Honda is probably king, but any high end version of named brand engines is pretty reliable. B&S Vanguards for instance, , but then again Honda (to it's credit) doesn't make a cheapo version of it's engines so it's hard to compare. Kohler's have had their problems of late, hopefully they have gotten those fixed.

Kawasaki liquid-cooled engines are by far the longest lasting I've seen. They are extremely well built engines. One of the last to still have copper upper and lower crank bearings. I've seen them go 4,000+ commercial use hours. The Hondas are good, but there really are not many out there to judge by. The same goes for the Subaru and Generac engines. There just are not too many running L&G equipment so it's an unfair comparison. An engine could run forever running a genset.

As has been said, every company makes a good engine these days if you look to their top of the line offerings. The funny thing is that they all are rated at 1,500 hours of life, regardless of brand. Depending on the owner and how they are serviced, some last longer than that, some not so long.

The old classic engines like the Kohler cast-iron singles and Onans were good for their day, but will not last nearly as long as the new engines. Especially in how long before a rebuild. They had a toughness about them, but they also rarely made it past 1,500 hours regardless of how well you treated them. Obviously there are exceptions to everything.

Wisconsin, yes i agree to they are good, company i worked for had a air compresor built somewhere around the early 60's witha wisconsin on it, and its still going and has never been apart.
Then again, back around the early 80's i bought a homelight brush cutter/trimmer, straight shaft model witha Kawasaki engine on it, its been used a LOT, probably as much as any commercial model would have, and it has only ever had a spark plug change. Darn good engine to say the least.
I had a new LT with a Kohler 15 hp single on it, 90's vintage, and it was near impossibe to get it started with temps were low, 20 degrees and lower. Myabe it was just this one engine, but i hated it. My old 70-80's briggs starts cold a lot better. Not perfect, but better

"The Honda's probably have the best reputation of any,"

"but then again Honda (to it's credit) doesn't make a cheapo version of it's engines so it's hard to compare."

I have seen the inside of Honda Engines that were hard to tell from B&S, I think they DO make a lower line.

Walt Conner

I had a Honda lawnmower--it was great when new. The Achilles heel was the carburetor bowl. The slightest amount of grunge/rust in the bowl and the engine would not run worth spit. They are good engines but I view them with a certain amount of suspicion.

B & S is more of a sure bet. Keep the oil changed and fresh gas in one and they are close to eternal!

I am still a sucker for the Kohler Command however. Just a great engine if you maintain it as you should.

I've only had two small-engine mechanical failures in my life.

1. A 3HP B&S on a Mini-Bike I had. It was so worn out, it was run on pure STP Oil Treatment. It ran for an entire summer like that before finally locking up.

2. A Tecumseh 6HP or so on an Ariens Lawn Mower I turned into a sort-of go-cart. I had disabled the governer, and if I over-did it the Camshaft would snap. They were about $5 each, and took 10 min to install. I went through a few of them :)

So, the only two failures I have had were pretty well abused.

I don't include carburetor clogs in this. Those are just a fact of life with ALL small engines.

-Larry

I have 3.
Wisconsin-Robin, Kohler, Tecumseh.
I had an old tecumseh lav on a 19 inch toro whirlwind. The kind with the "S" shaped blade. Ran forever and cranked up in rpm's really good. Had an oil reservoir with a push button. Carburetor finally wore out and the air cleaner broke. Wisconsin's were definately over-built. Kohler's were cast iron everywhere in the old single lunger lawn tractor's. I doubt my $1500 25hp twin kohler in my jd tractor has any cast iron.
Best engines for abuse were definately the o.m.c. lawn-boys. People putting straight gas through them would lock them up. I'd pull the plug, knock on the piston with a wooden dowel to break it loose then send them on their way until they did it again.
Overall performer I vote for the snow-king tecumseh. Keep the carb clean and they run forever.

Briggs opposed twins could be tough. Ours (a 1984, 16 hp) had stelite valves, cast iron sleaves.

It run until 1999 mowing 2.5 acres, and carrying my wifes gardening stuff. It had to be well over 2,000 hours. That shows how well an engine can last with an oil change every 3 or 4 years (and no filter). I replaced the hose to the fuel pump and fixed the oil smell. It did need the left exhaust valve adjusted (clearance had went to zero) at that time also.

