Here is a PDF of the Bayer Disease Control MDS Sheet (Material Safety Data Sheet)

http://www.bayeradvanced.com/media/msdssheet/DiseaseControlForRosesFlowersShrubs.pdf

Hey pete41! I love Banner Maxx! a little pricey though, Mancozeb is great too for blackspot:) leaves a yucky yellowy film on leaves but does retard BS.

Betty Boop

We need to find someway to keep people from coming on here and preaching against the use of very valuable products simply because the use bothers them.Either back up your charges or have the decency not to make them.It's not really fair to use paranoid knee jerk reactions to discourage others from availing themselves of useful products.

Pete,

I hear your annoyance and I feel you. Try not to forget that there are parts of this huge country where people can get away with not using the heavy guns in order to grow semi-normal looking rose bushes. We Floridians and high humidity area folks don't fall in that category.

I sometimes cringe at the thought that I might be doing more damage than good by killing off critters in my yard, but then I note that my yard is a meca for frogs, toads, lizards, and birds where my neighbors with there designer copy-cat yards with tacky tropical fauna have little to no eco-systems in their yards and I'm comforted that my spray programs don't do much harm.

Just remember that opinions are like @$$****s, everyone has one, but most shouldn't garner much attention. The nice thing is when someone suggests something that ends up being exactly what you needed to address your problem. For that I keep coming on this.

Cheer up, it's only 95 degrees with 100% humidity outside ;')

Adrian.

I love Banner Maxx but I have to use it very carefully because I have a fish pond nearby. I attach (first time hope this will work) an application label link I saved they list aquatic caution and killing other insects (good bugs and bad bugs ?) but I donÂt like most insects anyway.
Tracy

Here is a link that might be useful: banner maxx

I went on the Rosemania website, and they have links to some of the product labels. I didn't check them all, but the ones I looked at stated that they were hazardous to humans and domestic animals, which most of us already know. They all listed toxicity to fish, some to other aquatic organisms, and one included estuarine invertebrates. Orthene is toxic to birds.

They all make it clear that none of the product should enter water or be applied where run off could result. I know I won't personally use any products that are for in ground use, either as a drench or powder, because I don't want the stuff going through the sand into my well. The sprays usually stay in the vicinity of the plant, but depending on the chemical, can do some harm too.

I think we'll have to contact the manufacturers directly to find out if, and how long it takes for the products to break down, and then what they break down into, to determine exactly how harmful they are to the environment.

I do know that the EPA allows a certain amount of toxicity to the environment before making a cut-off amount. (We could probably really get into a free for all here debating that issue). Any agency can also be vulnerable to corruption, so I don't put blind trust into any of them.

One product I would like to get to the nitty gritty of is Round Up. I don't remember where I read it, but I did read that there is concern in the Everglades about alligators having reproductive problems. They supposedly found whatever the active ingredient in Round Up is in the waters there.

I think the best we can do is research it out, starting with demanding the written data from the manufacturers. They've all had to do testing and submit mounds of paperwork to the EPA. Then, we can all decide which products to use and how often.

Some of the organic methods are not always good for the environment either. Garlic is toxic to many beneficial insects, as well as the bad.

Sandy

Pete, The best way to deal w/ people that may disagree on any subject w/ you is to keep your sense of humor. Don't let anybody get you down. I know you are a witty guy, use your wit man!
You are gifted in this department, hey, besides getting your point across you will sound sexy & classy & cool at the same time!

I think anybody should be allowed to view their opinions on this forum...minus PMS'ing women or crotchety old men they should be given time outs...

Betty

Not only is every product rejected, but our methods are questioned. I use fungicides on my roses. I don't go out in a hazmat suit and nuke my entire yard.

I saw a show on how florist roses were grown. It was in a computer controlled greenhouse and the man did go around in a hazmat suit with respirator and a stream spray and misted the entire greenhouse. I have a feeling that's how some posters here view people who spray.

