SB,

Just an idea for you as a stricken moth person...

Not a lot of hobby Lepidopterists raise moths, for the reasons we suggested on the butterfly/moth poll thread. But a lot of professional and serious amature Lepidopterists do. So the best way to get breeding stock if you can't travel to the places where a species of moth lives that you want to rear is to trade livestock with folks who can travel to those places, or better yet lives at those places.

Easiest way to find out who these folks are and get to know them is to join an international oganization that these professionals and amatures belong to. A good choice would be The Lepidopterists Society based right here in the USA. As a member you would receive their publications, that includes their Journal 4X a year, the News 4X a year, a season summary and every other year a current membership directory (on even years). People are listed in that directory based on their specialties and where they are located, if they do exchanges and their complete contact information.

Most of these people do not have time to deal with rank newbies, that is better left to your local societies. But once you get "known" in the society as someone who takes what you do seriously, others will be willing to work with you (including trading livestock).

L.

Thank you,
I actually belong to the WLSS, a great site for information and such. I was looking into joining, but I never really went anywhere with that. I think I will soon. The one problem I face is import restrictions... its hard to bring anything into the U.S. without a permit.
S.B.

So, would anyone here consider it?
Ladobe,
I went on their site and I'd love to join it... hopefully soon.
Also, did you ever hear of egg- cocoon trades? So far i've only done cocoon-cocoon or egg-egg trades...
S.B.

"The one problem I face is import restrictions... its hard to bring anything into the U.S. without a permit."

Every US lepidopterist faces the fact that it is very illegal to bring any form of lepidoptera into the US without import permits. A price in time and effort you have to pay to get the livestock. Most feel it is worth the effort, but if you don't want to do it right then don't do it at all. Import/export permits are really not hard to apply for and obtain, especially if you know the regs and are willing to stand your ground against US Custom's folks who don't have a clue about the laws/regs themselves. In fact they are so far out in left field that they are more concerned about dead, papered adult lepidoptera than they are about livestock that could be a potential invasive species in this country. Every foreign or regulated specimen I have is 100% legal with import and/or collecting permits, and every one I sent out of the US had preapproved export permits. Yes, I did many battles with USFWSLE and US Customs over the years to be 100% legal, but I think it was worth it. Lepidopterists in other countries don't have to deal with the restrictions we do for the most part, but they do have to be willing to help you deal with them here in the US.

What form is available is what form is usually offered whether it be ovum, larvae or imago - and is usually readily accepted by the other party if they have to resources to rear it from that form. IOW, you take what you can get or do without. In the case of imago's, it's usually a gravid female that ovum can be obtained from, but can also be pairs of imago's to hand pair yourself.

At the level I suggested, you are really not trading. Instead you are sharing some extra livestock with someone who will also share some of their extra livestock with you. IOW, no numbers are kept, no score card kept. When two people at this level are working together rearing leps they just offer what they have extra and if the other wants it, it is sent. Trust me, you will reap far more than you give when dealing with a professional with worldwide contacts. BTW, it's also possible you will have to import/export larval foodplants as well to feed the livestock, so beside learning how to ship living livestock worldwide, you also need to learn how to send plant cuttings as well.

Another must do on your part is you have to take the responsibility for any livestock (or plants) you import into the US and take every precaution to make sure they do not get the chance to start wild colonies here. IOW, every individual you rear must be euthanized in the end.

L.

Thank you,
I was close to sending out for a permit but I was told that the supplier of what I was going to get had no more. Later on, I emailed the supplier back and they said they will have the species I wanted... I looked into getting a pemit again, and was once again close to, but then I was told not to and that they reject them all the time and its not worth it. i'm going to have to look into this again. The last time I looked it was (I believe), $100 a species. Expensive... but I think it's worth it, for some of the specimens out there you can get especially. I will have to read up on the laws and regs. When bringing sometihng like this into the U.S., I was told you ship it to a port (customs port???) and you are called when you're specimen or whatveer you're getting arrives. You bring your permit(s), show them and then you can go. Is this what you did? Or can you just bring it on a plane and show customs at the airport your permit(s)?
I read about the responsibities a while back, I understand that part. I put all my specimens into cases anyway, and I rarely release anything... even native species unless I already have.
If I do get a permit, I'll have to look around and make sure the supplier has them and can guarantee stock. I'll do some searching for international breeders and see whats available off the web.
S.B.

You're making way more out of this than it really is ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND THE REGS AND PROCEEDURES.