The new tractor had a tecumseh enduro 17 hp single. About 400 hours, the compression release cam broke, makeing starting a bear.

I bought my daughter a mower (same one, like my wifes), That tecumseh enduro blew at 75 hours. I think it also broke the compression release cam with pieces jamming some shafts.

JerryO

Depends if you are talking about gas or diesel.

I have a Kohler K301 12 hp that is heavy, tough, and just keeps chugging along. Got it in 1986. This year I finally replaced the exhaust valve and seat. Simple carb, simple electronics, super reliable.

Actually the Kubota gas engines are the best engines made but they seem to only sell them with Kubota-branded products like generators or water pumps. Otherwise they are hard to find. And they are expensive.

I agree with the OP: I think the Robin-Subaru EX series are the best "generally available" gas engines out there for 10 horsepower and under. They are overhead cam engines driven by a timing chain. Very easy to start, powerful, quieter than just about anything, sips gas, and low air pollution. They are a true industrial duty engine. They also have a long service interval, 100 hours between oil changes.

I have always had good luck with upper-end B&S and older tecumseh's. I have only had one honda engine, which I still have. It has around 18 hours and now uses about a quart of oil a week. I am planning to rebuild this winter. I have a B&S vanguard, which has around 70 hrs on it, it still runs like new. I also had an old craftsman (Tecumseh) 10hp, the engine ran great for 200+ hrs, but for some reason it kept blowing starters, I sold it.

Kohler "K" series and ONAN ! now that's a motor. - Kris

The Kohler Magnums are hard to beat. They are basically a K series engine (same block and internals) but unlike the K series, they have electronic ignition.

-Deerslayer

When I was a kid, my neighbor bought a used Kawasaki KZ1000 motorcycle. I'll never forget the "bat out of hell" sound that thing made (deep, powerful, endless torque). I always wanted one and it made me smile to find out that my first Deere in the late 80's (185 Hydro) had one (17hp single). Been using them trouble-free ever since.

-gh

I agree with Engine Tech, Kawasaki liquid-cooled engines.

I had a Kohler on my last Craftsman - Once was enough for me

If you want the 'best' then it will be liquid cooled - Can't think of a poorly designed liquid cooled small gas engine, so any brand would be OK . . . . but if I was buying it, it would be both liquid cooled and made in Japan

I went one step farther and made sure it burns diesel fuel - Can't think of a poorly designed liquid cooled, made in Japan small diesel engine either - ANY of them will likely outlive you

Don

Can I change my answer? I want to add diesel to my preferred engine as well!!!

We have bolted a few Chonda's onto various machines, usefull life is only rated at 500 hrs. We'll se when they get 500 hours on them (20 years for average homeowner).

It depends how you define "best". If you define "best" as having the following characterists: durability, strength, ease of maintenance, parts availability, simplicity, longevity, and power & torque, the cast iron Kohler Ks and Ms are hard to beat. Because of the above characteristics, nearly all garden tractor pullers use them.

If your "best" is smooth and quiet, I agree that liquid cooled engines are better.

-Deerslayer

Tough to beat the old cast iron Kohler. The 7hp in my 70 will plain outwork most of the 12hp junk made today. I've pulled absolutely stunning weights with little Cub Cadets.
In fact the power of the motor will encourage stuff thats probably dangerous. One time I was hauling a load of rocks that almost got away from me going down a little hill where I lost traction on some loose soil and suddenly the trailer was pushing the tractor around. Fortuately caught traction before anything really bad happened but I was seriously considering bailing out!

ALL GOOD !!! With...fresh fuel, clean filters,
and oil changes. Doesn't really matter the brand
if you're a good "maintenance man". Engine problems
usually never surface...UNLESS...you've "fallen down
on the job" in one of these categories.

