Hmmm...you have a dilemma it seems, Lisa.

I don't see why one should be considered an "irresponsible hybridizer" if any or all of either grex are given their formula names, and marketed as such. In my opinion, that makes one a responsible hybridiser. I suppose that suits the first batch shown of N.punctate x 'Blushing Tiger' better than the H.L.F2s. By giving the latter the formula name of N. 'Rafa' x 'Tiger', suggests you have made that cross yourself, rather than them being F2s (self-pollinated).
I have heard suggestions that the preferable term these days is "seedling of (something-or-other)", rather than "(something-or-other) F2". Surely the regulations suggested by the registrar are pertinent to official registration only. If you wish to tag and release any hybrid for purely marketing purposes, then I doubt there is any official rule regarding that, and is at your discretion?
If, as you hope, any of the first grex are distinctive AND give you the desired blushing centre at flowering, then you could apply for registration of those specific ones - while the rest remain under formula.
For those distinctive H.L.F2s - and I see several beauties there - can't you add the popular "superior clone" title and justifiably charge more for those? And is it against the law to release any with a unique name, but just not officially registered?
I realise there is a potential problem of others registering your hybrids, post purchase, as their own. I don't see how that form of dishonesty can be controlled.

Something which has puzzled me for quite a while is the popular belief that a hybrid should only be registered once there is a marketable quantity of that plant. Is that a written rule? I have always believed that the importance of registration is not directly related to sales purposes - but simply as an official record of that cultivar's existence. I know many folk refer to the photo index on FCBS site (or the BSI cultivar database) as an indicator of availability and authenticity. Many SPECIES recorded in the database (after official description and publication) are rarely available at a commercial level - so why the different attitude for hybrids/cultivars?

I believe the role of cultivar registrar, on Unc Derek's retirement, will be shared by a committee headed by Jay Thurrott, vice president of the BSI. I do not envy them their task...

Cheers,
Kerry

In the last Journal, Derek had some comments on registration in "Cultivar Corner": I consider they all could have the same name. I think he was saying, without saying it, is that you would register one and sell them all under the same name. That does seem quite accommodating and reasonable. In your case Lisa, why register 50 names or throw out 49 plants? I think most people want names and not formulas.

As far as a hybridist following any rules, I think that's incredibly silly. As there is no Hybridist Guild or Society, how can there be rules? Anyone can be a hybridist and they can become one for many reasons. For anybody to presume to control that is a bit far fetched. The best the Bromeliad Registrar can do is try to accommodate these hybridists or risk chaos.

No Lisa, I don't see anything wrong with releasing some of them for sale as Punctate x Blushing Tiger seedlings, you might want to register a couple, maybe some of the best seedlings could be numbered ex: Punctate x Blushing Tiger #1 to later distinguish them from each other. There looks to be some very nice plants in the bunch, there a couple I can see that I wouldn't mind having.

Now about the HLs I see some with lots of banding and very little green. I like that maybe the best should be named and registered. Maybe you could work on one with very narrow green bands, you'll have to wait and see if the pups go the same way. Many of them do look just like HL, and might as well be.

There have been some very nice Daylilys introduced that were almost composted, but someone saw something in it that caused them to say, "don't compost that" which in a lot of cases ends in a sale, or someone getting the plant as a gift. Then later for reasons known only to the plant it improves to the point that it would be criminal not to introduce it.

I heard INDIAN GIVER had such a history, the seeding was admired by someone and given to them as a gift, and a couple of years later the hybridizer saw it in the garden of the person he gave it to and wanted it back. Supposedly that is how it got it's name.

I do not envy you the decision Lisa! There seem to be quite a couple of very nice looking ones in the Punctate x Blushing Tiger grex. Obviously you will register one or 2, or 10, if there are outstanding ones with some unique qualities. And sell off the rest to the local market under formula. When some of retailer or collector want to get some, surely then there must be some kind of diffirentiation between the ones under formula. Like, say Michael gets 5 different ones from you and I see a picture posted by a GW member and order me one because I like it, and some different looking one ends up on my doorstep, then I will not be happy! I have not got a solution, just thinking about the consequences.

Surely what Bromadams suggest: "I think he was saying, without saying it, is that you would register one and sell them all under the same name. That does seem quite accommodating and reasonable. " could definitely NOT work. Same reason. I see a registered plant and decided to get it. And then something different (inferior - for was it superior, the hybridist would surely have named it!)makes it's way to me. Again, I will not be a happy chappy!

