I don't know what perennials you've sown, but many do require some prolonged periods of cold strat and warmer temps to sprout so that may indicate why you haven't yet seen germination.

I also don't think that annual rudbeckia just germinated would look similar to plants germinated six months back. Your thoughts here don't make sense to me...please expand on them.

Whenever you sow in containers you have to transplant the seedlings. Maybe you're having other things on your mind that make you feel pressed for time. But aside from that, tranplanting doesn't set back WS seedlings...it's like giving them the greenlight to grow. In their containers they can become stunted if you leave them bound too long.

We have plenty of zone eight winter sowers who are satisfied...the method works like a charm in your zone. The trasnplanting is an important issue for you but WS transplant you will find to be remarkable easy. You don't have to thin, we transplant with a method called hunk-o-seedlings, and there's no hardening off to worry about...you can get all your seedlings into the ground while very small.

Hope this helps,

T

Here is a link that might be useful: Forum Database for Zone Eight

I'm new to wintersowing this year, so I'm not the expert that Trudi is. However, I am willing to share with you why this has been good for me. Maybe my thoughts will be useful for you.

1. Quantity. I have more than 10,000 square feet of beds I want to plant in. With original plan to sow under lights and in the basement it would have taken me 5 or 6 years to get all the perennials I have in just one year of winter sowing.

2. Space. It is much easier for me to find space for jugs on the patio or driveway than it is on the counter under lights.

3. Cold stratification. Research for a perennial that requires cold strat is what led me to the winter sowing forum to begin with. Heat and lights killed my first batch of Kniphofia seeds. My wintersown batch had 98% germination.

4. Timing. There simply isn't enough daylight in my day to direct sow everything I want. With winter sowing, I can sow at 2 a.m. if it suits me; my evening hours are devoted to my family. And while seedlings are "on hold" in jugs I can finish up new lasagna beds.

5. Endless possibilities. I am able to do so many more projects because I don't have the limits imposed by indoor sowing (Damping off, space, lights, temperature regulation, timing, etc.) For example, I was inspired this week to do a sunflower house for my child. I don't have to wait on good weather to sow the seeds, and I can get right on it while my enthusiasm is at its peak.

6. Seed protection. With winter sowing the seeds are protected from things like birds, wash outs, dried out soil, rodents, rot, etc. It's the best of both worlds for seeds--being protected while in their natural environment.

7. Camaraderie. I was welcomed into the forum in many ways, including offers for seeds. I learned about plants I'd never known and expanded the depth of my garden repertoire exponentially. And it's fun to hear how the experience of others compares to my own.

Hope this helps,
Seedmama

I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. And I have enjoyed the community here very much. It was all the enthusiasm that made me decide to wintersow this year for the first time in the first place. So please do understand that.

[I also don't think that annual rudbeckia just germinated would look similar to plants germinated six months back. Your thoughts here don't make sense to me...please expand on them.]

I'm not real sure where you got the annual rudbeckia from (the rudbeckia was listed as an example of the perennials I wintersowed that didn't sprout), but I'll try to expand more generally.

When I say direct-sowed, I mean directly into the garden, not indoors. My garden is not in an exposed location, and I've always had very good luck direct-sowing most of my hardy annuals (or letting them sow themselves from the previous year's plants). What I'm saying is that given my particular circumstances, the direct and/or self-sowed seedlings (from the same seed packets as the wintersowed plants) are a) larger and healthier, and b) don't have to be transplanted at all. So I'm sort of failing to see the advantage of wintersowing them (them being the hardy annuals I normally direct-sow).

I haven't wintersowed the kinds of annuals one normally buys as bedding plants (petunias and the like), so I don't know if it would be better to wintersow those, or not. I use so few of them that it's really not worth buying the seeds for them. Or paying the postage for the trades. I'd rather spend that money just buying the few I need.

