Yes, for the most part roses that come in a climbing form where they are a sport do not rebloom as well as roses that are bred as climbers from the start. The old polyantha rose Little White Pet is a sport from a rambler. The rambler has little repeat while the sport White Pet blooms almost continuously.

The flowers on a climber are far enough above ground so they are regularly formed better than on a bush where weather affects them more.

Lance

From what I've seen and heard, it's probably fair to say that climbing sports of HTs, etc., don't repeat very well. However, with climbers-from-scratch, some do repeat well, but some don't.

It is a wholesale nursery so I figured they carry what works here in San Diego for the pro landscapers.

'New Dawn' really isn't that great for Southern California--there are many better choices. Maybe the mountains would be an exception, but otherwise not.

. They generally have a heavy spring crop followed by a better repeat bloom and usually a good fall crop of blooms with a few exceptions.

That depends. There are lots of older climbing roses that only bloom once in late spring or summer whether they have the term "Climbing" in their name or not. The notorious Dr. Huey is an excellent example of that.

Among the climbing roses bred during the last century, and especially since WWII, I think that statement's probably not a horrible distortion of reality. (On the other hand, there isn't all that much breeding work done to develop climbing roses, especially not when compared to the work done developing hybrid teas.)

Hoovb, maybe that's why they had so many New Dawn! The landscapers knew better! lol (See why it pays to post) What is a comparable that would work in the city? (You knew I would ask)

york rose, paparoseman/Lance, michaelg, so what you are saying is there are no rules of the rose to go by! lol

Little story: My Fathers neighbor has the most amazing roses. I asked him "how do you do it?" He said, "I don't really know what I am doing." (I know that the lady before him had a full time gardener, 24/7!) Then I asked, "Oh, by the way, what's the name of that rose?" He said, "I don't know? I don't know the name of most of 'em. I know that one it has a metal tag and it says Julia Child." lol just like that! He just goes with it!

Like so many things I keep trying to find the answers. Ahhh well, and so it goes.
Thanks all for the input.
Allison

Hard and fast, sharp and clear without exception rules?

No, there aren't.

Generalities more or less defined for the most part?

Yes, those exist.

(Think of it as similar to learning English! ;-) )

Yorkrose, now I'm a really nervous newbie! lol
So, I will continue reading my books, asking you questions and picking your rosey brains. :-P

Allison

Pink 'n fragrant 'n rebloomin, 'Renae' always comes to mind. And without the nasty thorns of 'New Dawn'. 'Crepuscule', while not pink, is a very easy rose for a beginner as well--99% thornless.

allison, ultimately what you learn is that the rose species in Europe & North America are pretty much all once-blooming roses, with canes of varying lengths from 2' long to 30' long. (The 30-footers are the sorts of roses that grow up into trees and make the tree look spectacular when the rose is in bloom, if you like that sort of thing. Their flowers are usually white and individually small, but there are TONS of them at once if the rose gets enough sun and is otherwise happy.)

Meanwhile there were also wild roses native to the semi-tropical parts of the Orient that also were cultivated as garden roses by the Chinese, Indians, and probably others (I'm not sure just exactly who all). When the Europeans learned of those roses they kind of freaked out about them, because while almost all of the roses they knew about only bloomed once per year (in late spring or summer, depending upon the rose, and with the notable exception of "the autumn damask rose"), those semi-tropical roses usually bloomed repeatedly, in flushes, as long as the weather was warm enough for the bushes to be in active growth. Those sub-tropical roses also had flower buds that opened in a much more svelte manner, with the individual petals gently swirling open in a seductive spiral (like all the florist roses we now think of as the iconic "rose"). Unfortunately, those sub-tropical roses also had "weak necks", such that those buds would nod down towards the ground as they grew if they had more than just a very few petals.

Most of rose breeding since that time has been devoted to getting rose hybrids that: bloomed repeatedly in flushes, with buds that opened in that elegant spiral fashion, that did NOT nod towards the ground as they grew in size/weight, and that ALSO were hardy enough to survive cold winters and also were resistant to the diseases roses are notoriously susceptible to.

As an afterthought, if fragrance was wanted, that was okay, too.

That's more or less a ridiculously simplistic summary of the last two centuries of rose breeding!

:-)

There are all sorts of variations within that overall story arc, but learning about those variations is part of the charm of getting bitten by the rose bug (as far as I'm concerned)!

You're going to have to search out the roses that grow well in Southern California. I don't know enough to even begin to offer any advice about that. Fortunately there are plenty of other rose growers here who are very familiar with those particulars.

