Japie..a couple questions ..do you have a picture of the plant you are calling johannis or johannis rubra? Here is why...several years back there was some confusion on johannis and cruenta..both are beautiful plants. Take a look at 'johannis', 'fairchild' and 'Irene' on the FCBS site..meanwhile I will photo my cruenta rubra X royal burgandy

My my fascination with johannes is is a romantic one! I have got Neo johannis De Rolf. For that reason I want the original plant. The original johannis that is to be found in SA, is a green plant. No little bit of red tips, no colouring what-so-ever. Now comes the thing of beauty. I still do want johannis, and every so often I see a picture on the Internet that is called Neo johannis. And some of them are beautifully coloured. So, why not get two things for the price of one. I want a plant named johannis and I want a beautifull looking plant. Lisa even suggested that I ask Michael for a nice clone of johannis a little while ago. Now, to confuse (or tempt) me even further, there are some plants going around that is called johannis Rubra (Lisa just mentioned it again in the cross she made called Songlines). So, any johannis type plant with some colouring will do as long it is called johannis and is huge!

And if you look at Michaels list for instance, just look and see how many times johannis comes up as a parent.

I got one of those green things gong around here in SA. And on top of being green, the guy FEEDS his plants - with HOGH nitrogen. So my pup is around 70 cm tall and it is GREEN.

I can write a book about this, you want me to go on? Or do you get my picture?

Nitrogen equals green and it can take 5 months in winter to out grow the fertilzer and 3 in summer. Maybe Lisa can shed light on this because I have never seen an all green johannis when mature and no sense you looking at cruenta rubra X royal burgandy because no matter what you feed this plant it wont turn green LOL

Fairchild on FCBS is a beautiful plant. But Like De Rolf, it is a cv of johannis, so there goes my notion of having the 'original'. Same for Irene. If you look at the johannis photos, I, with my meagre knowledge of bromeliads can see that picture does not belong there - it is correia-araujoi! The 2nd picture, in my minds eye, eye see it as jhannis Rubra, the 3rd one, more like the green johannis that we have here but the fingernails are still smaller - to the point of unnoticeable. And the 4th one is also a beautifull plant.

So, what am I looking for? Some plant, that can call johannis and would not feel ashamed to do that, say for instance, in Uncle Derek's company. On the other hand, (sorry Lisa for being my example again) I would want a plant that I would feel confidant about that I can use to try and create some magic: Crossing rosea striata with johannis Rubra and use the result to cross it again with johannis!

I have seen very few 'ugly' broms..from traded plants to the very expensive ones.. I'm proud to grow them to the best of my abilities and resources..Lisa creates some beautiful broms and If I measured my accompishments to hers I wouldnt try anything on my own...its a hard act to follow

I'm a bit confused too, Japie. As I think I explained earlier, the name "johannis" has been misapplied to a lot of different things, so if you just say you want a johannis, you could get anything. "Johannis rubra" is not a true johannis, and neither is 'Irene'. 'Fairchild' is, and 'DeRolf' is, and there are others clones too. If you want Michael to send you what you want, you need to point him in the right direction.

What I meant by "a good johannis" is a clone of the true species with a lot of red on it, like this one:

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I don't know if this clone has a name, or how close it is to 'Fairchild'. When I got it people were still calling it "cruenta rubra", which we now know to be wrong. You could send this picture to Michael and ask him if he's got something like that. If he doesn't, I could probably get some to him at a later date, but I'll bet he has a good clone-- I just don't know what it would be called on his price list.

Even this one will be completely green if it's getting too much fertilizer or not enough light, though. It needs full-on sun to get that kind of coloration.

Here is a picture of my Neo johannis. I got it from a horticulturer that works for the Kirstenbosch Botical Garden here in Cape Town, he in turn got it from a professor in Botany in Durban who got the plant somewhere in Sout America. Since February, this young pup was given as much sun as I can manage and it still looks like that - just a bit bigger!!
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Japie, I was writing at the same time as you two were posting, so I missed a few things. Can you explain what you mean by "Fairchild on FCBS is a beautiful plant. But Like De Rolf, it is a cv of johannis, so there goes my notion of having the 'original'."?

What do you mean by "the original"? You say the "original" in SA is all green, but that you don't want that. If you want a well-colored one then you don't necessarily want the first Neo. johannis that was ever collected and described, if anyone even knows what that is. How does being a cultivar make it not what you want? They're ALL cultivars!