As for the perennials, I have a *tiny* garden. I can only use at max three or four of any given variety of plant (I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've bought more than one of any perennial), and what I have done in the past when I need more than one is just buy a plant and take divisions or cuttings or whatever, which come along pretty quickly. For one plant, by the time I buy a packet of seeds it's not that much more to buy a plant I can make more plants from, and even if I fail at that I still have the one plant. I guess what I thought I was going to get from sowing my own perennial seeds was something else, I'm not sure what. Well, a couple of them are varieties I can't find locally as plants... And I will keep trying with those. Otherwise, there really is no advantage from my POV.

Also, all Zone 8s are not created equal (as in, my Zone 8 climate is about as much like Atlanta's Zone 8 as it is like Saskatchewan's Zone 3 [g]). I don't know if that makes any difference.

Does that make more sense? Again, I'm not saying it's not a terrific idea and it obviously works really well for a lot of people. I just have a feeling that it may not work all that well as a concept for me.

I remember as a teeny tiny tot an older "grandpa"-like man used to tell me "That's why God invented chocolate and vanilla." My toes don't feel stepped on and I respect that WS may not be right for you. At most, maybe only my reason #6 would apply to you, and based on your history of successful direct sowing, it sounds like it doesn't really apply either. I'm happy that you have something that works well for you.

I am pleased to see you bring up the issue of Zones. It gives me a chance to get on my soapbox, directed at no one in particular. Summarized in my lowly laymen's terms, at risk of stepping on a scientist's accuracy toes, Hardiness Zones are intended only to indicate the lowest average temperature for that zone. They are not intended to imply that gardening and all its climate related factors are the same. For example, Trudi and I are both in Zone 7, she on Long Island and I in Oklahoma. We can both expect average temperatures to go no lower than minus 10 or 15 degrees F or maybe it's 20, I can't remember. Therefore a perennial, tree or shrub that is Hardy to Zone 7 will (should) survive temps that drop to minus 10 or 15.
However, Hardiness Zones imply no similarities beyond that. Since I'm using Trudi as an example and know nothing about LI weather I'm going to make some stuff up for purposes of the example. Temperatures are routinely in the very high 90s and 100s for many, many, many days on end in Oklahoma. I hear David Letterman talking about New York weather and temperatures like that seem to be more newsworthy, less routine. My last frost date is April 15 and I'll bet Trudi's is different. I'm certain that our rainfall, snowfall, wind, soil and humidity are different. All of these things and more, just to make the wordy point that Hardiness Zones refer only to ability to survive certain low temperatures. Thanks again for the chance to get on my soapbox and I wish you the absolute very best with your gardening. If I knew how to make one of those cute little winky smiley faces, I'd insert it here.

I gotta agree with seedmama that you go with what works. I wish I could get satisfactory results direct sowing! My yard is on a slope, though, and my best gardens are rivers in the spring (like now ;(). If I direct sowed, all the seed would wash away. When I wintersow, I can hold the plants either to a respectable size to survive, or until the weather is stable enough to allow something tiny to stay put. I also like the control factor - I direct sow certain vegetables, and find they never come up quite in the straight line, with even spacing, that I planted them in. With plants, I place them where I want them.

But if I could get the results I wanted direct sowing, I would. Oh, okay, I'd still wintersow too... :)

You dint step on anyone's toes ;-) We all have ideas and opinons and some are more vocal than others.

My eyes can jump badly when I'm not wearing my glasses..so I put in the rudbeckia...it can be a hardy annual anyway so no biggee.

I have heard of direct sowing, I was not confused by what you wrote there. If you've got a protected garden you have an advantage that many of us do not...so if you can direct sow them do so. We all know our own gardens and comfort levels better than anyone else.

You seem to have answered your own questions about WS...mainly that it doesn't fit your needs for the size of your garden. And so it isn't for you ;-) WS is a germination method and an ideology that adapts to the user. Some people can't do the ideology and some people don't need an exponential amount of seedlings. With your protected garden direct seedings works for you, and with your limited space, shopping for plants works for you too.