Don't be surprised if you learn that some of the really good climbing roses for your part of the world aren't the modern ones, but rather are "antique roses". It's not actually all that unusual for certain groups of antique roses to perform better in particular specialty climates. In my part of the world (a little north of Boston) Alba, Gallica, and Rugosa roses grow quite well, but China roses are a problem, and hybrid tea, floribunda, and grandiflora roses grow well enough in most years, but often suffer badly in severe winters.

Hoovb, thank you very much for the suggestions. I do have a Renae as a 60" tree. So far it is limping along and getting used to it's new home. The few blooms so far were charming! I would love a climbing version. I will see who sells it. I will also check out Crepuscule. I am not particular about color. Right now just ones that make me feel like I am doing a good job taking care of them :-) I do have a young Awakening, Cinderella (Kordes), Madame Alfred Carriere, and Dixieland Linda. Paul Zimmerman and Trish said they were good ones for my area. I just got my first blooms on MAC and Awakening. So very nice! And they are all healthy so far. :-)

York rose, thank you for the rose story in a nutshell! Very informative and interesting. Great visual story too! As you can tell from what I wrote to Hoovb, I am definitely not going to limit myself to the newer roses. (I am even warming to the once bloomers, still working on the single petal ones :-))
I have to rose books I am reading right now and two on the way. I think I've been bitten!
Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge. It makes this journey even more fulfilling.

Allison

allison64: "I am not particular about color. Right now just ones that make me feel like I am doing a good job taking care of them :-) "

Congratulations, you've just by-passed several newbie years of buying what you like visually or by scent and then realizing you don't have time or otherwise want to spray for fungus so they don't look like they've been flocked!!! I wasted many a year trying to keep up here near LAX in the mildew capital. Over the years lack of time to spray took care of the susceptible and this forum has helped me make better choices. This year I've finally taken the OGR jump in a big way. Oh, how I wish the internet and this forum had been available 20 years ago when I first started my rose interest, so much time wasted in ignorance!

Benefit: you've saved so much money that you can buy all the sales at Vintage, et al. for the next few years, woo-hoo!!!

Lagomorphmom, now if I would have started out this way with men! HAHAHAHAHA Ohhhh, my!
Anyway, on the subject. I have kept roses in their plastic nursery containers for a couple years (maybe more), bought pathetic specimens at home improvement stores 'cause I wanted it and would make it all better, even bought a couple body bags. So I have dabbled in newbieness for sure. I have a few one cane wonders. I'm keeping them to see if I can make them new again!
I appreciate the kudos and will accept it. I will now add your rationale to my list. (And the enabled by the forum list)
Ok, what Antiques did you get for LA? The whole list now.

Allison

Allison, in the San Diego area, one good choice is 'Reve d'Or,' a Noisette which is fragrant, disease-free here, and repeats through the year. (Buff Yellow mostly)

The Climbing rose, 'Sombreuil' (which is NOT a Tea Rose) is a terrific climber for this whole area. Another excellent repeater, particularly if deadheaded. Incredibly fragrant (Creamy White)

For a BIGGER climber, we absolutely love "Secret Garden Musk Climber," which is disease-free here and incredibly fragrant. (White, single)

Tom Carruth's modern climber, 'Fourth of July' is a great rose, if you want something more colorful. (Red stripes on yellow-white)

We grow a rare Noisette, "Setzer Noisette," which is a great repeater and fragrant. It's disease-free, too. (It's not self-cleaning. Must be deadheaded.) (White)

If you want to really cover a lot of area, the double yaller (R. banksia lutea) and double white (R. banksia banksia) "Lady Banks" roses are terrific in Southern California. And, if you are near enough to the coast to have mostly cool summers, the yellow one will repeat quite nicely.

Check these out on HelpMeFind, and if you want more suggestions, give a hollar.

Jeri

Speaking of "Lady Banks" and covering a lot of area......

{{gwi:318644}}

:-)

And it really is spectacular.
One of the most wonderful things about it is the way the fragrance of violets fills the air under there.

Jeri

York Rose, I have never seen anything like that! WOW!! How old is it?

