Sorry to here I thought the little guy had perked up. I found this link earlier today. Check the Constipation, as well as swim bladder infection. While I dont agree with all advise on this site the disease descriptions are done well. The pics are ehhhh. but I seem to have trouble with cameras myself. Is this tank a cycled 5 gal.? I cant remember what set up you had.

Here is a link that might be useful: Betta diseases

Yes Woeisme,he perked up for awhile(few days)and now has gone back to the listless thing.
The tank is cycled.
I appreciate your reply.
Grice

Can you get a picture, Grice?

Does he have any buddies? Do you give him any time in front of a mirror to flare?

Aside from that, I don't know. :( Has his color faded at all?

No Min his color has not faded. He never has been one to flare. At least not yet(I just bought him at PetSmart in June). As far as buddies,he is in my plant room with two other Betta tanks.
I could take a photo though, I am not sure how it would turn out. I have a very inexpensive digital camera(well to be honest it's cheap)and am not sure how well the quality would be. I don't even know if I can get Bailey to come out of hiding long enough to get a good snapshot.
The site that Woeisme refered me to is very useful, though now I have three different ailments in mind and no idea which to treat him for. Should I try treatment for all three?
Calling Woeisme,LOL
Grice

Possibly the epsom salt bath. I think that can help with parasites as well. Fish disease is hard to diagnose, symptoms are similar. I have only read on betta sites about the depression thing, aside from minaku. This is only the 3rd betta I have owned (still in QT). Mine always seemed lively andwould give me a flare along with enthusiastic feeding. I dont think the bath will hurt either way. The peas would only benefit also. What 3?

If he's constipated, he'll be swollen at the belly and you will see no signs of poop. For that, fast and feed the inside of a cooked, skinned pea to help him pass the blockage.

For an injured swim bladder - and this should be evident if he really struggles to come up and stay up, or go down and stay down - time only will tell. You can help him out in different ways.

For dropsy, almost nothing. Kanacyn (kanamycin) has produced some results. Bettamax, no longer in production, gives needed vitamins to bettas. Maracyn/Maracyn 2 could help, and an epsom salt bath to reduce swelling.

If your fish has dropsy, it's pretty telltale: the pinecone, the lethargy, the faded color, refusal to eat. Dropsy is pretty fatal and sometimes very contagious, so don't cross-contaminate by using the same net or cup.

I wouldn't treat for anything unless it was completely organic, like epsom salt or aquarium salt. We don't know what he has, after all. Anyway, if he is bloated from constipation or dropsy, avoid aquarium salt as that will retain water, and go for epsom salt, which helps move water out. Other than the chemical properties of the water, the heat, and location (any loud sounds nearby? Is there something that may look predatory in the vicinity?) I really can't say.

Oh sorry,Woe.
I was talking about three ailments.
I narrowed in on three things that sound like they may be the problem.
Ick,constipastion,and swimbladder.
I was just about to log off and had decided to try the Epsom Salt bath first. You think that may be a good idea?
This is my first attempt at keeping fish since I was a child.
I started in April and was surprised at how quickly I became attached.
It may sound a bit strange but I am just as attached to my fish as I am to my other pets. I have gotten quite down at the thought of my poor Bailey 'checking'out just now.
Grice

Guess we were posting at the same time Min.
He is not swollen. I have gravel at the bottom so it is hard to see poop. He comes up fine,just does'nt stay up. He sometimes will stay down(hidden behind his cave laying on the gravel)all day and night or will hide up top behind his filter box. His color does'nt seem faded. He will eat once I let him know there is food in the tank.
The thing that seems to be a common thread is the letargic behavior.
I,m thinking I'll try the Epsom Salt bath then the pea and pray for the best.No loud sound nerby. He was in my bedroom which has a/c on at night. I thoughtperhaps that would cause the temps to flucuate so I moved him to the plant room. There is nothing predatory surrounding him. Just ficus tree,rubber tree, and philos.
Thanks.

The epsom bath wont hurt. It is said to relieve constipation in humans also. If anything it will do you good to soak your feet, sounds like your paceing. Also, dry flake food soaked in medicinal parafin oil, castor oil or glycerol can work. for constipation. Is there less poop than normal? also make sure you "shell" the pea if you use that.

Hmm, if he's not swollen, then he's not constipated, so no need for an epsom salt bath. Do look around for poop, though - internal parasites also cause fish to be lethargic. Diagnosing internal parasites is tricky if the feces cannot be seen, but the symptoms are akin to what you're listing. Have you fed live or thawed frozen food lately?

To treat parasites feed a medicated food like Jungle Pepso food, and use Maracyn2. The medicated food is best.