Lisa, the plant in your picture is great! That would be totally acceptable to me. As I said, I would like to have a plant I can call johannis with preferable some red in it. And be able to use it cross pollination. No use to use cruenta x Royal Burgundy as a pollen parent and said I used johannis as a pollen parent.

Your picture of johannis is really very nice, what does your johannis Rubra look like?

I don't have "johannis rubra", and I can't find a picture on the web either. There are a number of different cvs. of that one floating around too, but they're just medium sized reddish plants, nothing very exciting.

Back in the early brom days, there were two "species" you could use to get red color: carolinae and johannis rubra, so they were both used a lot in hybridizing. Harry Luther has said he has no idea what "johannis rubra" really is, or even if it's a species or a hybrid, but one thing's for certain, it's not Neo. johannis as we know it today. It also can't hold a candle to some of the newer varieties. The leaves aren't that wide, and it doesn't have any particular distinguishing traits, just solid color, which, depending on the clone, could be dark red (almost as dark as Dexter's Pride) or more pinkish red. I used to have a cv. of it called 'Pink Lemonade' (it's not on FCBS either), which was dark pink.

Lisa, what I meant is this: I have got De Rolf, which is a cv of Neo johannis. The romantic side in me would love to have the johannis that De Rolf, Fairchild, etc, is a cv of. Or was the very first johannis that was collected - or described, or pin-pointed after the mix up with cruenta Rubra was cleared up - a totally green plant? (Read my comment on this thread at 14h30). Then I will accept my green baby as the original will try ro get me another johannis cv that looks something like yours' or Fairchild.

It seems that I also take too long to pin my words down and you are replying so fast that there is another reply in between.

Lisa, why I thought you have a johannis Rubra, is your comments in Unknown Neo species where you said: " Devo, I think you should do that cross. It would likely be very nice. 'Songlines' is ('roseo-striata' x 'johannis rubra') x johannis. It's one of the few that I consider a "finished product", i.e. no real need to build on it. I threw 'Pinstripe' out of my shadehouse when this one came along! ;-)" Or is Songlines not your creation, or what did you mean by 'johannis rubra'?

the cruenta pic i spoke of was for clarification of what you thought johannis is..
This conversation has gone to hello in a hand basket...i'm going outside and pet a bromeliad LOL

Tell you what, HDD. In stead of just petting a bromeliad, why don't you cross pollinate 2 johannis look alikes and send me the seeds? :-))

I did and it will be a few months LOL...I just talked with a collector here in teh USA that collects only species and he confirms Lisa's picture as the real johannis...the green -pink tipped plant is cruenta...does this muddy the water more?

Your seeds grew fast ....here it is (hehe)
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Yeah, this is turning into "who's on first?" LOL

I think where part of the confusion is coming from is the word "cultivar". To say something is a cv. of a species doesn't mean that it is something different from that species, it just means it is one particular clone of it. The words clone and cultivar can be used interchangeably, and can be applied whether you're talking about a species or a hybrid. It just means one particular form which is consistant. "Fairchild" is one clone, "DeRolf" is another, "Foster's Pink Tips" is another, but they're all Neo. johannis. There is no one individual that gave rise to all of them, they were most likely all wild-collected at some point, as were probably a number of other forms that nobody thought deserved a distinct cv. name.

I have no idea what the original herbarium collection of Neo. johannis looked like. You'd have to go collect some DNA from the dried sample and clone it to find out, but it was described well before the confusion and misnaming started. What Harry Luther and other taxonomists are doing is trying to make sure that what is currently being grown under that name is in fact the same species as the original type specimen. Since all they have to work with is a dried, pressed sample with a written description, often details like color get lost, and of course coloration and markings often depend on where it was growing, so even a well-written description may be misleading. That's why floral morphology is so important. It is much more reliable than color, markings, size or form.

For years, what everybody called "johannis" was a concentrica-like plant with a purple cup. How this confusion started is anybody's guess, but once somebody thought to compare the floral morphology with the type specimen they realized it was not the same. I think 'Irene' must be a cv. of the purple-cupped plant.

I have no idea how the whole "johannis rubra" thing started either, because that not only doesn't look anything like the true johannis, it also doesn't look like purple cup guy either.