Jeri, thank you for the suggestions. I am about 10 mins from the ocean. I don't get the marine layer. It is in the low 80s right now. (this is the furthest inland I have been here. Anything over 74F is hot. whiiiine) We do have some days in the 90s, but really not many. Seems like it would be perfect for roses if I choose correctly. The coolest it gets is in the low 40s. I haven't even tried to tackle the subject of what roses need real winters yet.
I have been reading a rose book and write down the ones that are deemed "great" "best" "superb" "reliable" etc. by the author. David Austins buddy Graham Stuart Thomas. So far I have these to look up:

Portlands- (they are a group of Damasks right?)
Comte de Chambord
Mabree
Indigo

Centifolia-
Tour de Malakoff
Fantin Latour

Moss-
Jean Bodin
James veitch
Captiane Ingraham

Chinas-
Humes Blush
Giuletta
Andre Leroy

Misc.- or maybe all Centifolias? half asleep at this point of the list :-)
Perle d'Or'
Magna Charta
Paul Early Blush
Devoniesis

Mabree is one I would love, would it grow well here?
I do have a Sombreuil but need to replace it or add another to the garden. It is an wonderful rose. One of the best scents! Heavenly.

Thank you oh wise ones!
Allison

I have been reading a rose book and write down the ones that are deemed "great" "best" "superb" "reliable" etc. by the author. David Austins buddy Graham Stuart Thomas.

*** HOWEVER BEWARE!
Neither of those gentlemen live in Southern California.
They were assessing roses for conditions wildly different from your own.

You will have better results with Tea Roses, Noisettes, China Roses, and Polyanthas than you will do with most of that list.
Sadly, the Northern European once-bloomers, robbed of a cold winter dormancy, will produce scanty bloom, which will diminish every year until they give up the ghost.

I have done what you are doing, been there, done that.
I wouldn't listen to the people who told me those roses would not fare well here. I bought 'em anyway.
The people who tried to warn me were right, but I stubbornly had to find out for myself.

Of your list:

Portlands- (they are a group of Damasks right?)
No. They are the children of Damasks crossed with European Roses.

Comte de Chambord -- Very good here.
Mabree -- Died here, but it is lovely. Might work.
Indigo -- Had it three years. Produced one bloom, which never opened because of the thick coating of mildew.

Moss- Mosses do not fare well in Southern California.

Chinas (None of these roses are Chinas.
A good China for you would be the wonderful, color-shifting 'Archduke Charles.' Check it out.

Humes Blush -- NOT A CHINA. The rose sold under this name is not Humes Blush. It is a BIG, but beautiful once-bloomer.

Giuletta -- NOT A CHINA. Bourbon. MIGHT do OK.

Andre Leroy -- NOT A CHINA. This is a Hybrid Perpetual, Unsuccessful in my coastal climate.

Perle d'Or' -- Polyantha. (Poly-Tea) Wonderful in Southern California. Also see Lady Ann Kidwell, La Marne, and Mlle. Cecile Brunner.

Magna Charta -- Hybrid Perpetual

Paul Early Blush -- Hybrid Perpetual. If it don't mildew, it might be OK. I have only seen it grown successfully inland, in Ojai.

Devoniesis -- Likes heat, but we finally have a clone I think might work. Among the loveliest of Tea Roses -- the best sort of roses for Southern California gardens.

Please also see 'Grandmother's Hat,' and 'Gloire des Rosomanes.' Great Southern California roses, and continuous-blooming.

Jeri

Jeri, I won't go buy what someone says won't work here. I was just checking out what Thomas' favs' were. If I had happened upon one or two that would work well then....:-)
I will keep your list handy for sure. I have a binder, notebook (to take to nurserys so I don't go "ohhh isn't that perty I gotta have it..") and a spreadsheet.
You info is so helpful. The SD Rose Society put together a list, it was very limited. Mostly all the supposed "winners" HT, GF, FB. Very run of the mill. But they are showing so there ya go.

This is all so enjoyable (not counting fungus) and really not a downside to it. Especially considering we have no chiggers, rabbits, deer, or japanese beetles. I do have a big dog and my cats think my rose beds are really awesome potty boxes. As the house rots my yard will be nicer and nicer. lol Who needs to be inside here anyways?
Thank you!

Allison

Allison, did you know that there is a Heritage Roses Group in the San Diego area?
They're active, too. They've been involved in the preservation of R. minutifolia.

You might find them helpful, since they're right in your area.
If you're interested, let me know, and I'll send you contact information.

Also, I don't know where in the S.D. area you are, but California Coastal R.S. meets in Carlsbad.
Sure, they too are exhibition-focused. BUT they also have people who grow Old Roses and others.
You might find them helpful. (It's one of our favorite groups to speak to.)

Jeri

I don't believe I have. Interesting little thorny/prickly thing! How did we all get in the habit of calling them thorns instead of prickles and heps hips?

I will send you an email. :-)
Allison

I have Thomas's book and love it, but as jerijen so rightly points out, his recommendations reflect not only his own particular beauty aesthetic (and each of us has our own), but also the fact that he gardened in southern England. Southern England's climate is probably most akin to the west coast of Oregon, with a mild, pleasant summer and a mild, rainy winter.