Well Woe,you're right about me needing to soak my poor tired feet. I'm a bundle of nerves over this little guy.
I'll get the epsom salt and we'll(fish and I)give that a try.
Now when you say soak the flakes in the oil,exactly how much oil is appropriate to use?
Min,I have not given him any live food at all. Though I did give him freeze dried bloodworms. I feed that to all my bettas as an occasional snack.
Come to think of it,I gave him some the night before he started to decline. He ate them as usual(swimming contently) and then next day he was almost catotonic,which is how he has been for the most part ever since.
Do you think that maybe the bloodworms did it? Maybe he ate to much. I only give a pinch to all my 'guys'once every week or so.
I also want to ask you and Woeisme something. I do see a small white speck just below his right eye. I am almost certain that it was not present when I got him. Do you all think that this could be Ick? It is a very small dot. From what I read last night it fits the bill since the spot is small like a grain of salt.
I'm trying to think of everything I can so I can narrow in on something before I make a mistake and treat him for something he does'nt have.
People are sure to think that I have gone nuts with the worry that I have shown over this poor fish. I even had someone at a pet store that I called ask me why I just do'nt flush him and start over with a new fish. My reply to her was "Would you flush your cat if it had a hairball".
Thanks for the advice and for letting me rant.
Grice

Wow, that's a great response to that pet store employee! God, some of them are really rude and plain ol' stupid.

Sometimes bettas develop pimple-looking spots on them that may resemble ich. They look like whiteheads - white spots that are raised, but are covered by the slime coat. Ich has a distinctive salt-grain look to it. The pimples - well, some bettas have them, some of them don't. Likely it IS a pimple, as bacteria may have gotten under the slime coat, but the fish is still fighting it off. That's normal, and shouldn't be a cause for concern unless they suddenly start multiplying like crazy.

It's incredibly rare for freeze dried bloodworms to cause internal parasites, but as he's not constipated - and do look for poop, or clear out substrate from the bottom of the tank - then my only guess is internal parasites. For that, medicated food and Maracyn 2 will work.

If you did the epsom salt bath allready thats OK. I had read that it is sometimes used as a pre-treatment for internal parasites before using stronger medication. It was internal parasites that it is also used for, wasn't sure last night. Think the reason is kind of a flush out. It will make them poop. Maracyn2 is harmless to fish, but in some instances will crash your system, even though it is labelled it wont. This happened to me most recently. The gourami/neon tradgedy.I always have a QT tank set up and keep the cycle going with free and clear ammonia. Either for a hospital or new arrivals. Anyway the day after the last treatment of maracyn2 I did a 25% pwc (your water gets very cloudy from the medication). I always take a cup full of water from the tank before change out to test. Well I noticed that there was an ammonia spike, no nitrites and barely nitrate reading if any. I imediately grabbed a sponge from a cycled tank and stuffed it in with my filter cartridge along with some rocks from my main tank that I wanted to get rid of. The tank did start cycle again after 3 days with a few pwc's and adding more seed material. The only reason I am mentioning this is if you dont allready have some emergency seed material in another healthy cycled tank , add a sponge to the intake or slide it in back of your filter cartridge just in case. Maracyn2 is a fine medication, so dont get the wrong idea. Alot of people will reccomend it. Pepso food is a good idea if the betta will eat it, same goes for the flake food w/parafin oil. Oh yeah, the food will only soak so much, sojust enough oil to saturate it. Any excess will just stay behind.I used an eye dropper and dripped it on some flake food on a paper plate. Then scooped it into the tank with a spoon. Pepso food / epsom salt bath or replacement for aquarium salt / peeled peas / parafin treated food all same result flush out. I've used pepso food but if he wont eat it may be a waste of $5 at least you can use the other stuff for yourself. Hope all is well. And the petstore guy is a real J.O., dont feel embarrassed about an attachment to fish. Fish like bettas have a personality, I hated giving one up, along with an angelfish that I had for years when I went to boot camp way back when. The others didn't bug me as much. But still when you take the job of carring for a living thing, you feel responsible for its well being.It can be upsetting when it falls ill or dies. No shame in carring, these things happen, no fault of yours.

Is he scratching himself against objects? Ick should be visible at some point in its cycle [use a magnifiying glass]. Try some live brine schrimp. If that doesn't perk him up he's really sick. What is your tank setup. A 100 percent water change may be in order. What are your water parameters [ph, ammo, etc]?

Min and Woe,I can't thank the two of you enough for the advice and for listening and caring enough to respond. You two make a great team(I see a talk show or book in your future,LOL).
No, James he's not scratching himself against anything. He just sits there either at the bottom of the tank or behind the filter case sort of staring blankly off into space. Once I peer inside or put my finger on the tank,he suddenly comes alive,swims a minute, and shuts down again. Sort of like a wind up toy with a low battery if that makes sense.As far as the tank setup; Five gallon filtered tank,gravel at the bottom,heater. All in all I thought it was pretty good.
I am ashamed to admit that I have no clue as to the water parameters. I know I should check those things out. I have only been doing 25% water changes on all the betta tanks.
Well,I will keep you all posted on Bailey's condition. I certainly hope he makes a turn around soon,I'd hate to turn into a barfly,LOL(I can just see myself explaining to "the group" how my poor sick fish drove me into the arms of a nice chardonay bottle)
Just a poor attempt at humor.
Thanks all. I'll keep you posted
Grice