T-Man

With fuel at about $3 a gallon, fuel economy would rate high on my list as a 'best' attribute - Over a 1000 hour lifespan a fuel efficient engine could almost save it's initial cost in fuel savings alone

Initial engine price is the single biggest factor in what most manufacturers choose to put on their products - You just can't put a $1,000 engine on a $2500 lawn tractor and sell it and still make a profit, so if you're looking at inexpensive machines, you're not going to have your choice of any of the 'best' engines - Hard to even find an aircooled Honda on any machine in that price range

Religious maintenance though will likely make your Briggs, Kohler, Tecumseh or Onan outlast the stamped tin machine it came on though, so what they used isn't really all that important . . . . unless you get stuck with a non-OHV Kohler like I had on my old Craftsman - No doubt I ran 5 times more fuel through that sucker in 10 years than the engine cost to build. I briefly thought of taking it off the tractor for use on a generator or something else that doesn't get used so much and replacing it with a Honda V-twin . . . . but then bolting a $1K Honda on a stamped tin Craftsman made absolutely no sense, so I just kept feeding it gasoline . . . . about a gallon and a half every hour. I now have a diesel which does the same job on about half a gallon an hour - True, it's going to take me awhile to recoup what I paid for the tractor, but I'm pretty condfident that my Kubota will last long enough to do that ;-)

Don

I agree that fuel cost is a consideration. My cast iron Kohler Magnum 12 hp engine consumes about half the gasoline that today's 24hp v-twin consumes.

-Deerslayer

Where does Kawasaki fit in all this? I've heard they are premium ... ???

Kawasaki's are very nice, kohler too but with issues,but the bad boys are the onan's! We have several jd's w/onan engines that just won't quit. One has over 3,400 hours on it and it has never seen a wrench other than oil changes and plugs over its life without burning or puffing oil. They just don't build them like they used to. Onan gets my vote, and we have em' all!

There are 12 HP & 16 HP Kubota diesel engines in use on Kubota generators that have over 25,000 hours on them.

They are designed to go over 10,000 hours before the first overhaul.

*Posted by rcmoser (My Page) on Wed, Nov 8, 06 at 7:31
Wisconsin!

I've only had two small-engine mechanical failures in my life.
1. A 3HP B&S on a Mini-Bike I had. It was so worn out, it was run on pure STP Oil Treatment. It ran for an entire summer like that before finally locking up.
2. A Tecumseh
**Posted by tractorlarry
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*Wisconsin is what my 66 & 67 Bolens Tractors have on them.40 and 41 years old and still going .

**The B& S 18 HP 2 Cyl has been a lemon on the MTD power craft since I bought it new in 1995.
Tecumseh on an almost new push mower never was able to keep it running.

http://www.hubcapcafe.com/i/2001/storycty/chev6001.JPG

http://www.hubcapcafe.com/i/2001/storycty/chev6001a.JPG

That is the most confusing post I have read! What is with all the asterisks and wavy lines and random picture links? Are you posting in DOS?

Tuckermaclain, you asked: "Some of you seem to be of the opinion that the best engine should always be sought. I think one may come out money ahead if you buy the cheapest Tecumseh and replace it once or twice over the life of the tractor. Any opinions?"

My first lawnmower was a Toro with a Suzuki 2-stroke motor. It was a fabulous engine for the price. When I shopped for a new mower the only premium engine I could find was the Kawasaki, and it didn't make sense to me to pay $800 for a push mower that would be toast if you accidently ran over something solid. So I ended up with a Briggs Quantum, which burned oil from the day I bought it and rapidly became hard to start. Now I have the cheap little Honda GCV160 engine with it's nylon camshaft. By no means do I consider it comparable to the Suzuki or Kawasaki engines, but it starts on the first pull and doesn't burn oil, and it has already outlasted the Briggs by double the hours.

So my answer to your question is that I am willing to strike a compromise on price vs. engine life, but I am not willing to put up with an engine that irritates me every time I use the machine.

Fuel consumption is a good point and again I'll vote for the 7hp in my Cub Cadet model 70. I can mow my 1/4 acre on about a quart and a half of gas.
Of course if you had big property you'd probably want larger than a 38" deck so you'd step up to a 10 or 12hp, either way low revs big torque.

Even if three bad engines were to last as long as one good engine, for all that time you still had a bad engine.

Thanks Kubotabx2200, that's what I was trying to say.

The Subaru EX series engines on Powermate generators come with a 3 year warranty. The other engines all come with a 2 year warranty.