Many of us understand about different climates across the country for different regions. Altitude, hunmidity (or lack of it) sandy soil or red clay, etc are different growing environments that some plants will thrive in--and conversely some will fail. We are a forum of people from many locations. You can WS succesfully in the PNW, it is still a temperate climate.

Good luck with your garden and your seeds.

SM, Long Island is very hot and VERY humid in the summer, especially August. We have the LI Sound to the north and the Atlantic to the south...I am four miles inland and don't get onshore breezes which can help dispell the mugginess. It's not unusual for me to shower three times a day just to better wash off the sweat. There is NOT ENOUGH baby powder in the world for us in August--the air is still, the nights thick with dampness and powdery mildew is everywhere. Yuccch.

Sounds like you have a great environment for outdoor direct sowing. Not here in Columbus. I can direct sow a few things, but weather, critters, etc., don't permit me to do it to the extent I want. Given your conditions, I would direct sow too. On the perennials though, I would be inclinded to winter sow them just for the contol issue if nothing else. Plus, I pot up extras for friends and family and find that would be more easily done with winter sowing.

T-
I'm glad to know more about your climate. I saw a comment from you elsewhere about baby powder and wondered if that's what you meant. It sounds very much like when I lived in Houston. Although in theory I officed at home, in reality I officed in my car. I couldn't shower during the day, but I carried two extra blouses with me every day. The mugginess often felt like I was walking through a bowl of warm potato soup.

Conversely, Oklahoma is very hot and very dry. Though the dry is tough to garden in, and moisturizer is my August mainstay, I must confess, I'll take hot and dry over hot and humid any day. And just like the song says, this is where the wind goes whipping down the plain....

Don't overestimate the temperature of the soil in your containers and give up prematurely...it's been a cool, rainy and wet Spring - not really Spring-like at all other than a mere handful of days. I've had perennials sitting at the seed leaf stage for a month. They look great, but tiny. Sunday April 1 we had rain mixed with snow and several periods of hail here. (I could almost hear my uncovered seedlings yelling Ouch Ouch Ouch, but I wasn't upset enough to run outside in my pajamas and throw myself over them)

Those bedding plants you are seeing in the nurseries are wearing signs warning people not to expect them to be frost proof or weather hardy yet....Bark and Garden Center in Olympia added to that warning last week that they were not replacing failed bedding/basket plants - too cold :)

I buy a few perennials each year - those I can't find seeds for, or those that have seeds very short viable i.e. epimedium, glaucidium etc. But for the most part, my perennials, shrubs, are sown outdoors anytime from October - February.

I rarely plant annuals so I don't sow those - but will occasionally pick up a 6-pack of impatiens or greenhouse started tomato plants. This coastal season is so cool/short I don't mind someone else giving me the jump-start there :) My nigella self sows so it doesn't count.

mmegaera, it's all a learning experience and you only need to continue what is fun for you. Your climate is appropriate for winter sowing, the rest of it (household demands, children etc) may not be. Or may not be now, but could be at a later date with a different garden.

Oops. I think the wind goes sweeping, not whipping. Let's blame it on low blood sugar, shall we?

Well, this is my first year just like you, and I have extremely enjoyed this experience. I have no room inside to grow anything. I have a 3 yr old and a 6 year old, and it has been so great finding a hobby that I can share with them. It does take a bit of time sowing seeds, and planting out, but I call that "my" time, when no one is allowed to bother me. Thanks to everyone here, I spent about $25 and have around 96 different kinds of seeds. Money is tight for us so that was a big plus. Also, out of my first batch of 40, I only had 6 that didn't sprout (or haven't yet) and even if I stopped now (I still have around 45 more to sow) I will have more than I can handle. I also love how friendly everyone here is, and any stupid question I asked, is answered quickly and positively. I love this group!!!

