come on....
Lay your money down.....:-))))

Susan

The one responding faster got more nutrients. Your climate isn't as hot as some so the organic shouldn't have provided as high nutrient levels as the inorganic, even in warmer pots. Roses are gross feeders. They will make use of any and all nutrients up to the point their levels become toxic. The only logical answer would be the pot which provided the highest, non toxic levels of nutrients. It could well be the one which got both. That is my experience here in much higher heat. I didn't remember which combinations you'd tried and I was too lazy to go back and read before responding. There shouldn't be anything in the combination pot to inhibit performance, unless reduced amounts of inorganic were included. In that case, I would have to vote for the pot containing the highest levels (presuming they didn't approach toxic levels, and all other variables remainded equal and constant between the pots)of Florikote, inorganic fertilizer. How's that for qualifying my answer?! LOL! Kim

Good answer, but guess what:

the only one which has flower buds is the one with NO additional fertilizer at all....

howzat????
ain't life grand?????

Then, I would offer that was the closest to the terminal cutting from the cane you took your cuttings from. Next, take cuttings of whatever rose you want, all from the same cane. Leave the flower spray wood on the end cutting and watch which flowers first of the group. Kim

I'll bet you are right, but don't hold your breath waiting for "the next one". Growing from cuttings isn't my idea of fun. I'd rather let someone else do the hard part (which it is for me) and pay for a band. And anyway, I'm a one-of-each sort of person. Having more than one of any one rose is a waste of space (for me). I want lots and lots of roses and I want them all to be different. Duplicates just need new homes...

Still, I will definitely keep you posted on how these guys continue to progress.

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