Oddy, I don't think we are jumping to conclusions by diagnosing this as RRD. As far as I know, there is only one solution--dig it all out and burn it!

I'm not even aware of any way to stop it from happening. It comes from a mite that is blown hither and thither by the wind. Whether or not the mite finds your roses is purely the luck of the draw.

Maybe some others who know more about this problem will come along and offer some good advice, but regardless, you are going to have to get rid of those roses. I'm really sorry to have to say that--I know how heartbreaking it would be to have to dig up my roses.

Courage!

Kate

My best guess is Witch's Broom:

http://www.arhomeandgarden.org/plantoftheweek/articles/witches_broom_2-12-10.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch%27s_broom

John

oddy, I know very little about RRD.
However since it is carried by a mite, in your shoes (IF your weather is relatively cool) I think I'd try spraying my roses with Neem oil until they get the diseased plants out of there. Neem kills mites pretty quickly.

That's RRD. See how it looks much, much worse than the pictures on the other RRD thread? You'll want to get your neighbor's rose and all of the other infected roses out of there as soon as possible. Ask them to bag the plant first to keep the mites in and then dig it up.

My understanding is that the only insecticide that works on the mites is very difficult to get and there isn't a lot you can do for protection other than removing infected plants.

It is Rose Rosette Disease, which was called Witches' Broom several decades ago. That plant/those plants have been sick at least since spring.

Here's the link to my E-book, with a lot more information than the use of Neem, which won't do anything to cure the plants.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Rosette E-book

Thanks, everyone for the replies...my heart sank when I saw the symptoms on the rose bush next door. I had made plans for new plantings this Spring...but at this point, I think I will wait and watch.

@ Kate and Athenainwi. I have asked the HOA to remove these bushes, but needless to say, I was treated like I was making a mountain out of a molehill. I will keep at it...hopefully they will listen.

@John. Thanks for the links. The more I read, the more I wonder why there isn't an effective control as yet.

@Vissara. Thanks for the Neem oil suggestion. I have small kids, so am trying to see if there is a "safe" solution to all of this.

@ Ann. I am humbled and in awe of all your efforts in raising the awareness of this disease. I found Ch 12 especially useful. Thank you!

What if HOAs RRD roses came up missing while HOA wasn't looking and HOA got to met IDDUNNO? I say it this way cause in reality world if there not listening now there not going to listen later either. Your wasting your breath asking them to do something that they don't even care about
NEEM (an organic pesticide with fungicidal properties) isn't going to do a thing to a VIRUS named RRD. The one sure fire fix is:..DIG IT OUT and then....
BURN IT

immediately burn the affected one if you don't want see you garden is destroyed .... I think it should be caused by virus, Witch's broom may be the answer but we need more research :-s

Here is a link that might be useful: Software Development

I have an ongoing situation like this one with a commercial management company. There are landscape roses in the parking lot of a large shopping center (something large and bushy with small red flowers that look like Red Cascade), and a large percentage of them are infected with RRD. I have made phone call after phone call, and no one at the company seems to think that removing infected roses is all that important. If I were to go take care of it for them, I have no doubt that the response would be swift and would probably involve a police car.

Connie

I am aware RRD is caused by a virus. My understanding is that it is a virus carried by MITES. Neem does kill mites, and pretty quickly, while far from a cure it MIGHT reduce the chance of infection.

Oddly, I have chihuahuas (who don't have lot of body mass to adapt to chemicals)and asthma so I'm pretty careful what I use in the yard. Neem has given them no trouble nor had it affected my benefical insect (lady bugs, nemotodes, spiders) populations. I generally use it for fungus/aphid control.

Vissara,
Neem may kill "mites" but has it ever been proven to kill Eriophyid Mites, which are very different from the mites that bother most rosarians?
I ask because some comparitive acaricide tests showed that efficacy of acaricides varies greatly from mite to mite (eriophyid Mites) as well as from species to species within eriophyid mite genera

There really is a great difference between 'common' mites and eriophyids.

anntn6b

I'm not certain, again, I don't know much about RRD, I've never seen it here. I do know they use Neem on coconut plantations which I believe are bothered by a eriophyid mite.