Interesting that they are willing to warrant the Subaru engines for a year longer than any other engine maker.

having trouble with computer, hope this isn't a duplicate message.

Considering a tractor with a kohler twin 17 hp. Seller says low compression but no noises, smoke or oil leaking. Price is low.

Any advice would be appreciated.

The old KT-17 Kohler had some problems.
The opposed twin Kohler magnum was a great engine.

A quality engine overhaul will off set that low price.
Good luck on your decision.

Quote:

"That said I hear United Rental "the largest rental company in the US" is starting to switch alliance to Robin Subaru. Mostly due to Honda's hard to work with warranty reputation."

I think that Honda's "hard to work with warranty reputation" is undeserved. Honda issues things like failure analysis literature, manuals, and service CDs to dealers in order to make sure dealers and techs can accurately determine whether or not a claim should be made in the first place. Let's face it.....MOST "warranty claims" wouldn't ever be submitted in the first place, if the owners manual and warranty literature for a product was read and understood by the end user.

Neglect, misuse, abuse, etc. are never warranty issues that should be covered.....and neither is the labor that goes into diagnosing a problem that turns out to NOT be a warranty issue. If a known bogus claim is never submitted, then the hard-to-deal-with engine manufacturer becomes not-so-hard-to-deal-with. I know all too well that many of the "claims" I told customers flat-out that I wouldn't submit, (because it would ultimately have my name on it), were only passed on to me by a salesman or friend in the hopes that I would "go to bat" for a customer. They probably knew the "issue" was bogus all along, but why not give it a try and slide a claim in under the radar?

My gut feeling about a large organization like United Rentals going with Robin Subaru has less to do with the engines being as good or better than the Honda stuff, or Honda being hard to deal with as far as warranty issues go. Honda is simply more well-positioned in the market and therefore less likely to be willing to be dictated to regarding THEIR pricing and policies. They already have a huge dealer network, and Robin Subaru probably looks at a major national player like United as a way for them to provide a large dealer network of their own.

;-)

I've purchased a LOT of stuff in the past 20 years, from electronics to appliances to lawn equipment. Of the hundreds of assorted items, I can only think of one or two things priced over $50 that actually went bad and they were well beyond the warranty period. Automotive parts are a different story. Whether you're talking about a lawn tractor or an electric shaver, it's my belief that if you buy good stuff, and don't abuse it, it will last.

I worked my way through college in a tire shop. Talk about bogus warranty claims! Everybody with bad shocks, a misalignment, or poor maintenance practices (low pressure, no rotation) thinks their tires are defective.

I have a 15hp aluminum block OHV pressure lube engine in my GT225 which has served me well. It's not the greatest motor ever made, but it's definitely good enough for turning long grass into short grass, and firm dirt into loose dirt. It's a lawn mower, not a top-fuel dragster.

For my purposes, comparing an engine that gets 1500 vs. one that gets 4000 hours is futile. Ten years ago, we bought a used Dixon ZTR 5421 with a Kohler 16hp Magnum engine with 120 hours on it. I now have 245 hours on it. You can do the math on how long I'll have to live to wear this engine out. It's been a great performer; I've only had to replace the fuel pump.

I bought a second lawn tractor for my property - cheaper than dragging one back and forth. Silly me!

MTD carcass (decently assembled) housed a new B&S 20hp that committed sepuku (alctually blew a hole in its side) after one hour of use.

A new record!

I would say that the kohler magnum twins were maybe the best engine ever put in a lawn mower / tractor. The average age of the ones that I own is 21 years old with over 1000 hours... each. They start and make lots of torque and just keep on running as long as they have some oil in there somewhere. I am a big honda fan, but don't have enough hours on any to say that they are great for the long haul. The briggs vertical twins are ok, but have weak areas like starter and carb issues and wiring that can get funky without really good care.

The small block chevy is the best engine ever produced. Oh wait we're talking small engines here. I've had good luck with all mine. I have a tecumsah, two Briggs one a vanguard and the other an intek, a Kohler command, and a honda. All run great. Suprisingly the honda is the hardest to get running when the temps drop in the fall.

Wow! I came in on this at 43 posts and had to look!