But, there are plenty of REAL roses growers here who don't spray that I respect. And I know they respect others choices.

I am also becomming suspicious that certain posters only show up on thread relating to these issues. I never see them on Rose Id thread or other non-chemical issue thread.

I agree with Adrian's comment completely. Lizards, spiders, SNAKES and all sorts of critters hang out in my roses. If I didn't spray I would not have any leaves, like the rest of the folks on my street who have naked thorny canes decorating either side of their driveways.

I am also becoming suspicious that certain posters show up on threads relating to organic control methods when they are deeply hostile to organic methods, and committed to using pesticides. Catch my drift?

For buford only regarding "I am becomming suspicious that certain posters only show up on thread relating to these issues"...

So what? Maybe Pete's thread is intriguing & people want to post. You will have more posters on interesting subjects than boring hum-drum posts. Pete's happens to be exciting.

Just for the record buford, in case you wondered, I am not a troll. If you go back I am on many posts relating to other subjects on roses. Not just the unmentionable one from the previous couple of days. But that's not the point, weather or not you see people posting on other issues is not doesn't hold any importance. People are allowed to post on one or as many posts as their little hearts desire.

We are all of us welcomed on this site. Weather people agree or disagree, this is a free site, opened to all folks.

This thought forum where we share ideas & our love of roses. This forum is not an old boys club, it is a free forum w/ many differing opinions.

I did not post as much previously cuz' I was shy. Not any more.

I'm planning on sticking around:)

Betty

The whole key is to use them all the way we are supposed to. I don't think anyone actually LIKES the chore of spraying. Some roses need help with various fungus diseases and I don't see anything wrong with giving it to them when needed. I only keep the disease resistant roses so that they can withstand my sporadic spray schedule and still look good. There are even some hybrid teas that do very well down here for me despite that, and they are attractive bushes, with most all their leaves. Blackspot hasn't been an issue this year for me so I am lucky. Other years it is bad and I have to keep up with spraying more.

When I spray I cover up my bird baths, remove the bird feeders until the next day, make sure there is little to no wind, and if any neighbors are in their screenhouse or have a pet nearby, I let them know I will be spraying.

I have lots of life teeming in my yard and I haven't seen any one-eyed lizards yet.

Still, I'd like to know how quickly Banner Max, Compass, and Manzate break down, and into what compounds, so I am going to research it.

I am very environmentally aware, am extremely interested in not harming my own behind, (that's why I suit up), but still want to grow nice plants. I guess what I do is what they call "integrated" pest management. I use far, far less chemicals than most of my neighbors who have so-called "professionals" taking care of their yards. My yard looks superior, and I keep getting asked who I have hired so they can call them. I tell them they are looking at her and they always look disappointed and mutter "I was afraid of that".

It's all a matter of balance.

Hey, I think it's Miller time! I'll check back in tomorrow. There might be more entertainment by then.

Sandy

I agree w/ sandy808, I am finding really difficult to trudge my sprayers around and stay on the spraying schedules for BS.

Last year I bought 2 patio roses, $30.00 each, they were miniature rose standards. They were the biggest BS magnets I've ever seen. No matter what I tried or sprayed nothing worked. They were covered w/ yellow & black spotted leaves. I eventually chucked them over the deck & out to the compost heap they went.

Are roses worth all this hassle? I'm really starting to question.

Betty

Yes Betty, they're worth it. We just have to keep hunting until we find the right ones. It'll get there. I finally have some of "the right" ones, and they are truly a pleasure to look at from my kitchen window. In my case, it is mostly the old garden roses. Pick the brains of your local rose society people - the ones who have been growing roses for awhile.

Uh Oh! My husband is looking for me. It's supposed to be Miller time. I'd better go!

See you guys tomorrow.