"......botanicals based on combination of neem oil (Azadirachta indica) 2% and garlic (Allium cepa) and Azadirachtin, 0.004% (refs 19 and 22) has also given good results. Depending solely on the chemicals for the control of this mite is questionable since frequent applications are necessary, owing to the very short life cycle and the very high rate of multiplication of this pest. Moreover, spraying of the pesticide should be done from the top of the bunches such that the perianth area and the nuts are effectively drenched. Despite taking a lot of care the actual quantity of the chemical reaching the target site is less compared to the loss by drift to non-target area."

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

@ Vissara...my little one LOVES to pick roses off the bush, and so at this point, I am going to give the Neem a shot. Got nothing to loose.

@ Connie. Your response really made me laugh :-). It's frustrating though, to have this cloud looming and have no control over the outcome.

Don't we wish we could just spray the blooms and that would solve the problem.
But roses don't have the vascular system of coconuts (which are more corn-like in the location of the xylem and phloem bundles versus X and P that are around the canes.)

Then there are the mites that cause rusting (not rose rust at all) on citrus fruit.

The reason not to use Neem is that it probably will kill the spider mites and spider mites are predators of Eriophyid Mites.

In the e-book you'll find back in the bibliography a reference to an early paper on RRD by Staples, Allington and Viehmeyer. In it they discuss how hard it was to grow the potential vector mite on roses in laboratory isolation, because spider mites kept getting into their isolation chambers and killing off the eriophyid mites.

And that was done with the Phyllocoptes fructiphilus vector mite, so we know that spider mites eat them.

At one time antitranspirants were being tried. Is anyone familar with the conclusions?

Isn't it interesting when we have all the facts, not just those that match what we want them to.
Thanks Ann, I know you have the facts. All the other suggestions are wishful thinking and conjecture.
I'll remember Henry's if I ever grow coconuts. Perhaps soon, with global warming.
While we all would like to find a control, cure, or preventative for this disease, presently there are no organic or chemical controls or cures. Let's not fool ourselves and only make matters worse. The longer you fool around with unproven methods, the worse it'll get in your yard. Bag em, dig them out and destroy them.
I've done that plus those up wind from me. Luckily, I've had no repeat for three years now.

Everyone here should reread Karl's response, because there is a lot of wisdom in those few short paragraphs.

At this point, we cannot treat or prevent RRD with chemicals. Some have tried anti-transpirants to disrupt the mites, or miticides or Neem to try to kill the mites, and the disease still comes. Using chemicals like this makes us feel like we're doing something to combat the problem, but there is little evidence (that I have seen) that chemicals will prevent or treat RRD.

If we can find and destroy any infected wild (or commercially planted) roses in our area, this reduces amount of infection in the vicinity of our gardens. In my case, I have wild roses on a fence row a mile up the road from me that is in the final stages of dying from RRD ... no way I could do anything about that. I did, however, cut down and kill two infected wild roses by the road in front of my Post Office earlier this year.

We must all be familiar with what healthy growth looks like on our roses (because it varies among different rose classes) and we must become educated about RRD and its characteristics. When infected plants are found in our garden, we must dispose of them ... otherwise they may become a source of infection for the rest of our garden.

To my experience, RRD doesn't spread quickly or rampantly (like the flu in humans). It spreads through most gardens, one plant at a time. I saw an exception to this pattern this spring, in a relatively new garden of mostly HTs that had RRD on 6 roses in one area. The garden is in a sunny clearing surrounded by tall trees (mite drop area) and undoubtedly had a good source of infection in wild roses somewhere in the vicinity.

We have to be smart and realize that, at this point, there is no 'magic bullet' to keep RRD out of our gardens, no matter where in the country we live. Vigilance and education and action are our only proven weapons. Be aware of what your garden looks like. Know the characteristics of RRD. Take action ... remove the infected plant and try to find the source of the infection. Don't spray chemicals in the HOPE that it will help the problem. It may make you feel less helpless, but probably won't do anything for the RRD.