Go to his chapters on the Chinas, Teas, Noisettes, etc., the roses that get killed in cold winters. When you read all his mourning in those chapters for beautiful rose cultivars that just don't open their flowers very well for him (unless they're grown against stone walls, with their retaining heat), remember that you don't live in a climate where even the summer is sometimes cloudy, while the rest of the year nearly always is. You also don't live in a climate as humid as his was.

If he had gardened in Southern California his experiences of those roses would have been very different. If I understand correctly your climate is much more like the climate of southern France.

York Rose, I hear you. I will be careful :-) That's funny, "grown against a stone wall" over and over! That cracks me up too! I swear I am just checking things out. Thank gawd I don't live in that climate. It isn't by accident! I would be a giant mold spore! And a grumpy one at that! (Tried that in western Oregon for a few years....I did love Oregon really, lush and fertile. Almost had that blueberry farm....Couldn't warm my husband up to it. So we are back here. Could be worse that's for sure.)
Anyway, Southern France, ahhh yes, I like that comparison. Time to go out into my garden....where's my glass of wine?! Hmmm, I do have some Jagermeister. It'll have to do.
Thank you!

If I understand correctly your climate is much more like the climate of southern France.

*** I think that's probably right.

I have here a nice little book, "CUTTINGS FROM MY GARDEN NOTEBOOKS," a collection of Graham Stuart Thomas essays.
By the time I acquired it, I understood that his rose recommendations were pretty much useless for my climate.
What I didn't expect was that almost every essay was a hymn of praise for some "companion plant" or another -- without which any garden was simply "incomplete," or "lacking."

Only, darnit, EVERY ONE of those "must-haves" was something that wouldn't grow here worth a darn, or which, if planted here, turned into a world-devouring garden thug.

By the time I got 3/4 of the way through the book, I was ready to pitch the danged thing against a wall.

We in SoCal must read the good gentleman with a very, VERY large grain of salt.

Jeri

Can you imagine if he saw my roses next to jade plants and under a Eucalytptus? And the heavenly bamboo! How about the Abraham Darby in a wood box NEXT to a HD fence! Ahahaha pathetic...someday. A girl can dream!

*By the time I got 3/4 of the way through the book, I was ready to pitch the danged thing against a wall.* Right where Thomas would have wanted it, it was it a stone wall I presume? lol
I love the English gentlemen. What can we say. I can say I got you gals and guys and I can chortle and chuckle as I walk strait to the penstanmons and non-invasive salvias! lol Oh my.

Allison

(Meanwhile I can't even think about growing Penstemons because my climate is too wet for nearly all of them, and likewise for most Salvia.)

York Rose, it sounds like Mr. Thomas may have a companion plant for you! Jeri could probably pick some out from her Thomas essay book? :-)
You can grow Rhodies though, huh? I can only grow Camellias.

I just got Clair Martins' books (100 English and 100 Old Roses for the American Garden) in the mail. I'm saved! :-P
I just remembered I am going to a wedding in Pasadena at the Ambassador Mansion and Gardens. Bet they have roses. :-) (The climate is similar.)
Allison

Well, I doubt my climate is as wet as southern England's, and it certainly isn't as wet as western Oregon's! In an average year Boston gets about 40" of precipitation (some of which is snow, but most of which is rain). That's about 5" more than Seattle gets, but Seattle's atypical for the northwest because it sits in the rain shadow of the Olympic Peninsula. Only very rarely do we ever get a day like their notorious all day winter drizzles, and that almost never in winter. Usually in the Northeast, when it rains, it rains.

I also have to take his recommendations with a grain of salt! In my case I have to be very careful about making certain what he's recommending can stand my winter cold. Winters here are usually wet, but sometimes there's not all that much snow, and temperatures fluctuating between the mid-30's during the day and the upper teens at night, with wet ground, kill plants very well if they aren't adapted to that.

(Having said that, I definitely can grow {{gwi:318646}}, which he mentions in passing as a must-have flowering shrub, and I very much hope to someday!)

I can grow some rhododendrons (but no camellias :-( ), but they have to be hardy enough to tolerate this climate and that often limits the flower color choices to old-time "ironclad" cultivars such as Roseum elegans (which, frankly, I find both ubiquitous and also kind of ugly although it's the most tolerant rhody I know of). I could grow many of the hardier evergreen azaleas and most of the deciduous ones. I wish the deciduous ones were more popular. I think they're lovely! Unfortunately you hardly ever see them around people's homes here, and that's a shame!