Sandy

Banner Max = Propiconazole

From Cornell Univ:

"animals rapidly metabolize propiconazole."
"Propiconazole does not appear to have any adverse effects on soil microbes"
"Propiconazole may leach to a max. depth of 8-10 inches. Therefore, leaching into underground water supplies is unlikely."
"If Propiconazole enters a natural pond situation (it) should undergo rapid photodegradation."

Good overview for Banner Max.
Hope this helps,
Michael

Here is a link that might be useful: Propiconazole - Cornell Study

No Willy-Billy,I am not hostile to ``organic methods'' when they work.I have mentioned many times that I love my lizards and prefer to let them handle bug patrol.
What annoys me are those that can not produce any proof that something is in fact dangerous or harmful to the environment but attack the product out of ignorance.
That is a troll.We don't need trolls,what we need is common sense,which is something the Chicken Little crowd is noticeably lacking in.
Cute pun by the way-I got your drift.

I wasn't speaking about you, betty. Don't PMS on me :)

william, OK, what other threads have you posted on? What kind of roses do you have and how many? What vendors do you use? Do you prefer bare root or potted? Graft or own root. I can probably tell this about most of the posters here on the rose forums because that is what we post about. I'm sure someone can tell you about my roses simply from my many posts. You can go an look at how many non-chemical/organic threads I post on. Believe me, I spend way too much time here and also on other forums that interest me.

I've learned a lot about rose growing here, and I wish I had found it before I started growing roses 6 years ago. I don't want to see this become a place where people are dissuaded from growing roses because if they want to use safe legal products they will be chastised that they are giving themselves cancer or are destroying the environment.

As Sandy said, I have a lot of things I'd like to be doing early on a weekend morning than dragging around a sprayer. I've cut it down to every 3-4 weeks, you can come here and look at my calendar where I mark it down. But it's worth it. I have people who travel miles to come to my house to see the roses in bloom. I'm proud of that.

Thank you buford, I got paranoid for a minute & started PMS'ing.

Question, BS is getting an upper hand in my garden (probably because I'm spending too much time here w/ you all) What do you consider the best product to tame BS when it gets out of hand?

Here is what I have in my shelf: Mancozeb, Orthenex,(I'm thrips free right now) & Banner Maxx.

Is there something else I should try?

As far as placement of roses go, they are all in well ventilated areas, I hand pick BS'd leaves but what else can I do?

Betty

Pete though I agree with you that people shouldn't make blanket inflammatory statements w/out information to back it up, I think both sides of the issue are important. People should be able to make up their own minds. I probably lean closer to your way of thinking, but I do appreciate hearing about alternatives. Perhaps they don't work. Perhaps they will for some. I just think both sides can co-exist w/out anyone getting condescending or preachy (not saying you are the one doing the latter).

I also hope we can continue these discussions without hearing any more about or Betty's cleavage or menstrual cycle. =P lol

~MH

One can do a Google search and find evidence of environmental toxicity of propiconazole, the active ingredient in Banner Maxx. It also accumulates in sediment in water bodies, where it can build up and cause future problems to the environment. Therefore, it is prudent in my view to limit use of this chemical.

See:

http://www.pmra-arla.gc.ca/english/pdf/reg/reg2000-06-e.pdf

"4.0 Fate and behaviour in the environment
In view of the proposed antisapstain use for propiconazole, and its expected leaching from treated wood and movement in stormwater runoff, the environmental risk assessment of propiconazole was limited to aquatic ecosystems. Propiconazole is resistant to hydrolysis and to phototransformation. Propiconazole is moderately persistent in aerobic environments and persistent in anaerobic environments. Although propiconazole
is water soluble, the compound will partition readily into sediment, where it is expected to persist and accumulate under anaerobic conditions.
In terms of acute toxicity, propiconazole is moderately toxic to fish (lethal concentration 50% [LC50] = 1Â10 mg/L) and moderately to highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates
(LC50 = 0.10Â1.0 mg/L). Chronic exposure to propiconazole causes reproductive toxicity in freshwater and marine aquatic invertebrates and in fish. Propiconazole is also toxic to algae and diatoms."