Another 2 cents,
Connie

The following statement was made: "Some have tried anti-transpirants to disrupt the mites, or miticides or Neem to try to kill the mites, and the disease still comes."

--------------------------------------------------

I am interested in knowing who specifically tried these methods and reported that the treated plants got RRD?

It would be nice if there were controlled scientific experiments on methods to fight RRD in roses. Unfortunately, roses are not a high priority in the plant scientific world that is mainly centered around food crops.

Thus, unless individual rose growers try possible methods (and report their results), there apears (to me) to be very little chance of advancement in preventive methods.

For many of my rose growing years, I have grown about 1000 roses in a no spray garden. I have lost about 5 roses to what I assumed to be RRD (some could have been weed killer as they were very close to property lines. I have saved about 5 others by cutting off the cane with symptons. Again some could of been weedkiller, but some were deep in my property.

Please remember that plants have immune systems. Even RMV type viruses have been shown to not be evenly distributed through the plant and to be affected by the immune system. I suggest cutting off the infected cane as close to the ground as possible. I have not tried this but if I have another case, I will probably treat with aspirin after cutting off the infected case.

Title: "Protective action of salicylic acid against bean yellow mosaic virus infection in Vicia faba leaves."
Authors: Radwan, Deya Eldeen Mohammed; Lu, Guoquan; Fayez, Khalaf Ali; Mahmoud, Sabry Younis.

Authors affiliation: College of Agriculture & Biotechnology, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou, Peop. Rep. China.

Published in: Journal of Plant Physiology (2008), 165(8), pages 845-857.

Abstract: "In this study, morphol., ultrastructural and physiol. modifications of faba bean (Vicia faba cv. Giza 461) leaves in response to bean yellow mosaic virus (BYMV) infection and salicylic acid (SA) treatments were examd. Under BYMV stress, leaves showed symptoms including severe mosaic, mottling, crinkling, size redn. and deformations. Three weeks after virus inoculation, photosynthetic rate, pigment contents and transpiration rate were significantly reduced in response to BYMV infection. Ultrastructural investigations of BYMV-infected leaves demonstrated that most chloroplasts with increased stromal area became spherical in shape and some lost their envelopes, either partially or totally. The internal structures of chloroplast, grana and thylakoids were dilated. Two kinds of inclusions were detected in BYMV-infected leaves: straight or slightly curved bands sometimes coiled or looped at the end, and electron opaque crystals with varied shapes. BYMV-infected cells showed lower chloroplast no. in comparison to the control. Spraying of SA on faba bean leaves helped to reduce or prevent the harmful effects produced after virus infection. Application of 100 .mu.M SA three days before inoculation restored the metab. of infected leaves to the levels of healthy controls. SA treatment improved plant health by increasing the photosynthesis rates, pigment contents and levels of other parameters studied similar to control values. Moreover; SA treatment increased plant resistance against BYMV. This was obsd. through induction of chloroplast no., redn. in percentage of infected plants, and decrease in disease severity and virus concn. of plants treated with SA prior to BYMV inoculation. Cells of SA-treated samples showed well-developed chloroplasts with many starch grains and well-organized cell organelles. The present results provide an overview of the neg. effects on faba bean leaves due to BYMV infection from physiol. and subcellular perspectives.
Also, a role of SA involved in induction of resistance against BYMV infection in bean plants is discussed."

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Title: Effects of DICER-like proteins 2, 3 and 4 on cucumber mosaic virus and tobacco mosaic virus infections in salicylic acid-treated plants.
Authors: Lewsey, Mathew G.; Carr, John P.

Authors affiliation: Department of Plant Sciences, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, UK.

Published in: Journal of General Virology (2009), volumn 90, Issue 12, pages 3010-3014.

Abstract: ""Salicylic acid (SA)-mediated resistance and RNA silencing are both important plant antiviral defense mechanisms. To investigate overlap between these resistance phenomena, we examd. the ability of mutant Arabidopsis thaliana plants lacking DICER-like (DCL) endoribonucleases 2, 3 and 4 to exhibit SA-induced defense. We found that in dcl2/3/4 triple mutant plants, treatment with exogenous SA stimulated resistance to two pos.-sense RNA viruses: cucumber mosaic virus and tobacco mosaic virus. We conclude that DCLs 2, 3 and 4, which are the predominant DCL endoribonucleases involved in silencing of pos.-sense RNA viruses, are not required for effective SA-induced resistance to these viruses. However, the findings do not exclude RNA silencing from making a contribution to SA-mediated resistance in wild-type plants."