My first year wintersowing, too. I've had days when I questioned, and thought maybe this was better suited to the northern climes with lots more snow and cold than we have. And I'm not sure it's necessarily the most cost-effective or time-effective way to go about it, for me.
But here's why I loved it:
1. First and foremost, it kept me occupied through the long winter months when there was no gardening to do outside.
2. It was a new obsession that I could collect things for.
I even had my neighbors saving milkjugs for me.
3. If I leave ground bare for direct-sowing, it fills with weeds, and the birds get all the seeds.
4. I happen to have lots of spots to fill in my beds this year, so I was glad to have lots of sprouts.
5. I like growing varieties that I can't find at my local nursery.
6. The camaraderie around here is the greatest.
7. Just love checking my jugs and seeing what new little guys sprouted.

Carol

I will only speak to your perennials, because that's where most of my experience lies.

I think morz8's got it right. Soil temperature is almost everything in perennial germination. It's way too early, even in zone 8, to conclude your perennial seeds didn't sprout. They may not have sprouted yet, but you can't assume they won't next week, or next month.

In the flats I've sown so far (perennials) I probably have 10% germination, so far. A glance at my notes from the last few years tells me I can expect far more in the weeks to come. I have a few sprouts from a variety of Geranium which are over a month old, and got brand new sprouts in the same variety this week. I have flats of seeds out there which started a warm moist period indoors at the end of November, and went outdoors in late January. No sprouts yet, and I don't expect any until the soil re-warms to the temperature they like for germination.

My whole point here is USDA hardiness zones have very little to do with the germination of seeds. Zones are nothing more than an average of the coldest temperature an area gets each year. Seeds don't germinate on those coldest days. Seeds need a variety of things in order to germinate. This is due to the varied systems of dormancy they have. WS provides a method for defeating some of these dormancies. Once the dormancies are defeated, the seed still needs certain other ingredients before it can germinate. It must absorb (imbibe) water, it must have sufficient oxygen, and it's soil must be at an appropriate temperature for a certain length of time.

Don't even think of giving up on your perennial containers this early in the season. I potted up several 1-gallon jugs of Irises and Liatris yesterday, figuring it would be a safe Friday the 13th occupation. These jugs were sown last January, and had some sprouts last spring. They have 3 times as many sprouts now. Some of the seeds needed more of the ingredients for germination than their brothers and sisters.

Since I'm on a rant, let me address the quantity issue. I'm guilty of sowing too many seeds for my space, I admit it. I do it with a purpose, however. Sow 12 seeds of the same plant, and get 8-10 seedlings which survive to a planting/potting stage. Look closely at those survivors, and you'll find startling differences between them. Foliage structure, texture and color will vary greatly. I like that. I like to pick from several different options when selecting a plant for a display bed. The ones unselected either remain in a nursery bed, or, when I need room, go to the compost bin.

Other plants, like shrubs, need so long to reach maturity, I like having many of them in reserve. I have a couple dozen Manchurian Tree Lilac seedlings out there in a nursery bed right now. Half are 2 years old, and half are from last year. Today, there isn't much difference between them, size-wise. Both generations are about 3" tall, single stems in small plant bands or pots. The older ones are showing signs of more leaf development this spring than the yearlings, but they are all still at least 3 years away from attaining display size. When they get there, I may have room for 2 or 3 of them in my garden. I'll select the best of the lot, and deal with the rest.

Finally, grasses. Ornamental grasses are my passion. I already have far more plants than I can ever use in my garden, but from now until early summer, I'll add over a thousand more to my herd. I'll buy some of them, because not all varieties can be successfully started from seed, but most will be grown from seed. For some varieties, I'll start 100+ plants from individual seeds, and grow them on to a point where I can select those with the best characteristics of the species. Along the way, I'll watch for sports and mutants which display something new and different. Other gardeners do this with other types of plants. Roses, Daylilys, etc. all have their fanciers. They grow far more than they can ever use, and piddle around with hand pollination and other methods of hybridizing, in search of a unique plant. It's another good reason to grow more plants than you actually need.

mmegeara: I just posted in another thread about several perennial jugs that have just 2 or 3 seedlings. These popped several weeks ago when it was unusually warm. These seedlings don't appear to be growing, they're tiny, but green and healthy looking. The weather has since been extrememly cold, cloudy, and wet. I am still hopeful of seeing more germination when the weather warms. Our warm spell was warm enough but I don't think it lasted long enough, for the seeds to all sprout. I'm still hopeful for more in those jugs when it gets warm and stays warm. Since these seedlings are so small I don't think they'll need to even be potted up for a good while yet, so I plant to just watch hopefully and wait for more babies to pop.