As to Songlines, yes, it's my creation. I crossed the johannis rubra x roseo-striata plant with my Neo. johannis. As to where the mother plant came from, I honestly can't recall. Three possibilities: a) I got that hybrid already made; b) I borrowed a friend's johannis rubra to play with; or c) I used the 'Pink Lemonade' form. I don't think it was "c" because I would have written PL instead of JR, and if I had borrowed a plant it's more likely I would have used it as a pollen parent instead of a seed parent, so I'm leaning towards "a". Mind like a sieve, I'm telling you........ ;-)

It's all academic anyway because I no longer have the mother plant OR roseo-striata OR Pink Lemonade. I routinely toss things out to make room for better things, and Songlines qualifies as a better thing! I do like to hang onto the species, but my roseo-striata stopped roseo-striating, so I need a new one.

Sorry to ramble, but there was so much confusion here I wanted to do my best to try to clarify what we're talking about.

Okay, overlap again...... *sigh*

What is that a picture of, HDD?

Japie's green plant could be cruenta, but my johannis pups look like that too if they're not getting enough light.

cv. of 'Avalon' X johannis X big bands

Is it (Avalon x johannis) x Big Bands or Avalon x (johannis x Big Bands)? Makes a difference, y'know.... ;-)

Either way, it's only 1/4 johannis. Very nice, but it would probably lose its banding over here.

('Avalon' X johannis) X big bands..why would it loose the bands?

They almost always do. Most banding is initiated during cooler weather than what we have here. We sometimes get a bit during winter if the nights are chilly enough, and it will last until the leaves grow out but then it disappears. I've learned not to buy a plant based on those kinds of markings unless I know it's been grown locally.

BTW, if the mother is the same banded plant that is pictured in Baensch's book, it's actually Avalon x johannis rubra.

Who would have thought I'd stirred so vigorously in the hornet's nest by just asking for a johannis?! Last night I had nightmares about green monsters chasing me, and some of the green monsters were really angry and even glowed red as a result!

Thanks Lisa for your patience typing down scuch detailed explanations. I just love absorbing all the information.

HDD, you MUST share your secret getting plants - and such lovely ones - so fast from seed to maturity!!!

The bands in this one form with or without temp changes. very stable. And this plant wasnt mated with the book's mom LOL. I have grown this plant and the parents for a few years

In that case, I want one!

OK let figure out how to get one over there :)

If I recall correctly,Lisa owes me an airline ticket ;)
and I could just hand carry it to her doorstep...
Sounds like a plan to me !!
Bob

I think your memory's acting up, Bob. I do seem to recall something about half a rubber raft, though..... ;-)

HDD, you're absolutely SURE that's not temperature banding? It sure looks like it to me and I've been disappointed many many times. What are your year round nighttime temps?

Some of the plants will show temp bands if taken in the late fall and are very small bands..............but pups taken in the spring have just as many bands(big bands) and our night temps are consistantly 70 plus from April thru Nov as a matter of fact 70 would be a nice temp in June july august and sept at night as we rarely drop below 80 at night in those months. But I wont send the plant if you think it will disappoint you

You'd expect to see temperature banding in the spring because the bands are initiated at the growing point during winter, and then become visible as the leaves grow out in spring. If you're still seeing wide bands late in the year, then it's probably not temperature-related. You say they're very small in late fall, so I'm thinking there's probably a connection there.

'Big Bands' (AKA Oeser #100) doesn't band here, and neither does 'Florida' ("Avalon' x johannis), or most of the others that band on the Mainland and elsewhere. The only parent plant I've found that imparts that trait at all in this climate is 'Lambert's Pride'.

All I can tell you is the bands are on the pup at 2 inches or 10 inches and remain constant through out the life of the plant no matter when the pup forms winter, spring fall, summer. I have Oeser 100 and harleguin and neither look like the plant in the photo posted here. They grow dark burgundy/maroon leaves instead of the red to maroon this partiular plant does. I'll shoot a photo of the 3 together when I get time

Would anyone have a good picture of 'Songlines'? Sounds interesting

richtrav, that someone would have to be me, since it hasn't gotten around yet. I posted a picture of it towards the bottom of the thread titled "Unknown Neo. species", but here are a couple more:

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that's a gorgeous plant! reminds me of some of the beautiful foliage Vrieseas you are growing.

Lisa

That's a beautiful plant. You wouldn't have any pictures of some of the Neomeas you've done handy would you?

The only one I have a picture of is xNeomea 'Zydeco'. The one in the pic is a slightly different clone than the one Michael has, but it's pretty similar:

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