I have to say, my Gravely L8 from 1966 (with a Gravely 6.6HP engine) and my 430C with a Kohler K301 (12HP) from 1969 are the most reliable of any equipment I've owned.
I also still have an old Hahn Eclipse rototiller with a B&S from 1962. Runs great but burns some oil though.
My other experiences are:
Tecumseh - ugh!!!!
MTD with a B&S 20HP I/C (c.1999) it's given me problems over the last seven years -I've replaced an oil seal and it is now in the shop for its second exhaust valve seat replacement!

Just got my Generac (labeled as a Centurion) 16KW generator with a 1 liter 30HP twin delivered from Lowes. Engine looks sweet. Can't wait to install it and see how it runs. Just used the Robin-Subaru powerwasher today for a 5 hr stretch to prep the deck for sealer and it ran beautifully. Starts easily and runs quietly. Cleaned the carb on the 7.5 OHV Snow-King because it was needing some choke to run. Found out the pin that attaches the float to the carb (and serves as the bearing for the float) was never placed. No--I didn't lose it during disassembly. Not so good quality control at the Tecumseh factory. Still to its credit it ran without it for 4 years.

I'm getting kind of fond of Kohler, I have came into a few of them from the 60's that just need some cleaning of the carbs and are good runners. Then again I have some B&S's that are still all original and I have used in go carts and mini bikes and are now just sitting in my garage just waiting for another victim.
I just acquired a CAST IRON briggs that could use some rings. I have no idea how old it is but It out lived a wheel horse and the simplicity it came out of..
If it's cast iron, ball bearing, and horizontal shaft It's worth my time

I put a new Briggs 16 HP cast iron engine (Model 326437) in our 1971 or 2 Gilson. Did this in 1983, and installed an hour meter at the same time. The engine now has well over 1000 hours and just this summer began burning oil. On taking it apart, the valves and valve seats were still excellent, the bore showed almost no wear, and the crankshaft connecting rod journal looks good and is within the Briggs' manual reject limits. The piston was the main sufferer. It has an eroded top land near the exhaust valve side. I've ordered a new standard size piston, connecting rod, and a set of very pricey chromium plated piston rings. These are no longer sold by Briggs, but I found set from a parts supplier.

When the engine was new I added an oil filter and have used Mobil 1 synthetic ever since, 20-50 weight. Also clean the air filter regularly, oil the foam band around the air filter, and change the oil when it looks dirty, which is often much more than the 25 hours recommended by Briggs. I believe that other engine brands would do as well, or better given equal care. My favorite engine is the little Kubota on our ZTR.

Onan,than Kohler "K" series and than Techcumseh HH series.

It's almost "Fair" time in my part of the world and this post reminded me of those guys that bring out the antique engines and display them each year. I'm thinking about those old one lung engines with the huge flywheels that sit idling and hit a lick just once in a while. I suppose that when the flywheel speed drops to a certain speed the governor kicks in. But some of those engines are really old and I just wonder if the owners had to rebuild them? Any of you guys into that.

Any engine that has "Honda GX" on it! Hands down. Easy starting, long-running, fuel-sipping, and quieter than most. I'd prefer a well-used yet cared for GX to any other engine new. GX's are so good, most poorly informed consumers buy the GC or GCV (vertical) after only reading "Honda" on the housing. The GC motors have some nice things to be said about them, but they are nothing at all like the GX internally.

Now, I know this is the tractors forum but I just wanted to put my $0.02 in for the best engine ever made (I can't believe no one has beat me to it).
And the winner is ---- the Lawn Boy F series two stroke! It's at least the best engine I've ever owned. Economical, durable, simplicity itself to work on, doesn't smoke with synthetic oil mixed in the gas, starts every time in two pulls and oh that sound! Two stroke hum my brothers!

My mower is a 1986 21 inch pusher and it's used one per week for probably 1.5 hours each time. I figure that mowing one per week from April to November for 22 years works out to approximately 1200 hours of use. In that time, I've replaced 6 plugs, one ignition module, and one set of upper and lower seals.

The F engines are built like brick convenience stations and run like garden hoses.

Again, I realize this is a tractors forum, but the guys over in lawn mowers already know all this.

Have a great labor day. Try not to labor too much.