How warm has your weather been, and has it been consistent? My son lives in Seattle so I sort of pay attention to his weather sometimes. I know that Seattle had a short hot spell but I don't think it's been consistently warm for any length of time. They don't seem to get the vast swings in temperature that we get here, but even 50 degree weather is not that warm for germination especially with the rainy, cloudy weather that Seattle is famous for. As Donn said all seeds need a specific soil temp to germinate, and if the soil in your containers hits that temp it might need to stay at that temp for a while before the babies pop.

I don't know where you live, but if your weather has been like that- moderate temps and constant clouds, give those seeds some time and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Karen

Hello mmegaera,

Just back from a vacation in Texas, where Zone 9 is definitely nothing like Zone 9 here...

Re direct sowing vs. winter sowing and propagating from cuttings:

I enjoy the greater control that winter sowing gives over direct sowing, both in terms of plant placement in the garden and protection from slugs/snails in the early going. Also, I grow mostly perennials that can't be found in garden centers here and generally hold them over until they are a good size. -I.e., I have some Korean beauty berry shrubs that were started in 2005 that will get planted out this spring.

Sometimes, I w.s. annuals hoping that once they are in the garden, they will self-sow and become de facto perennials. This has worked out particularly well with Impatiens balfourii, Impatiens scabrida, Pericallis x hybrida... I also direct sow things that I know are sure-fire for me, like Sweet Alyssum and Nasturtiums.

I love to start things from cuttings (outdoors, using the same paper pots in a baggie technique that I use for winter sowing.) However, I can't always get my hands on the plant I want to start. For example, I really, really wanted to grow some Spilanthes, 'Eyeball Plant', for my twin nephews. This is a plant that I have never seen in person and nobody that I know has ever heard of, so seeds were the way to go...

My garden is pretty small, so I really don't need a lot of plants, but I enjoy starting from seed so much, that I just keep on. I'm at the point where I rip out existing plants so that the new ones can go in! I also cull my seedlings, selecting for the most vigorous.

All in all, winter sowing has been very successful for me in this mild winter climate. I have learned to play the calendar, and I think that helps a lot. I research everything I start and make sure to get the things that demand cold stratification out first to take advantage of our short cold period.

Anyway, if direct sowing gives you what you need, that is a wonderful thing!

Regards,
Susan

P.S. Just read your post on the other thread about knowing our librarian; how amazing is that! -Our new library is way cool btw.

Seedmama, I lived in Oklahoma City for 8 years. Whipping, shrieking and drying out everything that desires to live - down the plain is probably more correct. When I moved there in 1989, you would not believe how many of my friends called and sang that song on my voice mail. Glad to be back in Ohio. O-H I-O!

Hi, this is my first year wintersowing even though I was
skeptical (sorry). I have grown seed indoors in limited space and had success with some and some didn't make it.
This year I was reading the posting on this forum and since
I have a grocery bag full of seeds that I have had for years I thought I would try it. I had nothing to lose.
I have delphinium, columbine, foxglove, coreopsis, oriental poppy,lupine, penstemon, and verbascum. Most have sprouted, but there are some that haven't. I started planting in January. They have been outisde except after they sprouted and it looked like a really cold night I would bring them in - I still had a hard time letting them grow in the cold. But, I have been letting them stay out even with the rain we have been having with the tops off. They need transplanted soon and I hope to do that this week. I know you are colder than the Umpqua Valley in Oregon, and maybe you have seeds that just need a bit more time til it warms a bit where you are. I was surprised to see my first green sprouts but I am already planning on next winter. I have most in aluminum lasagne pans since I wasn't prepared with milk jugs, but I buy bottled water so those containers work. I wouldn't plant in the aluminum pans again, they aren't deep enough and once they start sprouting even with labels they are crowding each other and is going to be hard to tell what is what, especially since there are 4 kinds of lupine and 3 of delphinium and columbine. Please don't be discouraged. Karan

See, this is how I got seduced into wintersowing in the first place [g]. All these wonderful people full of lovely ideas and enthusiasm. So you have no one to blame but yourselves...

