Ingrid,

Alas, I can give you no specific advice on purning P. & M. in California.

Perhaps the non- cultivar specific advice of D. A. himself and also of Rayford Redell, the original owner of "Garden Valley Ranch" in California may be of some assistance though. Both suggest pruning English Roses by at least one half. Redell in fact says prune them like a Hybrid Tea.

My own experience with most of the D. A. English roses in cold climate Canada backs this up. I am forced by climate to prune all of my Austin and Buck roses hard. Often, they freeze to the ground and yet come back very well in spring.

This is likely not the type of answer you are looking for, but it is a verification of the idea that it is OK to prune hard. If your plant is young, less than three seasons in the ground, then perhaps patience is in order. But if it is mature and not up to snuff, perhaps a hard pruning will make it put out some stronger growth.

By the bye, I am considering acquiring Potter and Moore after reading your post and looking him up on HMF. Just what I need, another rose acquisition! Too many roses, too little time and not enough space, LOL.

Cheers,

Rick

Rick, since my plant is still young I think I'm going to wait a little longer before I prune it hard. Based on your experience it does seem that hard pruning doesn't hurt most of them and I'll give that a try once the bush is more mature.

I'm just looking at a bouquet of roses on my coffee table which includes Potter and Moore, and to my eyes it's one of the must sumptuous of roses, with its many petals and lovely shade of pink. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as I have.

Ingrid

Hi Ingrid: I agree with Rick 100%. From my frequent visits of Cantigny rose park with over 1,000 roses for the past 20 years: hard-pruning, or dying back to the crown through a harsh winter, coupled with our 38" melted snow and constant-spring-rain, give the most glorious display of roses. So loaded that there were more blooms than leaves, and this was even during our 2004 drought.

In contrast, this past winter was our mildest in over a decade, no winter-die-back. The rose park was the worst that I had ever seen: roses so tall, rampant BS, and so few blooms.

From our past warm winter with my 15 Austins: Golden Celebration was green-to-the-tip, no die-back & huge size in early spring. I regret NOT chopping it by 1/3 like Krista does to her Austins ... she's the one with 80 to 90 blooms per Austin. Golden Cel. was stingy on me for the entire year, even MORE SO than last year, when I kept chopping down after each flush to 1.5 x 1.5'.

This past winter Wise Portia died to the crown from my experiment of dumping used lemons & oranges & grapefruit water to see if winter-canker has to do with soil pH. I thought it's dead for sure until it sprouted new shoots in June. Now it's a 1.5' x 1' plant, with at least 7 buds/blooms, in our 30 degrees weather ... compare that to one lousy bloom in 5' x 5' Golden Celebration. Wise Portia gave bigger blooms & more petals, despite dying to the crown from my crazy experiment in Feb. See the picture below:

Ingrid, my Golden Cel. and Wise Portia were band-size bought in June of last year. Even in its 1st year, Golden Cel. produced the biggest, and most petals blooms when pruned down 1/3 off after each flush. This second year I don't prune Golden Cel. at all, and I'm disappointed with less blooms, and blooms of smaller size and less petals.

Pruning does help to give bigger fruits and blooms. My summer job as a teenager in Michigan was to prune apples from trees, to produce bigger apples. That was the most fun job I ever had - for every 4 fruits on a stem, we pick 3 off and got paid for throwing fruits at each other.

Strawberryhill, thanks so much for telling me of your experiences. It's interesting that tea roses grow bigger and better every year, with more bloom, without pruning, while other roses are just the opposite. My Mutabilis, on the other hand, was severely pruned two years ago, and it's never been more big and beautiful. I know that Jeri says her Prospero (I hope I got that right) did not do well until she stopped pruning it. So much of it is trial and error, and so much depends on climate, soil and other sometimes unknowable factors. I think I will cut Potter and Moore way back in January and see what happens. I don't think it will kill it, and at least I'll find out whether it likes it or not.

Ingrid

Hi Ingrid: It's fun to experiment, I made plenty of mistakes, but I learned too. Prospero is a wimpy rose, best left alone. Mini-roses and own-root Hybrid Teas are wimpy in my zone 5a, if I prune them they become 1 foot tall appetizers for bunnies.

From experience I learn to be ruthless with aggressive octopussy Austins like Golden Celebration, Radio Times, and Evelyn.... if left-alone, unpruned, they are prone to diseases due to lack of water to support those massive octopus canes. I saw a previous poster posted a loaded tiny Golden Cel. (at least 30 blooms) with a praise "the bunnies ate it down in spring, but it came back glorious". I could not believe it was Golden Cel., I thought it's a tiny floribunda.

Prospero is from The Old Rose Hybrid group, Wise Portia and Golden Celebration are from the Leander Group (derived from modern roses such as floribundas). It's wise to tread lightly in pruning "Old Rose Hybrid Group", versus the Leander Group with aggressive growth that can take pruning really well. I don't know which group Potter & Moore falls in, but after reading David Austin's book "The English Roses", I become more aware of the differences between the 5 groups of Austin roses: Leander, Old Rose Hybrid, Hybrid Musk, species, and alba rose hybrids.

When to prune hard? when there's enough water to support growth. Roses die down to the crown in zone 5a (around Feb., where the temp dips to below -20 degrees), but there's 38" of melted snow and all-week long rain in spring to make them explode in blooms.

I checked on Potter and Moore to see which group it falls in. Based of the round-shape of the petals, most likely it's in Leander Group, thus safe to prune.

I checked on your description, Ingrid, of your Potter & Moore as "on a bush with rather long, thin canes which tend to bend over and hide the glorious flowers." It's typical of Leander Group which is described in Austin catalog as, "They usually form robust shrubs with arching growth... leans a little more towards the Modern Roses."

