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chazparas

buzzing around the sunroom....

chazparas
13 years ago

Hi all,

Been super busy with classes lately here, hoping you are all in good health!

Heres an update on the neem treatment for bulb fly in my papillio. DID NOT WORK!!!!

I'm late for class this morning because I heard some buzzing in the sunroom, thinking it was a wasp or bee I went in to let it out or deal with it another way...

Anyway buzzing around the room was a narcissus fly, I missed a papillio bulb offset that was below a mother bulb. So I caught the fly in a bug vacum (gift from sister in law for catching and releasing wasps in the house, long story there) and decided to look at the bulbs. Well even though they are sprouting offsets I had to open them up as I can't chance any more hatching... These pictures are what I found. First a pupa in one bulb, with it an empty casing I assume from the fly I caught, then the fly. And finally the offsets, I hope they live.

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Comments (27)

  • dablo93
    13 years ago

    sorry to hear, I found this stupid insects also in my bulbs last year, they were only in the bulbs with had also the Red Bltoch and i see some red spots in your bulb, I think thats the Red blotch..
    My Papilio did grow very well last year, made a huge bulb, but in autumn, all the leaves were dead so i took out the bulb and i thought that the bulb just was 'sleeping', but it was soft and I saw 5 from that worms or so in my bulbs.. now its dead.

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Dablo,
    The redspots on this bubl are actually damage from the maggot and from the neem oil I injected into the bulb earlier after I realized that there was a maggot inside. Luckily there is no redspot disease!
    I think the neem oil I injected into the bulb encouraged the bulb to produce the offsets, at least I hope one or two will survive.

  • elizabeth_jb
    13 years ago

    Chaz,

    Thanks for the pictures. I have never seen those critters before, but I am keeping an eye out for any sign of Spanish Moth Caterpillars. I had them for the first time last year.

    Your cut bulbs still have portions of basil plate, so you can dry them off, cut into thinner slicer to check for more maggots, dust with Captan then plant in damp, well dry pottting mix.

    This should produce more little bulblets for you.

    Good Luck and let us know how it goes for you!!!

  • Noni Morrison
    13 years ago

    Chaz, how heart breaking this discovery must have been! I am on the alert but have not seen them among my daffodils yet this season. Of course the ones they were infesting last year are all gone from my collection. It seems to be most of my pink daffodils. Amazingly some of the other colors seems to be just as thick as usual. We are pretty darned cold here except for the one day that hit 79.6 degrees. I want to put my amaryllis out into their summer quarters if it would just warm up reliably! Next week should be our last frost but I think I will give it at lest 2 more weeks this year. THen , how to get all 90 bulbs planted and covered without risking the darn bugs! Maybe I will have to plant them and seal the bed with insect cloth in sections.

    Or you could bring your bug vacuum and stand guard while I finish the job?

  • mariava7
    13 years ago

    OMG Chaz! You got me 'whacking' around the house today with my fly swatter! LOL!

    The kids have been leaving the doors open last week when the weather was warmer and apparently some flies got to come in. I have no idea which fly is which. They seem to all look alike and only vary in size.

    All of the ammies are still staying indoors most of the time. I did get to bring out some last week and had to bring them in this weekend. Temp went down 30s. Soon they will be brought outside exposed to Mother nature's 'culprits'. I know we have these NBF here in VA. They got some of my seedlings last year.

    Would a systemic insecticide really take care of them?

    I have read somewhere that these maggots have or release this protective fluid around them while they are in this dormant stage (staying in an upward position). And if I remember right, this fluid also 'seals' the wounds of the bulb inside thus it does not rot. One reason why we do not notice that there are maggots inside the bulb. Bulb stays firm but leaf growth (center) is damaged/eaten.

    Somebody please correct me if I am wrong in undertstanding what I read.

    My dearest Papilio did not leaf out anymore but the bulb is as firm as can be. It's bulblets are growing like crazy though. Everytime I clean it's bulb of dried scale reminds me of someday, this bulb will be gone. It's very sad for this Papilio has given me so much joy.

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Elizabeth, Liza, Maria,
    I am saving these pieces and drying them off now, some even have roots so I hope they'll survive.
    Maria you can't miss these flys they sound and look like bees. Hairy, brown to black, and buzz very loudly when they're inside the house!!!
    You won't see an exit hole as it appears they've exited through the bottom or squeezed their way through the top between the leaves. That bulb was still solid! In the basal plate of the bulb and there was a hole about 1/8th of an inch in diameter. They even moved from one bulb to another. Out of that beautiful cluster of papilios I had there are now only 3 immature bulbs that may flower in a year or two. It is so frustrating as you all can imagine.

