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forensicmom

Organic gardening problems

18 years ago

All I keep hearing about is how we should only use organic materials and that if you have good soil, you don't need ANYTHING else. I have been using compost in all of my beds for at least a year now and plan to keep ammending the soil on an annual basis. I tried to use more natural preventatives for mildew (fat free milk & water, and baking soda and water), as well as the soap and water thing to prevent insects. None of that has worked for me and I've been overrun this year. If I don't use ANYTHING and leave it up to just the soil, I'll have NOTHING.

What else do you do? Am I the only one that is trying to use less chemicals but still finds the need for them?

Comments (18)

  • 18 years ago

    First, I'd post in the Organic Rose Forum, where you'll get more information. What they're going to say is: if you want to go chem free, plant the types that work for your climate. Research what roses are disease resistant (rugosas, lots of species, shrubs, many bourbons, etc., but not the hybrid teas), then plant those.

    I use no chemicals, no fungicides and no insecticides. I do get some BS on a few roses later in the season (Angel Face has some now), but I've found these to be mildew and BS resistant enough for my humid summers. Keep in mind I also keep them well watered, mulched and composted:

    Karl Lagerfeld
    Angel Face
    many rugosas (not Therese Brugnet who mildews, though she's a hybrid)
    Blushing Knockout
    Rose de Rescht
    Quietness
    Heirloom (can get bad BS but as it's matured is better)
    The Fairy
    New Dawn (climber)

  • 18 years ago

    It also depends on where you garden. Michael's advice is good for his zone, but in zone 7 most likely Heirloon, RdR and Angel Face will get terrible disease problems if grown no spray.
    But in general I agree with Michael. If you want to be organic, you have to select roses that are healthy in your climate. If you tell us what state you are in, I am sure people will post good suggestions for you. Good soil and compost are great but they can't make roses resistant, they just increase their vigor and ability to fight disease. In some climates with low fungus pressure this can be enough, but in many other places, it is not.
    If you want to be organic (which I fully understand, trying to do it myself), select right roses and probably adjust your level of expectations. Some imperfection will be there.
    Olga

  • 18 years ago

    Jeri has written about the time and patience that it takes to transition to organic rose gardening. It is not a one year process. It takes time to build up your soil so that it is healthy, more than a year.

    Also, take what Olga says seriously about only growing roses that are disease resistant in your area. There is no way that I could grow HTs/grandifloras and many floribundas here without using a fungicide regularly. I would have to revamp 90% of my garden in order to stop using fungicides.

  • 18 years ago

    I think you need to make a plan and stick to it. The worst thing you can do is to start off organic and then overreact with a barrage of misused chemicals at the first sign of trouble.

    1) If you intend to be organic, then Mike's and Olga's advice is good. Adjust your expectations and try to choose resistant roses.

    2) The nearest thing to organic would be to control fungal infections with chemicals but tolerate or use organic controls on insects. Don't buy All-In-One or 3-in-1 products, buy a good fungicide and spray either weekly or bi-weekly from season's start to season's end. A fungicide containing either propiconazole (such as Infuse or Banner Maxx) or tebuconazole (Bayer Advanced) would be ideal.

  • 18 years ago

    I forgot to include the 3rd step that I had in mind in my above posting:

    3) The next step away from organic would be to spray insecticides as well as fungicides but only as needed and only when effective. Aphids can be controlled without synthetic insecticides, resolve to do so. Japanese beetles cannot be controlled with insecticides in your rose garden although lawn grub control should help. I say ignore the japanese beetles. That probably leaves thrips and various leaf-eating slugs or caterpillars as the only legitimate targets and the insecticide Merit (imidacloprid) is probably your best weapon for both.

  • 18 years ago

    I may be one of the newest "no spray" users here. Before I went no spray, for about 10 or more years I seldom ever used insecticides. For about 3 years I have been using Conserve maybe 3 or 4 times a season. (It hasn't been out too long, I just don't remember how long I used it.)

    Now this year I don't use any chemicals. Many roses look bad, but many drop their leaves and quickly regrow them. Frankly I have been surprised at the ones that don't look too bad. I don't think I have too many HT or Flor. except for the Bucks.

    I keep using the term "no spray" because I don't know what organic means. I used Mills Magic at the beginning of the season, and I have tossed some cheap fertilizer on them. It was just a 10-10-10 or 13-13-13. I always replace much of the soil with top soil and mushroom compost. I also mulch.

    I also use ant bait if necessary, and out where there are no roses I have had to use Round Up. This is mainly because there is no other way to control the weeds on the steep hill.

    Sammy

  • 18 years ago

    Thanks, I'm in central Maryland and it gets extremely humid here. If I decide to go all organic, I understand it doesn't happen overnight but what do you do in the meantime to control things?

    Here's a list of the roses I already have. Can anyone tell me if are good for my area??