MH,

Ooooooh, low blow, or is it a high blow? Either way, you'd never reach, I'm 5'9", way to high for you...

Jealous?

Betty

It's a JOKE Betty. Calm down.

I know sweetie, I realized after I posted but you beat me to it. Sorry:(

I'm going out there to pick some dead BS leaves right now.

Hugs to you:)

Betty

Pete's request was: "If anyone can produce a study by a reputable,recognized agency showing products such as Bayer Advanced Garden Disease control or Banner Maxx is harmful to the environment please do so."

The only response that even attempts to provide Pete with what he asked for is from CurlyDoc.

However, PMRA's (a Canadian federal agency) assessment does not conclude that the active ingredient in BannerMax is harmful for the environment. Read carefully, its conclusion is that "it is expected" that 2 negative effective would occcur after use.

Readers can fairly interpret that "expected" as synonomous with "not demonstrated." A scientific expectation can be considered speculation or an inference or a prediction.

But what Pete asked for was a scientific report that concluded that these two named products had been demonstrated to harm the environment.

Since I am downright smitten with the results of Bayer Advanced Disease Control for Roses, Flowers, and Shrubs, I too would be interested in a scientific report that concludes that this product is harmful to the environment.

I don't want to discount reports done by the scientists of other countries, but at the same time I don't have a clear picture of how poltically biased such reports might be.

Scientific "expectations" turn out to be overstated, understated, or completely wrong all the time. That much I do know.

Hello Buford, I see we're not doing a terribly good job of ignoring each other, are we? ;-)

As long as we're talking, I'd really like the chance for us to "start over". I'm not really enjoying the unfriendly tone that's pervaded our discussions, and if we can try to repair that I'm more than willing.

My time is really pressed this morning so forgive short answers. I have a great number of roses, from very elderly to young things still in pots. Most are either antiques, near-antiques, or modern "reproductions".

I strongly prefer "own root", all the roses I've planted in the past 5 years have been own root and in containers or propagated from cuttings or by layering. EDIT: Not entirely true as I do have a couple Austins which were "grafted".

I have no experience with bareroots, as most have tended to be "grafted" and HTs (which, except for a number of "legasy" roses on my property) I don't grow.

I have read with interest (your posts included) of the J&P "own root/bareroot" roses. I have a new bed prepped for fall planting that is very likely going to include some "own root/bareroot" Austins. The lack of own root Austins has meant his roses have been underrepresented in my garden. Your photos of "Teasing Georgia" have me very tempted to order this (among others) from J&P come planting time.

This years Ashdown experiment was sold out so fast I missed out trying these.

Most of my mail order roses have come from Vintage Gardens, the now defunct (and missed) Uncommon Rose, Rogue Valley, ARE, and Heirloom. I've also gotten quite a few from San Marcos Growers, a somewhat "unknown" source for a select group of antiques on their "own roots" in 5 gallon containers which I order and pick up at a local nursery.

I have no desire to disuade people from growing roses either. I just hope that people consider the effects of pesticides on the natural environment and at least try to reduce the need for such measures through sound horticultural practices, and by at least considering whether there might be safer ways of reaching the goal of having a beautiful rose-garden.

Here's to a better future,

Bill

gelee-- a scientific report is "politically biased" if it contradicts my prejudices.

michaelg--
Now isn't that the truth!

TeeHee.

Kate

Michaelg--Nonsense. Scientific reports that conclude that water boils at 212 degrees fahrenheit at sea level are not politically biased. I hope that example demonstrates that some scientific reports are quite reliable.

By my lights your position, unless made in jest, makes science itself impossible and dissolves reality into a chaos of subjectivity. On the contrary, it is possible to obtain knowledge via the good old scientific method.