    Maria, I would separate that papilio from the cluster and check the basal plate for the hole. If it's not sprouting it's dormant or infected.

    Liza, everyone laughs at me when I walk around with the bug vac. I have a very unrealistic fear of wasps, they can send me running like a 4 year old screams and all! Since I moved up here to New England I've seen more varieties of wasp than I have ever noticed anywhere in the world I've been!!!! Just waiting for these killer hornets to show up, then I'll be living in the screen protection I need to build for my Hipps! LOL

  • kitty747
    13 years ago

    Chaz, this is just to let you know that I appreciate your efforts in educating all of us. That thing looks absolutely disgusting! And I'm sooooo sorry that you had to go through all this. I want to cry when I lose something important, so understand how you must feel. The daffodils are just starting to bloom outside (and I have thousands). Now I'm going to be going out there and examining them. Thanks!

  • mariava7
    13 years ago

    Chaz...I have decided to let this Papilio mother bulb 'rest in peace'. :-) It has like 8 bulblets attached to it. Disturbing the whole root system would definitely stress the babies. Now 'mommy' would not like that! LOL!
    I just went ahead and bought 3 more Papilios this season.

    NBF lay their eggs on the leaf axils (again if I remember right). Once they eggs hatch, the larva would travel down the bulb and enter the bulb through the basal plate. It would eat and eat and eat until it fattens up just like the ones pictured above. And then goes in a dormant stage. So most of the time, you will not see the hole/entrance. Most common evidence of NBF in your bulb would be the dropping/loosing of leaves specially the center ones.

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    So the hole in the basal plate is where they entered, hmmm. They must be squeezing their fat little bodies up through the center of the neck, just caught another in the sunroom. I've got to read up on treatments now, and monitor that room constantly to catch any other little monsters that escaped the Neem Treatments. UGHHH,
    Maria, the photos you posted of your papillio and the leaf disintegration looked very much like mine. I don't know that I'd chance losing any more babies! I'm hoping that I can save 3 babies out of 8 now!

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago

    I, too, am very sorry to hear that the Neem treatment was unsuccessful... losing something with sentimental value is very difficult.

    The remnants of the bulb look ripe for chipping, though... I'm wondering if moist sand might be a good medium choice for trying to regrow the sections... I've read in a lot of books that growers use sand. In any case, bottom heat might help them to grow more roots faster...

    I wish you luck with keeping the babies and the sections going... and I thank you for sharing your experience with everyone... it's most helpful.

    My new Papilio will remain indoors with Minerva this season... I'm not taking any chances with either bulb!

  • paxfleur
    13 years ago

    Awww Chaz, sorry for your loss. Those little maggots are dis-gust-ing! Make sure you catch all those evil adults before they start breeding/laying on your Aphrodite/Hercules/Piccolo/Zombie/Minerva/etc. =)

    Wait, so just for clarification: The adult flies lay eggs ON the leaves? If so, how long does it take for the eggs to catch? Are the eggs visible? (Like snail eggs?) I don't see why these flies are such problems if the eggs are laid on the leaves? That would mean all we had to do was do weekly spraying of insecticides (to kill the eggs) and keep a close eye on the leaves....right?

  • Noni Morrison
    13 years ago

    Here is a good article on Narcissus fly infestation.

    http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusBulbFly

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Great article Liza,thank you so much.
    Pax, Believe me I'll be looking for something to spray on the leaves from now on. I still don't think I'll put them outside unprotected. I'm searchng the sunroom daily for new adults.
    Well, I'm off to class/clinical now. Have a fantastic weekend all!
    Chaz

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago

    I recently found a narcissus fly sitting on one of the tulips in the bulb bed... I crushed the thing, but I'm sure he has friends out there somewhere... I picked up a large container of systemic fertilizer plus insecticide granules, and that will be applied at intervals throughout the season!

  • rjm710
    13 years ago

    I had about 17 bulbs outside last year, and have found 3 infested with the fly. There's been 5 flies hatched out in my house this winter, but I think I got them all. I'm keeping all of my bulbs inside until July this year (they'd usually be out by now). Stay vigilant, everyone!

