I think you are too hard on yourself, campanula! Everyone has failures. It's how we learn and is an important part of the process in my opinion. You've already learned a lesson I have yet to conquer. I have a terrible time culling out the dogs! That's why I have all these seedlings around in pots that look like so much debris half the time, leafless, spotty, sticks. But they bloomed and I can't seem to part with them, lol.

As for your limited choices, we all have that same situation. You can only use what you have access to. Unless you plan on buying a host of roses based strictly on their breeding possibilities. I don't have room for that and I think that's the case with most of us.

And there is nothing wrong with using OP hips. For one thing it's a very good way to learn the process and figure out what works for you. And for another you can get interesting and diverse looking seedlings even with OP seeds.

Even when you do have time to make deliberate crosses it will take time to master that art too. I have been trying for 5 years with no seedlings to show for it. At first they just didn't take, then when I finally got a few to take the seeds didn't germinate and now that I've had a few germinate I've yet to get a seedling to survive.

So don't give up and don't beat yourself up about it. Just keep trying and you'll find what does work for you. Kim, has been telling me just recently that even Ralph Moore had his faillures at hybridizing too!

Hi Campanula and Seil! You can put it in perspective with this information. It has been written that one of the most prolific breeders in American history, Gene Boerner, raised so many seedlings, he rode on the back of a tractor which pulled him through the fields to see them all. Of course he missed many decent and probably some exceptional roses, but he raised hundreds of thousands of them to get the ones he released. I've read that only one in ten thousand seedlings were usually deemed worthy of introduction.

What does that say for those who raise them on their kitchen window sill and have commercial success? John Sheridan raised his seedlings on his windowsill and Harkness released his Sheila's Perfume. I grew it own root in the desert and it was a HORSE! Vigorous, healthy, prolific bloomer with thick, strong wood. Not perfect, but what is?

Yes, Ralph Moore "failed" millions of times! His seedling houses were chock full of things required to answer his "what if?" push. It took him decades to go from Ferdinand Pichard to where he achieved, literally decades. His moss roses took years. The first successful breeder bloomed for the first time in 1959. His first introduction from it came out in 1969. In the ensuing decade, he planted many hundreds of seed from crosses with that monster. It was larger than his greenhouses, flowered only once in spring and mildewed like all get out, but he kept pimping that pollen and sewing the seed. Fairy moss is smaller than many of the first seedlings were by the end of their first season, but it grows and flowers well from spring through fall and has led to many even more successful roses of all types. His species crosses and Halos required as many, if not more, to arrive at things he felt good enough for anyone to actually have in their gardens. He often would show me something, ask my opinion then state, "it's ONLY taken 35 years to get to this point". You think YOU should be discouraged because some OP seeds you germinated were awful? LOL! Your chances of succeeding are probably enhanced because you are as critical of them as you are.

We have plenty of unhealthy things available. Dumping a few will help raise the health levels greatly! Dump away! I do. But, that's the fun of it. You never know what you're going to get. You can learn to make educated guesses, but just when you think you know the rules... Kim

aaaah, cheers for the encouragement, guys. Fortunately, patience is one of my only redeeming features here so although I am definately not pleased with this years seedlings, next year WILL be better. As for dumping.....untold thousands of various seedlings and cuttings have gone for compost - plant health always trumps aesthetics imo. In truth, I did read quite a few of the germination articles, only to feel horrified that many of them required a level of dedication and attention to detail which is completely beyond me. Even so, I have already decided to sow fewer seeds, from a wider range of roses and make some effort to protect these seedlings from the chaotic household over which I preside. For a start, rather than leaving seeds over winter in the back garden, I will be keeping them in my fridge and sowing at the point of germination (we call this chitting and I frequently do this with bigger seeds which can have erratic germination (parsnips) or to do a viability test or even get things moving faster (lawn seeds works a treat when it has been chitted). I am going to make a bit more of an effort to use a specific sowing mix - and increase the ratio of horticultural sand to organic matter (this one little change was quite revolutionary in raising the success levels of cuttings). Finally, I will use heps from roses on my allotment since there is a much higher likelihood that they will be cross-pollinated...and I will also collect a good few canina roses because I do want to do a bit of budding so I need a source of rootstocks (was wondering what would happen if more than one rose was budded on a stock) - I have an apple with 4 varieties which I grafted with my college tutor. I guess it would not be viable but I like to try things for the fun of it(which was how I discovered what a good stock New Dawn makes (yes,rootstocks, another of my many fancies - if I had the time and the focus, I would really like to look into Rose Replant Disease and the effects of varying rootstocks). Oh, so many interesting questions and so little time and space.

Multiple varieties budded on a common standard are done here. Week's used to offer "Twofers" where they would bud White and Brilliant Pink Iceberg to one standard, among a few others. As long as the growth habits of the varieties are pretty well matched, as color sports of the same rose usually are, the effects can be dramatic and beautiful. I've seen Mary Rose and Winchester Cathedral budded together on a standard. It was rather beautiful.

We have "Salad Citrus" trees with up to six varieties of fruit grafted to them. Those are usually rather awkward due to limes only producing inches of growth in the same time oranges and grapefruit produce feet to yards. Kim

Yep -- was going to say that -- you need to EXACTLY match the vigor of the dual grafts. That means using roses that are sports of each other usually works, and for anything else, the more vigorous sport will usually take over.

My friend has a grafting obsession and I've been watching a plant he did a few years back where he put fortuniana as the root stock, and then grafted four stems of Dr. Huey to that, and then at the top of each of those Dr. Huey whips he put four different roses -- I think they might have been Lipstick And Lace, Eureka, Solar Flair and Francois Rabelais. Then he tied the 4 rather long Dr. Huey whips to each of four fence posts, so it would look like the top of each of the fence posts had sprouted a rose. Anyways, Lipstick and Lace -- the mini -- is the winner. The rest slowly faded away.