What would be helpful to me would be a scientific report that demonstrates that Bayer or BannerMax are harmful to the environment. So far as I know, no such report exists. I read Pete's initial post making the same point and requesting anyone who knows of one to mention it, post a link, etc. so it could be scrutinized for faulty or downright brilliant methodology.

Brilliant, reliable, unbiased reports exist on a host of scientific subjects, after all...

Hmmm, I'm having problems with BS, rust, powdery mildew, I'm so frustrated I'm at my wit's end. After a wonderful start, I actually felt like I finally pruned my roses (for the most part) the correct way for the first time. They are all in pots except for one because gophers were eating them. I have 2 curious dogs and I'm always trying to be careful when I treat anything; even one of my dahlia plants is showing signs of powdery mildew; it's a conspiracy this year, rain, then too cold, too hot, too windy, sigh. I was going to ask for some suggestions, but I'm a bit concerned that I might step in something, lolol! Shall I come back when things have calmed down? ;-)

Me thinks Michael G.was lightening the mood.Old friends said a few things in the heat of the moment that really weren't positive.
What I want to know if that remark was original-if so it was a true classic.I laughed all day at how true it was.

Hi Pete,

Could you please drop me an email..I need to ask you some questions about the Bayers and I dont wanna start another riot.

Thanks

mari

betty, I swear by Bayer Advanced Disease Control. It's a systematic that controls black spot, powdery mildew, rust and other diseases. I have about 70 roses and about 2 oz in 2 gallons does the job. I just bought an electric sprayer that does a fine mist so it also cuts down the amount of solution needed. Also, you only need to spray every 3-4 weeks as opposed to every week or every other week with other fungicides. And it not only prevents blackspot, but will stop it from spreading once you have it.

I stopped spraying in September of last year. But the weather stayed so warm, my roses did not lose their leaves. All of them with the exception of 2-3 had bad blackspot. That's when I realized what a great job the Bayer does.

William, thanks. I agree that we should start over and discuss roses!

If you are sold on own root and want own root Austins, try J&P. I did get grafted roses from Austin direct (Tyler Texas) but the J&P own roots were actually larger than the grafts. All are doing great, I did loose one, but it's being replaced.

The thing about bare roots is to soak them in water for at least a few days before planting. It greatly improves their chance of success.

gelee--

To paraphrase an earlier post, what michaelg said was a JOKE. Calm down.

Of course, it was the best kind of joke since it also made a point about human prejudices. It's called the human race laughing at its own shortcomings.

Kate

By gelee:
"Since I am downright smitten with the results of Bayer Advanced Disease Control for Roses, Flowers, and Shrubs"

Me too.

gategoddess, I have a lot of powdery mildew as well. The conventional wisdom is that it is increased by lack of rain washing the spores off the foliage. I have it the worst on my crazy dasies. They look grey and moldy.

I have bought a product called wilt-pruf. It's a pine derivative that you coat the leaves with. It's supposed to help with PM, BS and it even keep leaves from losing moisture during dry conditions and preventing cold damage in frosts.

Have a good weekend everyone...I'm going camping.

Before I head off to commune with nature, I leave you with a few words of wisdom from our former Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld:

As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

Cheerio,

Bill

LOL. YouÂre such a hoot Bill!

Sorry Pete, I have nothing to contribute but a good laugh, hope it will be contagious :)

Well I would use chemicals before I would give up my roses...I am not as smart as many of you..but it concerns me that the bees are disappearing

I'm really having a hard time understanding why nobody noticed and jumped on the really exciting factoid buried in these posts....RoundUp causes reproductive problems for alligators? Wowza! So why is nobody spraying the Everglades? (ducking under my computer desk here, LOL)

Betty, I have PMS this morning but not much cleavage.

Back to regularly scheduled programming....