  • lora_in
    13 years ago

    Oh Chaz, I'm so sorry the neem didn't work : (

    The papilio pieces should sprout a bountiful pot full of babies for you but the wait just stinks.

    BTW, how powerful is that bug vacumm ? Ya know, I have this thing about spiders......

    Maria, the only hope is to poison the nasty little critters while they are eating, hence the systemics. If I had the horrid little flies here I would try a controlled experiment to see what is most effective. I wonder if the adults could be attracted to a sticky card?
    Lora

  • mariava7
    13 years ago

    Chaz...Have you received Mommy Minerva yet?

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago

    I have a thing about spiders, too, Lora! They scare the heck out of me! And living out in the country, they seem to be bigger and uglier! I usually leave them be if they're in the gardens... I know they hunt and trap and eat the bad bugs... but indoors, they gotta go! I will not share my living quarters with spiders of any kind!

    I'm hoping that the use of a systemic insecticide will deter any narcissus flies from burrowing into the bulbs... I especially don't want them destroying my hippis, but I don't want to lose any other bulbs outdoors, either!

  • lora_in
    13 years ago

    Hey Jodi,
    The only spiders we mess with outside are the orb weavers that spin webs across the path out the back door : O
    Inside is another matter, I turn into a shrieking girly girl about the furry, teacup size bathroom invaders that show up every Fall!!! I wiil actually go to a neighbors house to use their facilities if no one is around to evict the evil creature,lol!

    About the NBF, I wonder if they are selective about the narcissus varities they attack? I tend the old plantings at our local cemetary & have never seen any problem with the narcissus there. Same with the iris, we have iris borers aplenty here & they never touch the "antique" varities. Lora

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago

    I don't blame you one bit, Lora! We have these hideous gray barn spiders that get rather large... they hang in doorways, and I won't go through the door unless Larry knocks them down and kills them! I also dislike the giant banana spiders that hang out in the fields... the big yellow and black ones! My skin is crawling just thinking about them! You haven't heard ear-piercing until you've heard me scream at being surprised by a spider! ((Shudder))

    I think there's something to be said for the hardiness and immunity of the old garden varieties of plants... I've said it before, and I'll say it again... growers and plant breeders tend to produce plants nowadays aimed at flower color, size and shape... and they neglect the "big picture", which includes keeping all the good characteristics, such as hardiness, immunity... while breeding toward those more pleasing colors and sizes, etc...

    As a canine breeder, I know how important it is to keep that "big picture" in mind when breeding... you can't breed successfully with tunnel vision. Take CHD, for instance... there's a lot of hype about breeding dogs with good hips, but a breeder can't concentrate on that one thing and forget that there are many other genetic characteristics that are important if you want to maintain the integrity of the "total package"! Incidentally, there are no genetic markers for CHD, so breeding good hips is not much more than a crap shoot. Sometimes, it's more prudent to sacrifice one thing for the good of the many... I'd rather have a dog with mediocre hips that had the best of everything else, like stability, temperament, health...

    The bottom line is... it's all about the money. It's about breeding that eye-catching flower so the customer can't resist purchasing it... and if it's not hardy, that customer will most likely spend more money next season to obtain another plant... and that plant will be prettier and less hardy with a weaker immune system, and the purchasing will pyramid from there, and the breeder will have a full pocket. Meanwhile, the real gardener will keep fighting disease and insects, and wonder why Gramma's Daffodils are stronger than ever and just keep growing...

    Personally, I love heirloom plants... I think they're beautiful, and they definitely have a place in my garden!

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Hellos all, I'm back!
    Had my weekend clinicals and then a trip up to Maine, gorgeous ocean views up north!
    Anyway, I'm not all that scared of spiders although I do get a bit creeped out if they touch me...Wasps on the otherhand, this middle aged man screams like a 5 year old girl if one gets too close!!!
    The bug vac is pretty strong as long as the battery is new, but with any insect that grabs onto a rough surface or a screen they take a little nudging to get off. Luckily this bug vac has a little bristle attachment on it. I actually do let the wasps go later in the season, but now I know I'm catching queens and don't want them nesting anywhere around. Last year I had 8 paperwasp nests removed from under the rim of an above ground pool. These gals get very protective of the nest once there are more than 4 or 5 of them on it. I hate killing anything, but can't take a chance with these gals!