Just so you can see exactly how tiny a garden we're talking about here:

{{gwi:376951}}
is my back flower bed.

{{gwi:376953}}
is my front flower bed. These pictures were taken about three weeks ago. I also have two smaller shady beds, which are on either side of my patio in back (6'x8' and 3'x8', roughly). And that is the extent of my outdoor garden space.

Oh, and here's a picture of my wintersowing efforts, or at least the jugs enclosing them [g]:
{{gwi:376955}}At any rate, I don't think I'm going to wintersow hardy annuals anymore. I do think I will wintersow the occasional perennial I can't find as a plant locally, just for the heck of it.

Can I stay anyway? Pretty please?

Ws is great for me, I need mass amounts to fill the yard. I have a 1/2 acre on the house we bought this November.
Former owner did a wonderful job with foundation plants and shrubs but the rest of the yard is pretty naked.
The old green shed is in the process of being torn down, giving me an area for sitting and container plants.
{{gwi:376957}}
The apple tree by the swing is starting to bloom and I have many many plans for this area. I already pulled out the rug juniper. Here is about half of my WS containers, the others are on the patio.
{{gwi:376964}}
The front yard is also pretty big with many possibilities. Next year I will have to find cash instead of moths in my wallet for the Austin roses I want there.

mmegaera: Definitely stick around, and don't dump those jugs. You're probably going to get some sprouts.

Karen

Wow. Look at all that space [sigh]. And I can't even dig up the grass in front of my back bed because that's part of the condo association common area.

Something else this forum did for me was to get me interested in seed-sowing in general again, and my one sunny windowsill is full of mimulus, thunbergia, lobelia, salpiglossis, and three morning glory plants that I will string bird netting on the fence for in a couple of weeks.

No, it's not been warm here yet this spring except for Thursday and Friday of last week, when we broke a couple of high temperature records for those dates (it actually got up into the seventies). The thing about that is, though, even in high summer our night temps rarely get much past the mid-sixties (over eighty here is *hot*, and we can go whole summers without getting over ninety).

And, yes, seedmama, boy, do I hear you about the whole zone thing. Which is why I adore the Sunset Western Garden Book. It breaks west of the Rockies down into 24 climate zones, and *those* zones make sense. I wish they'd do that for all of the rest of you...

Condo Associations. Blecchhh!

My former house had a postage stamp yard and 70% was in full or part shade. Was tough to garden. So I understand completely.

Condos are a tradeoff. I am a single woman who wants to own her own home, but doesn't want to get involved in a lot of maintenance about which I am clueless. So it's really not a bad deal for me. That said, I probably would have taken the jump had I had enough money to buy and pay people to help me maintain a single-family home in this area, but I don't. It's still a heck of a lot better than an apartment [g].

mmegaera I feel for you I live in a condo too but fortunately the association is a little lax. Our soil is real bad, so over the last few years I've put in retaining walls with much better soil. Every year those walls get a little bigger and I plant a little more. As for WSing I love it. My verbena just started to come up so now everything is sprouting except my milkweed. The milkweed seeds were from my plant & I didn't take the best care of them, so it wouldn't surprise me if they never come up. I have Asters inside and out and the one's that I WSed look much better then the ones I grew inside they are kind of limp and leggy. My ones outside are already over an inch high so I can only imagine how big they'll be when it's time to plant them. Next year I'm going to do everything that I can outside it will be the 1st time I look forward to January!