    Climbing Don Juan
    Climbing Sombrueil
    Climbing Teasing Georgia (David Austin)
    Climbing Gertrude Jeckyl (David Austin)
    Climbing Mortimer Sackler (David Austin)

    Hybrid Tea 'Peak Performance'
    Hybrid Tea 'Pascali'
    ??? 'Double Delight'
    ??? 'Betty Boop'
    ??? 'Julia Child'
    ??? 'Queen Elizabeth'
    ??? 'Chicago Peace'

    Knockout (red)
    Double Knockout

  • 18 years ago

    I am also in Maryland, Rockville area.
    I have experience with most roses on your list with the exception of Mortimer Sackler.
    Knock Out and Double Knock Out, you should have no problem to grow them no spray here.
    All others I would not consider a candidates for no spray garden here, they will get Black Spot even if you put them in pure compost, give them full day sun, excellent air circulation and provide adequate water.

    If you are interested I can give you a list of roses that can be grown no spray here. Unfortunately it is going to be very short list, if you aim for no Black Spot. If you are willing to cope with 30-50% leaf loss, the list can be longer.
    Our BS pressure is one of the worst in the country. We have the optimal temp conditions for BS spores germination, not as hot as in TX, for example, but just warm enough. Our humidity is also very high.
    Olga

  • 18 years ago

    Olga - THanks so much. I'm in Anne Arundel County just north of Annapolis. Mortimer Sackler is supposed to have good resistance to a lot of things, according to David Austin but it's still new.

    I would LOVE a list of good ones for our area. I am considering adding a few more this year and would like to have a list like that handy just in case I need to replace any.

  • 18 years ago

    "If I decide to go all organic, I understand it doesn't happen overnight but what do you do in the meantime to control things?"

    Forensicmom, this is what I'd do:

    For blackspot and mildew, I'd spray Sunspray Horticultural Oil, weekly, at the growing season concentration of 1 part oil to 100 parts water. Be sure the plants are well hydrated before spraying and spray during the cooler parts of the day. Even in blackspot hades, this should result in less than 20% of infected leaves. Start replacing the most disease-prone.

    For aphids, I'd spray them off with a strong stream of water, every day if necessary. For other insects, I'd pick them off or ignore them.

    For fertilizers, I'd just feed each rose a cup of alfalfa meal per month, but any good organic fertilizer should work. I'd avoid any fertilizer with more than 1% phosphorous. You want to encourage beneficial fungi in the soil and you do this by letting the soil fungi feed phosphorous to your rose and your rose, in turn, will then feed the fungi.

  • 18 years ago

    Mostly agree with Mike, except that Sunspray Horticultural Oil will reduce BS levels here to less then 20%. Tried this, didn't work for me :(
    Forensicmom. I am pessimistic about Mortimer Sackler, sorry. In general Austin roses are not resistant here. I will be happy, if I am wtong, but even Mayflower, which is claimed to be bullet proof by Austin, looses 100% its leaves in MD.
    I will send you a list of more resistant roses tonight.
    Olga

  • 18 years ago

    Olga, would you put your list online, or send it to me too? I am having much better results than I had thought I would have, but would love to see your successes for my list to order next year.

    Sammy

  • 18 years ago

    Sammy, I just send you e-mail.
    Forensicmom, it is not possible to send you e-mail through gardenweb. You can send me a message through my personal page and I will reply.
    Olga

  • 18 years ago

    Listen to Karl -- He has it exactly right.

    One of the most important things you can do is to resolve to eliminate roses which are
    consistently troubled by fungal disease.

    Some roses will have problems when the plants are young, but a rose which
    CONSISTENTLY has problems, once-mature, is just not worth the space it occupies.

    Unless you live next door to an experienced rosarian, you will have to make some
    determinations by trial and error.
    Any list of "Disease-Resistant" cultivars will vary, sometimes GREATLY,
    from one part of town to another, much less from one zone to another.

    Jeri

  • 18 years ago

    So true. You have to find the roses that do well in your area. Doing this eliminates the need to spray, as long as you can tolerate a few leaves here and there getting yucky. The correct roses for an area will still look fabulous though.

    I've removed the roses that can't be grown this way. I have NO desire to expose myself to toxins, and I have absolutely NO desire to go out in this awful heat and humidity to spray. I'm not even deadheading right now.

    Sandy

  • 18 years ago

    Pim Ling of Bailey nurseries has hybridized disease resistant roses that might be worth looking at--they come with a 2 year guarantee that chemicals won't be needed.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Guarantee terms

  • 18 years ago

    Local information is the best, in my opinion. Most large cities have a local rose society, and I suggest going to a meeting of one and asking them which roses can be grown by organic methods and means in your microclimate.
    If you shop at a rose nursery that sells roses in pots, check out the foliage before you buy, rose species and cultivars that have glossy foliage have a cuticle, that covers the leaves, that prevents' fungal spores from spreading. The glossier the foliage, the better resistance to foliage disease.

    Lux.