-----------------------------------------------
There is a 2009 review in a very prestigious review journal on salicylic acid and plants, see link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to 2009 review

>Some have tried anti-transpirants to disrupt the mites, or miticides or Neem to try to kill the mites, and the disease still comes."

I am interested in knowing who specifically tried these methods and reported that the treated plants got RRD?

Hi Henry,

I thought I had posted a response in this thread earlier and only realized today that I hadn't when I found the temporary file I was using to write this response still on the computer's desktop. I'm sorry for the delay.

Anyway, I tried Wilt Pruf briefly in late May and again in mid June of this year. I only had enough Wilt Pruf for maybe 2/3 of the roses in May, but in June after the new Wilt Pruf purchase arrived I thoroughly gave them all a full shower of that anti-transpirant. For awhile, maybe three weeks, I didn't toss out any more plants to RRD (of the 48 that were sitting in pots all together with a few roses planted nearby), and perhaps if I'd tried reapplying it every couple of weeks, that would have worked. However, one variety--two plants--was horribly affected by the Wilt-Pruf treatment itself in June (and I think I recall that neither of those roses had gotten a full application of Wilt Pruf in May, if they had gotten any at all). The many other roses didn't show a very significantly bad response, but both General Gallienis reacted noticeably within half a day. One recovered, and the other one didn't. I am thinking that perhaps the really hot weather might have been the wrong circumstance in which to apply Wilt Pruf--that General Gallieni might have gotten by with Wilt Pruf applications in cooler weather. I don't really know why that variety was differentially affected though. Anyway, I quit trying to use Wilt Pruf regularly for protection during the summer and haven't gone back to using it, at least not at this point. By July I was back to having RRD-infected roses to toss out.

If anti-transpirants do work for RRD protective purposes, you'd have to remember to keep doing it regularly (and I've no idea of the definition of _regularly_ here), since I did a thorough job in June and by fairly early in July was having to toss plants again.

I did try Neem a few times, but nothing in a programmed way and nothing else I did worked either (pyrethrin). Just tossing the roses as soon as you see several symptoms seems the best bet, unless you've been keeping such a close eye that you know the disease symptoms are only a few days' old, in which case cutting out a cane is probably well worth a try.

I kind of think RRD is gone from this yard now, but with cooler weather here now, it's going to be difficult to know for sure. The three roses that have had a single RRD-diseased cane removed are going to have to spend the winter isolated in a pot until I can see what the new growth looks like next spring. Somewhere recently I read that sometimes a plant can already have RRD but can take up to a year to show symptoms.

Best wishes,
Mary

Please remember that a rose may be affected by Round-Up in the fall but not show any symptoms until the next spring.

Here is one explanation.

"Roses are also very sensitive to glyphosate (Roundup and many other trade names), which can be absorbed through the green stems in addition to the leaves. Glyphosate damage may appear at bud break the following spring after a summer or fall application that contacts leaves or stems; symptoms include a proliferation of small, narrow shoots and leaves."

From:

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7465.html

Here is a link that might be useful: link for above

The photos here show something that has nothing to do with glyphosate. This aberrant growth within rose sprays isn't a Hybrid Tea thing (at least I haven't seen it on HTs) but I've seen it on multiflora out in the very, very wild in TN and on some Orleans Rose-kin polyanthas in my own garden. Jean over in Nashville also had it in her garden - this symptom.
This is a symptom that may be more rose class specific. It is really ugly and very sad, because the blooms are more prolific, but there's so much wrong with them.

anntn6b, my statement was meant to be general as I wonder how many people throw out roses that have Round-Up damage and not RRD.

I think that UDavis should mention that Round-Up can travel down a treated weed into the roots. In heavily fertilized soil it can then leave the roots, travel through the soil, and be picked up by the roots of a nearby rose.