Min and Woe,I can't thank the two of you enough for the advice and for listening and caring enough to respond. You two make a great team(I see a talk show or book in your future,LOL).
No, James he's not scratching himself against anything. He just sits there either at the bottom of the tank or behind the filter case sort of staring blankly off into space. Once I peer inside or put my finger on the tank,he suddenly comes alive,swims a minute, and shuts down again. Sort of like a wind up toy with a low battery if that makes sense.As far as the tank setup; Five gallon filtered tank,gravel at the bottom,heater. All in all I thought it was pretty good.
I am ashamed to admit that I have no clue as to the water parameters. I know I should check those things out. I have only been doing 25% water changes on all the betta tanks.
Well,I will keep you all posted on Bailey's condition. I certainly hope he makes a turn around soon,I'd hate to turn into a barfly,LOL(I can just see myself explaining to "the group" how my poor sick fish drove me into the arms of a nice chardonay bottle)
Just a poor attempt at humor.
Thanks all. I'll keep you posted
Grice

Hi Grice, Hope all is well, one thing that concerns me. No water tests. Going by memory this is a new (under 3 months) tank, I think? I am assumeing your LFS tested the water for you to confirm your tank is cycleing, or not. Sometimes an aquarium can take up to 3-6 months to cycle or never. Testing is vital daily when starting a new aquarium until it is in cycle and weekly thereafter. Bio-filters can crash or numerous reasons. I reccomend a test set for pH, Ammonia + ammonium,Nitrite, Nitrate minimum. A GH and KH are useful as well as Phosphate and Silicate (for algae issues or live plants). I use the "Freshwater Master Test Set" by Aquarium Pharmaceutcals. it s very reliable as well as economical ($19 on the web $22+ in a LFS) get the newer version that has the first 4 tests I reccomended as apposed to the one older verson that has GH test instead of the Nitrate. They are good or a year and will last you that long. The dip multi-test strips can be very inaccurate and in the long run cost way more. It is possible that you have had an ammonia or nitrite spike and that is the cause. Also on the list of Inaccurate are some LFS staff. I have seen them give bad advise and usually try to sell a medication or some other crap to "fix" the problem. I had to return a dead fish once to a LFS that had a 14day guarentee with a sample of your water. The pimplefaced teen that tested the sample told me my pH was to low thats why the fish died. Meanwhile she didn't bother to put the cap on the test tube and used her finger to cover it while shakeing or rinse the tube from the last test. I pointed to the directions printed by the testing area. We did it again and a difference of .8 ppm. Imagine the compatence of the guy who told you to just flush Bailey. Don't take this as a lecture but just suggestion. Good test set $19-$26, having piece of mind that water is not the issue priceless.

No, not at all Woe,I don't take that as a lecture but as good advice.
Sadly,Bailey did not make it. The epsom salt bath had me thinking he would(he seemed to be responding a bit). However,on Friday morning I noticed that he had let go.
Thanks for all your help.
Grice

No, not at all Woe,I don't take that as a lecture but as good advice.
Sadly,Bailey did not make it. The epsom salt bath had me thinking he would(he seemed to be responding a bit). However,on Friday morning I noticed that he had let go.
Thanks for all your help.
Grice

I'm sorry, Grice. Sometimes we don't know why our fish don't make it. I'm sure he had a good and happy life with you.

So sorry Grice. It can be frustrating, but it comes with the territry of keeping fish. Are your others OK? Did you ever set up the 10gallon? My betta was supposed to be makeing his debut in the main tank this weekend but was startled to find him with a case of ICK. I had thought he had velvet/rust parasites originally but wasn't sure if it was just the difference of light in my QT tank and the LFS. My parameters are ideal and the QT tank has plants that are thriveing. I guess he had the velvet and it weekend him enough to get ICK? or maybe what I suspected as rust was scale damage from rubbing? I never saw him rub or dart , but goes to show ya. Even with precautions and ideal water conditions theese things can happen. Anyhow, I am yanking the plants and starting ICK treatment with salt. Hopefully he recovers. Come to think of it, every fish I bought from the store where this guy came from has died or is sick. Guess that place is off my list.

I bought a crowntail for myself some three and a half week ago, maybe four, and set him up. Thought he'd be okay, since the other two I got from the same place turned out disease-free. Well, I looked at him two days after I got him and he had some white dots on his body. "Crap! Ich!" I thought, and ran for the heater and the salt.

Thing is, he was never rubbing or darting, he was more lethargic than anything. Refused to eat, but that was normal. The only reason I knew he was sick was because I saw the cysts. His water was pristine, heat was good, all conditions pointed to green...

Well, I guess the moral of the story is what woeisme has stated: even with good conditions, your fish can still get sick.

No Woe I never got around to the ten gallon. I still may. I thu=ink I'll take a break and enjoy my three remaining bettas for awhile and then perhaps I'll proceed with the ten gallon. I hope your betta recovers from his bout with Ick.
Min sorry to hear about the crowntail . Did he recover?
You and Woe are certainly right about sick fish even with good conditions. It's just so disappointing,but at least my three other pals are doing alright.
Thanks again to you both.
Grice