(Having worked as a propagator at a wholesale azalea/rhododendron production nursery I realize one big reason they're less common is because they're more difficult to propagate, which makes the deciduous azaleas more expensive even though they're no more difficult for a homeowner to grow once planted, and actually can even be easier to grow. They also aren't suited to topiary pruning and that means most "landscapers" wreck them!)

All week drizzles in August and a side of hail! In Portland too! You garden in the drizzle, you walk the dog in the drizzle....but you get used to it.
I stand totally corrected. Ok, so Mr. Thomas might be able to help he Western Oregonians?
Yes Azaleas and Camellias are what is grown here instead of Rhodies. The industry of late is trying to say we can grow Rhodies buy supplying the garden centers with a few. I'm not going to be the guinea pig. I went with Camellias for the shady area I have. Nothing to fancy, yet. Have to focus on the roses, a lot of new ones this year. And the babies (from Ashdown) is a new experience for me also. I have to say they are looking very nice and getting the advice when choosing is great. Nicer than a box of roots and canes! But hey it got me goin'. I hope I keep myself from doing the bareroot thing again. (this year was my first, might be my last) Not very satisfying.
Allison

es Azaleas and Camellias are what is grown here instead of Rhodies.

*** Up here, in Alkaline Land, we can't even do much with those.
Very few camellias do well here, and almost no azaleas.
Thankfully, we CAN do fuchsias, and there are some of those that are mite-resistant, these days.

Jeri

The climate in most of England is "maritime", as are the nearby climates in northern France (across the Channel), Belgium, the Netherlands, northwestern Spain, northern Germany, Denmark, and parts of Norway and Sweden. That's not really surprising since this is northwestern Europe which abuts the northeastern Atlantic, and the northwestern part of the USA (& the western part of Canada) sits in a similar position with regards to the Pacific, which also has a maritime climate.

I can't help but think that Graham Thomas' gardening suggestions are going to be most suited to those who live along the western coast of North America, provided they live no further south than northern California (maybe San Francisco), and no further north than somewhere in British Columbia. The rest of us need to remember that when we read his advice & suggestions!

I recommend "Sally Holmes" if you want a climber that:

Is impervious to all rose diseases
Gets to be 15' tall or wide in mild climates
Has shiny green leaves and holds leaves almost all year
Flowers in big clusters
Has large single, creamy white flowers with hint of pink
Repeats all season in zone 9 from April through Oct.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sally Holmes

Hi Allison

Very interesting thread you have going. I keep thinking that you might have more in common with the House of Guillot in France than with Graham Stuart Thomas and David Austin.

When it comes to the climbing sports, some of them turned in to once bloomers. In warmer climates like southern Italy and France some have a second bloom (Peace, Souvenir de la Malainson). Here they are mostly once bloomers. I grow roses in a very different climate than you, cold and wet, but some of the climbing sport do well here; Climbing Mme Caroline Testout has a very good second bloom (that some years can be ruined by rain). Climbing Etoile de Hollande is rather good too.

When it comes to flower size and shape they are the same, shrub or bush, no bigger or better. Flower size has more to do with pruning, feeding, weather, heat, drought, early or late in the season.

Climbing sports are in a class of their own, with many common characteristics. A large part, if not most other modern climbers, are descendents of multiflora or wichuraiana climbers; pollinated with pernetianas, hybrid teas and floribundas.

If you want to try portlands Jacques Cartier does very well all summer in southern France, as long as it is fed and watered. It also does well in my garden, no blackspot or mildew. It should to just as well as Comte de Chambord.

When it comes to the one-caners, I recommend a bit of patience, and lots of organic fertilizer both solid and extra liquid. I really like those with seaweed and other stuff.

Some roses seam to to well just about every where; like Rosarium Uetersen might be a bit too pink, but it grows and flowers very well both in northern Europe and dry Australia.

My Sally Holmes (all 30 plus feet of her) is not so good on the rebloom. Sort of sporadic at best...some seasons better than others. But I wouldn't give her up for anything.

Elsie, Sally Homes is beautiful! I am almost there with the "barely any petal" blooms. I was in lala land with my David Austins, at first. I'm getting there. So beautiful!

Taoseeker, thank you for the info. and suggestions about the one caners. I need to get some seaweed fert. One thing I don't have. True, like I said up above I just want ones that are happy here. Who wants to watch a rose struggling? Roses/mother nature will come up with enough other issues to deal with. I have been wondering about a few of my Austins just not doing much. Well in my Clair Martin English Roses book I just got it says that is what some do for a couple years, not much! So it's not something I am doing, it's a waiting game. This year I have done a lot better with not over watering. Getting a feel for them. I'm learning. Time to go look up the roses suggested!

Allison