Henry,
You're lucky that winter kills many roses above the snow line in your part of the world. Dead canes don't transmit RRD downward.
I have seen too many times when people are told that their rose problem is herbicide damage and several years later they find that it wasn't herbicide, but was RRD that wiped out their gardens.
Herbicide's the easy answer, often offered by folks who have seldom seen herbicide damage and who have only read a page or two about RRD. Many of these folks don't live where RRD exists, but that doesn't stop their opinions from flying madly about.
The herbicide diagnosis is especially damaging in large public gardens, and esp. when the diagnosis is done by committee.

anntn6b, we do not seem to be on the same page. I do not suggest not doing anything and assuming it is herbicide damage. I recommend cutting the affected cane off at ground level.

My comments are directed at the people who see an "odd" cane and immediately remove the whole plant.

There still seem to be a lot of people that still believe that once a rose has a virus infection that it is uniformly distributed through the plant.

I doubt if any of my roses now (within say the last 10 years) died to the snow line. And I stopped using such things as rose cones many years ago. Of course I no longer buy the super tender virused hybrid tea roses that were being sold when I first started this hobby in the early 70s.

Are the mites on all infected plants or can they just infect the plant and then die off, perhaps in the cold? Are the infected plants contagious if there are no mites to spread the disease?

I am having a nasty war with RRD at the moment, but I've noticed that tho one has it, the one right next to it is fine. Years ago, before I ever knew what RRD is, I had a client who rose had it (in hind sight) and right beside it was another rose. For three years I kept cutting off the witches broom of the diseased one. Eventually it died, but the other rose never became infected. Any eplanations?

Since RRD has now been definitely determined to be a virus, I would expect that root to root grafting would spread it. I would not be surprised if transfer by pruning shears and transfer by branches rubbing against each other are not found in favorable conditions. (I thought that the abstract was vague in the statement: "Potential field alternative hosts were surveyed and several herbaceous hosts were inoculated mechanically and by grafting.") To me, mechanically normally means rubbing infected branches against the branches of a non infected plant or using pruning shears.

Here is a link that might be useful: link for quote

There now have been three published "mite count" papers and in all of them the mite counts on infected roses are much higher than on not-infected roses in the same area.
In all three papers (2 in Iowa one from counts in southernmost Indiana) mite populations surged in September.

From my observations about spread in Tennessee, I think we also get a minor surge in May when the temps are in that same range. We also get a fall surge that might be a bit later than the ones in Iowa. (And one year the Iowa popultions didn't surge; there's no explation for that.)

In gardens where there are predators of the eriophyid mites, there will be a lot fewer mites. The mites can overwinter in a stage that is 'dormant'.

The mechanical transmission was first tried in Missouri as a Masters Thesis work by Doderick and he didn't succeed. His was a physical injection for the most part.
I've seen one instance of my garden of transmission within the climber James Galway, where canes rubbed against each other. But most cutivated roses are pruned so that rubbing isn't happening.

Most pruning shears will seal the phloem cells that they cut through; that's good for transmission. Again, no one can prove a negative to shears cleanliness should be a habit we all have, because any disease transmission is theoretically possible and non-transmission is unprovable.

When Giolino's paper about root to root transmission came out, although the papers were about the 'known' rose viruses, I immediately thought of some garden instances, including spread of RRD within the huge bed of Knockouts at the Missouri Botanical Garden. I even called Dr. Giolino and we talked for almost an hour. After that, I started suggesting that severing roots around potentially infected roses might be a good idea. (This also applies when you see the paper about systemic infections of Downey Mildew in roses).

Henry, are those papers abstracts for a APS meeting? I hope they can get the papers published as right now there are thoughts that this is a phytoplasm, and a paper by Ahn, Kim, Kim and Gergerich (I may have the authors out of order) had a suggestion several years ago that RRD was in a proposed different group of viruses.

Yes, they are abstracts from the APS meeting. I tend to give the paper "more" credlence since it was co-authored from 2 major laboratories and the APS is a very significant place to present papers.