First off, if the foreign dealer you are contacting is honestly above board (very few are), they will already know that to ship to you legally even if you have a business import license requires a US import permit included with every box shipped listing its contents, and they know how to do them. Problem is most of them are not regulated by their own government like we are in this bleeding heart country, so they don't want to go to the trouble and may even lie to you just to make the sale. If Customs catches a package without the permit you are out your money, the bugs and you may get a visit from LE. Few packages get caught by customs though. So bottom line, you are much better off getting livestock (or papered speciemens for that matter) from other lepidopterists rather than from foreign dealers.

If you want to obtain any foreign species, I'd suggest your first step is to contact the USFWSLE and ask them to send you all the current regs (import/export, Lacey Act, CITES, ESA, etc), instructions and some blank import/export permits. If you don't fully understand the laws and proceedures, then read it all again until you do. You and you alone will have to stand in front of the judge if there is a problem, so don't trust someone you don't know to do it all for you.

I'm not going to go through all the proceedures and ramifications here as it would take pages and pages to type. Heck, it would even take hours to explain it all to you in person. But import/export permits don't cost anything other than the postage to mail them where they need to go, so whats this $100 per species crap? I'm still chuckling about this one... Custom has 6 or 8 entry ports in the US for foreign packages. Do you think you really have to travel to the one of those ports a package addressed to you comes through? With preapproved permits, they simply pass through customs at the port and continue on to you via the carrier they were shipped with.

Lastly, you still need the import (and if required collecting) permits even if bringing back specimens you obtained while traveling to a foreign country. The real fun starts when you get to US Customs at the airport/seaport, since very few port agents have a clue about the regs as they apply to lepidoptera and will take them away from you unless you do know the regs and will stand your ground diplomatically with them. Yes, I came close to fistycuffs with custom agents many times, but I was willing to fight them in court if I had to.

Ladobe,
Thank you, I honestly have no clue what they were saying... $100... no idea, the thing about the ports... no idea...Oh and BTW this was coming from someone from the USDA, maybe they thought I was talking about sometihng else...
So you basically have to tell them the rules? I'm with you on everything, the last part gets me a little worried, I'd have to be %110 sure of what I'm saying and really know the regs there.
So shipping the products home with the permit preapproved would be easier? The one I originally was going to buy from was from Australia and claimed to have export permits-they told me I need the import permits for them to ship. They seemed to be legitimate, I'll have to post for a profile of them on insectnet, if I even go anywhere with that species.
S.B.

Ignore the USDA and go to the horses, err, mouth. The US Fish and Wildlife Service Law Enforcement (within the Department of the Interior) is the governing body that directs US Customs on lepidoptera.

Generally, you are better off to ship home material collected when you visit another country. With a preapproved import permit (and a collecting permit if that country requires them) the package will probably beat you home. Hand carrying through customs and declaring lepidoptera will get you an arguement and possible confiscation from an agent who doesn't know the regs more often than not. Some collectors sneak them through and get away with it. But if they get caught doing so they'll have them confiscated and destroyed in the least, or be fined and doing some work in a rock quarry for the judge at worst. Regardless they have illegal specimens that will always hang over their head with a chance of being reported to LE (which will assure the worst outcome).

I know all of the collectors who intentionally broke the laws, were raided by LE and made an example of over the last 15 years. Three gents collecting illegal/protected/Nat'l Park species for profit, and a couple acting as dealers of same also for profit. Without getting deep into it, they all suffered big time (and they deserved it). I have never heard of a amature doing imports for personal studies being prosecuted.

BTW, when you know the regs and system inside out, and how to use them, it also becomes possible to get class A permits to do field work for our National Parks and other protected or restricted locations like I have many times.

Your dealer from OZ knows you need a preapproved import permit to receive a package from them legally, and advised you so. Means they probably are legit. Problem is when dealing with livestock "on hand" is the time frame to obtain a preapproved permit and get a copy of it to OZ to be included with the package before it can be shipped to you. IOW, livestock has died by then if not in estivation or hibernation. BTW, the permit has to list the exact number of each species in the package, they must be identified by both taxonomic and common names and state exactly where they came from.

Rattled on long enough about this. If you have other questions, contact USFWSLE pard.

Thank you
I'll contact them soon.
S.B.

Thank you
I'll contact them soon.
S.B.

Sorry for the double post.
ARRR, said the email for the LE nearest to me was invalid! Does anyone have any idea who to email? I could only find emails for comments to the site.
S.B.

Here is where the $100 came up:
"To commercially* import or export wildlife specimens across the U.S.A. national border you must get a permit from the US Fish and Wildlife agency. This license will cost you $100.00 annually. To apply for this permit you must obtain the 'Federal Fish and Wildlife License/Permit Application Form' (OMB No. 1018-0022). But that's not all..." (from http://www.insectnet.com/us_fishandwildlife.htm)
S.B.