    Anyway, I get back from Maine this afternoon, come into the house and my neighbor rings the bell with 2 packages...Some beautiful pussywillow cuttings, lilac, horsetail reed, and one of the most beautiful Minerva bulbs I've ever seen! Liza, Maria, Thank you both so much!!!!
    Chaz

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago

    The first wasp of the season came inside and spent the better part of yesterday buzzing around my little jungle... I couldn't swat it because that smart little bugger was hiding out amongst my hippis! I was afraid if damaging leaves if I swatted! But, I eventually got him!

    I use a regular shop-vac to suck up all those little orange beetles that come out this time of year... they're everywhere, it seems! They're disguised as ladybugs, sort of, but they bite and are a big nuisance! Later in the season, it'll be mass amounts of box-elder bugs crawling everywhere!

    Bees and wasps don't scare me... but I sure don't want to be stung! Nests must be removed and destroyed!

    Chaz, you must share photos of the giant Minerva bulb... it's my very favorite of all Hippis! If you get a chance, that is!

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Jodi,
    Here is the giant Minerva, I can't wait to pot this up! Only problem is going to be keeping the blooms going as the sunroom now reaches 90 plus degrees during the day, we're having the same weather you are! I may have to move it to the main part of the house to keep the blooms cool enough to last a bit.
    minerva bulb next to hercules flower
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    For size comparison, next to a 2 liter bottle of pop
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    I also found my Ruby Meyer blooming in the basement window, just put some of it's pollen on a Hercules, think it'll work?
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    Yes, those are figs and a plumeria coming out of dormancy next to ruby.

  • Noni Morrison
    13 years ago

    That Ruby Meyer is a spendid thing! It must be the time the cybisters like because my La Paz is in full spate too! Sure wish my Ruby Meyer had been healthy. I had to throw it away after cleaning it and coddling it all winter, it jsut did not have anything left to grow roots out of. WIll definitely need a Ruby next year!

    I hope your cross with Hercules works..that should produce some interesting off spring!

  • jodik_gw
    13 years ago

    Your Minerva bulb is bigger than mine! I thought mine was huge, being about 8 years old and steadily growing, but yours is a monster! I can't wait to see the blooms produced by that baby! That's a special bulb!

    Ruby Meyer must be added to my wish list! It's positively gorgeous! I hope your cross works, but I wouldn't put money on it... all of my cybister crosses failed this year. It would be wonderful if it did work, though! Can you imagine what the offspring would look like?! How cool!

    Chaz, I think I might need lessons in how to grow Plumeria... my cutting has been leafing out for a while now, although it did seem to rest during part of the winter. I wasn't aware they had a dormant period... is it required? Or do they simply grow and rest by the shortening and lengthening days? I have a little stick of Aztec Gold... I'm not sure it's big enough to bloom this year, but I'm hopeful.

    Thanks for sharing those photos! I just love your Minerva!

  • kitty747
    13 years ago

    Chaz, Just love your Ruby Meyer. That's one that is right up my alley. I have a Hercules, but it's fairly new and just getting started. Was one I had forgotten I ordered, until it arrived! Years ago (2000) I also had a Minerva. Since I have a bunch of those bulbs (the ones that rotted from the NJ rains) I may still have it. I'm tell you, it's like Christmas morning when one of these old ones blooms. Please see my newer post on trying to ID three of these.

  • chazparas
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Jodi,
    In our climate the plummies go outside for the summer as soon as nights stay above 55F. I bring them in when the nights start to drop below 55 in the fall. My oldest is a white from 1992 and is about 6 ft tall, would have been a lot taller but it died back to the roots once and I tossed it on the compost pile, it came back and surprised me so I took it back in. They go into the basement near an east facing window, some drop leaves others do not. I have a singapore dwarf that is evergreen, and a rainbow lei that kept it's leaves this past witner. I reduce watering adn watch for stem/trunk shrinking, if they shrink I water. Thats about it. Because my summers are so short now, they tend to bloom everyother year. I'm not sure about the aztec gold, but I may be receiving one this year so we'll compare notes!
    I'm kinda dreaming of the hercules ruby meyer cross, wouldn't that be beautiful? I'm not sure it'll work but it's worth a try.

    Kitty, Jodi, I've gotta tell ya. I like the ruby meyer but it's not one of my favorites, same for emerald. I guess I'm just not a cybister type of guy. They are interesting, but nothing like the big bold ones I love so much. I just love a flower that screams at me when I walk into it's space!

    Back to class so bye for now.

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