In contrast, Austin catalog describes their Old Rose Group as "Like the Old roses, shades of pink, crimson, and purple. They usually form small shrubs ... have a fragrance of the Old Rose type." That describes well wimpy Prospero and William Shakespeare 2000 (this stays tiny as own-root, it's suicidal to prune this "mini-rose" in my zone 5a).

I appreciate the additional information, strawberryhill. It makes sense that Austin roses with different rose backgrounds won't respond the same way to pruning. I've noticed that Cottage Rose does really poorly when not pruned, and in fact I don't believe I have any in the Old Rose Group which need to be left alone. I'm going to research all the Austins I have and that should be a good indicator of how to prune them.

Ingrid

I would love to hear some comments on Graham Thomas. I have a bush several years old, very healthy, that rarely blooms. I have tried cutting it in half this summer, it put back out taller canes with no blooms in sight. I asked Chamblees Rose Nursery what I could do - they suggested I hit it with Carl Pool BR 61 a little stronger than directions say. Knowing it was fall and I should begin to stop fertilizing, I did it anyway.At this point - if I mess the rose up, what have I lost?? I am estatic to see 3 canes with multiple buds. They may freeze but at least they are there! GT is an English Musk......the way I understand, it can either be a climber or a shrub. I dont care which - I just want blooms! Now, what should I do in spring? Cut back severely or just leave it alone [as I would a climber] and see if it will burst into bloom? All my other Austins do well - oh, with the exception of Golden Cel - another miniscule bloomer. I was trying to let it be a climber....but its pretty pathetic. Maybe I should cut it back in the spring? Would love to hear any suggestions! Never had this much trouble getting a rose to bloom!

I would guess that it is safe to prune. I'll just tell you what i do though. My Potter and Moore is 12 years old. I've never cut it by more than 1/3. It is shapely and upright. I think pruning in your zone and mine is different than zone 5. I would only prune it hard if it looked woebegotten.

I second Mendocino_rose's wise comment. There's no point in pruning hard unless there's plenty of water to regenerate new growth (like 38" of melted snow in zone 5a). Even Krista in NY, zone 5a, pruned by 1/3 only in her wet climate.

I was checking on Niels in Denmark's post on his Felicite Parmentier, an alba. He mentioned pruning by 1/3 after it's done with its ONCE-BLOOMING spring flush, and VERY lightly in early spring. The question is: how much of an once-blooming trait in an Austin hybrid to determine 1/3 pruning in early spring, or 1/3 pruning after a flush?

With regard to Alameda's question on pruning stingy Golden Celebration, let's check its heritage: it's a cross between Charles Austin and Abraham Darby (two giants). Niels wrote a funny story on how his neighbor built a scaffold around Charles Austin, like 10 feet tall with a few blooms on top ... If we trace its lineage further, it's Chaucer x Aloha, then cross with Aloha x Yellow Cushion. Aloha is a Hybrid tea climber, Yellow Cushion is a floribunda. It's the 1/4 bloodline of Chaucer (with once-blooming heritage) that makes Golden Cel. stingy. But Golden Cel also has 3/4 of modern roses that would take spring prune. It would be safe to prune it 1/3 after a flush, and also 1/3 early spring if we follow Niels' experience with his many Austins & OGRs.

With regard to Alameda's question on pruning Graham Thomas in early spring. Its parentage includes: Chaucer, Aloha, Iceberg, and unknown seedling. Chaucer makes it stingy, Iceberg gives it Robin Hood (hybrid musk) parentage. Since you already hard-pruned in the fall, it's best to prune only lightly in spring time, with deference to its Chaucer (once-blooming) heritage.

I appreciate Alameda's info. on soluble fertilizer Carl Pool BR 61, NPK of 9-58-8, in solving Graham Thomas' refusal to bloom. The Australian paper on using soluble phosphorus fertilizer in agriculture to solve phosphorus-tie-up in alkaline clay is correct. The Chicago Botanical Garden, pH of 7.4 alkaline clay, with over 5,000 bushes, recommended using a soluble 20-20-20 fertillizer on roses. Cantigny rose garden, with 1,200 roses, also uses a high phosphorus fertilizer, but not soluble, so it doesn't solve their 6 feet tall Austins with a few blooms on top. Both phosphorus and potassium are needed for best bloom production, with potassium deficient in most soils.

I was checking on lineage info. to solve my own question of: I chopped off Evelyn, Scepter'd Isle, and Charles Darwin down to 1/2 after their flush early August since I was sick of those messy octopus canes. Evelyn bloomed well in late fall, versus Scepter'd Isle and Charles Darwin retorted by being stingy.

Evelyn is a cross between Graham Thomas and Tamora. Thus Graham Thomas benefited from 1/3 AFTER a flush pruning, with its Chaucer and once-blooming heritage. In contrast, Scepter'd Isle is Wife of Bath x Heritage, further tracing reveals hybrid tea and floribunda parentage, thus best 1/3 off during early spring.

A good rule of thumb: Modern roses best pruned in early spring, and those with once-bloomer heritage best pruned after a flush.

I checked on spring pruning of Golden Cel. and Graham Thomas: it's OK to prune them hard in spring time, if there's plenty of water for blooming. JeffCat posted pictures of Graham Thomas as short bush like floribundas loaded with many blooms, at Columbus Park in Ohio, zone 5b in May. It looks much better as a short bush, than a sparse climber. See the link below of loaded Graham Thomas as really short bushes.

JeffCat also posted picture of Golden Celebration growing in a pot like a short bush, tons of blooms - more loaded than GC as climbers elsewhere. There's another picture of Golden Celebration absolutely loaded in Roses Gallery, growing in a pot, which convince me to prune it hard this coming spring.

Here is a link that might be useful: Graham Thomas as really short shrubs in zone 5b