I donÂt think you will likely find any substantial report good or bad on new pesticides just be patient and give it some time. In sevin case it takes decades before we realize itÂs bad for bees when itÂs sprayed on the flowers. Who would have thought back then?
Love my bees
BB

I've had good results using the Cornell Formula. (A combination of hortic. oil and baking soda.)It's organic and perfect for my cite which has fog until 10AM every morning. I add Merit (Beyer) for the JB's In Aug.The active ingredient in Merit is the same stuff that you use to control fleas on your dogs. I have 2 Coonhounds

I have been growing roses for over 20 years and have over 100 rose bushes.

I am too lazy to spray...does that make me "green"

LOL

Ronda

You can wear your laziness with pride! I've been too busy to spray, plus I'm conserving water because of the drought. So I too feel very smug.

Buford - can you mix the Wilf-Pruf in with the Bayer or does it have to be applied separately? How often do you apply?

I don't know, I've never tried it. I would think you should apply the Bayer first, since the wiltpruf will put a coating on the leaves that will prevent absorbtion of anything else.

Yup..down here in blackspot central..FLA in the fall ;)
I have 3 roses which I grow in containers on my 2nd floor apartment patio.

Last year--not much action on the disease of any sort front, but this year--holey quaca-moley!

Initally, tried things like Rose Pride & Orthonex, which didn't appear to do much. Seemed like those products were more of stop-gap solution, for I still had leaf drop & distressed looking plants.

So, started the hunt for something else...and ended up in the Organic Rose forum. Here is what I culled as a solution:

Blackspot spray #1 for 22 oz. bottle recipe

**This spray should only be used in the morning or early evening, when it's cool and there's no direct light on the plant--it's the oil in it that will cause some sunburn of leaves.**

1.5 teaspoon of white vinegar
0.25 teaspoon of Response (seaweed liquid concentrate)
1 teaspoon of canola oil
8 drops of dish soap
balance filled with water
**************************
and notes on the results--

SprayedÂ11/15/07

11/16:
angel face--no more leaf drop on seriously infected plant
europeanaÂno more yellowed leaves
bronze starÂstopped spread, no more yellowed leaves

11/18--sprayed:
europeana only--few more leaves dropped, spread stopped
others are holding steady, angle face continues to bloom as does bronze star

11/22--sprayed:
europeanaÂstill looking scraggly, but new growth is noted,
flowers quite small (considering repotting w/new soil)

angel faceÂvery few yellow leaves, leaf drop has reached equilibrium, new growth noted and continues to bloom, trimmed some dead & yellowing branches

bronze starÂincrease in bs on leaves w/little leaf drop, pruned out middle of plant & opened it up. trimmed off infected leaves

12/1Âsprayed response & montyÂs joy juice, no vinegar spray needed

blackspot appears to be gone..now plants need nutritional support, for all are sprouting new leaves & branches.

europeanaÂimproved bloom size, so guessing it was the stress of blackspot that affected it. Much new growth of leaves, branches & flowers. I love this tough little girl!

angel faceÂmuch new leaf growth and branches. basal break...woohoo!

bronze starÂalso much new leaf growth and branches
***********************

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Rose Forum--Vinegar for Blackspot thread

i'm sure the epa would yank it from the market if there was. I'm more curious if there has ever been any studies as to how effective these products are or aren't. I would think if anything really worked, it would just be taken for granted what actually did work, and therefore be no arguments.

Just go ahead and use a combination of Mancozeb (contact BS control) and Banner Maxx (BS preventative). Been using them for years on my HTs (which is almost all I grow for Roses)and, if I spray every two/three weeks, all is well.
Bill

To start off, I grow a little bit of everything. I also exhibit, so I want my foliage looking good. During the summer (mid May- mid Oct) I use Mancozeb and Banner Maxx and every third spray instead of Banner Maxx I use Ortho's Rose Pride so the blackspot fungus' don't get immune to anything. During the cool weather (HA!) I use Mancozeb and Banner Maxx one week and Kocide 2000 and Ortho's Rose Pride the following week to keep mildew away. Has worked like a charm for me for a long time (at least 20 yrs).