Tough decisions! Although, beautiful plants! I would not mind getting a lot like that and use them in landscaping. What a stunning sight it will be to plant 20 or 30 of them together as a feature. All basically the same but with that slight variations from plant to plant. Awesome!!!

And now I am starting to get nervous with all these punnets of seedlings in my shadehouse !

Japie

Lisa - Although I am a "Johnny come lately" to this forum and indeed to growing broms, I would still like to add my "two bobs worth". To me the problem is simple, if you don't want to register a seedling, just tag it as the cross formula plus a number. This clearly identifies every particular plant from that point on, no matter who owns it.

I think another way to go would be if the whole cross was registered instead of individual plants and then each individual seedling worthy of a name, (no matter who owned it) was given a varietal name e.g In a cross of say (a x b) all of the seedlings of that cross would be registered as (c). The superior ones worthy of a name would be given a varietal name to distinguish them from the ordinary "run of the mill" (c)'s. You could have (c) variety Lisa or (c) variety Kerry, (c) variety Bali etc. These plants would then be registered as such.

What does get up my nose a bit are people who buy seedlings or any unnammed plants for that matter and just stick their own "moniker" on them adding further to the name confusion.

This naming quandry is aggravated even further by some unscrupulous sellers who buy in flasks of tissue cultured plants, grow them on and sell them as unnammed "tissue cultured plants". In fact one lady I know bought one of these and said the seller told her now that she had purchased it, she had the right to name it.

I don't think we can ever stamp out wrong names but I'm sure that responsible hybridizers would be more likely to use a system of naming which was fair, quick and easy to use.

This is the challenge that faces the new Cultivar Registrar/s on Uncle Derek's retirement. All the best, Nev

Several of you have made some good points, and this is exactly the type of discussion we need to have. I am hopeful that the new registrar/committee will engage in an open exchange of ideas with hybridizers, and come up with some workable policies that will benefit everyone involved.

Personally, I have no problem with plants being sold under formula, particularly in a local setting where people are buying based on the appearance of the plant, not the name. The problem comes in, as Japie says, when you make a mail order purchase sight unseen, and the clone you receive is different from the one you saw and wanted. This can also be a problem when a single cultivar name is used for all similar looking siblings in a grex. The easiest solution to both of these is, as Nev suggests, to number the clones. I've done this in cases where there are only one or two lookalikes in the grex, and I know several other hybridizers have as well.

Of course if you're going to number all 50 or 100 sibs, you'd better not lose those tags! I defy anyone to pull one of the seedlings from either of the above grexes and say "Oh yes, that's clearly #14." And keep in mind that I haven't even shown you all of the other similar looking crosses! I've probably got at least 100 other grexes currently in the pipeline with one or more zonated parents, and they all tend to blur together after a while. And that's just my stuff. There are a number of other hybridizers working this same vein at the moment too. That's why I have to laugh sometimes when somebody posts a photo here for ID and we all try to guess based only on what we have in our collections or photos we see on FCBS. There are not just a limited number of possibilities, it's infinite! But I digress......

As far as giving a grex name AND a cv. name, that was the old system. It does make sense in a lot of cases, but more recently has been phased out as being too unwieldy. The current policy is that cultivar name is all-important and grex is practically meaningless. Our current registrar doesn't even require that you know or give the parentage. I have some issues with that, but I'll admit it does make the registration process easier, for better or for worse.

"I realise there is a potential problem of others registering your hybrids, post purchase, as their own. I don't see how that form of dishonesty can be controlled." Kerry, you have put your finger on my biggest problem with the current policies. Not so much people claiming a plant as there own, but being actively ENCOURAGED by the registrar to give any plant a cultivar name if they want to sell or trade it. You can't control people's behavior, but I believe it should be the stated POLICY of the registry that before you take it upon yourself to slap a name on a plant, you make every effort to contact the hybridizer and get their permission. That's just common courtesy, but I can cite you several recent cases where that's been blatantly ignored, and for no good reason that I could see. Of course it can't be enforced, but let's set a higher tone here, folks, that's all I'm asking.

"Something which has puzzled me for quite a while is the popular belief that a hybrid should only be registered once there is a marketable quantity of that plant." Yes, this has puzzled me too, particularly when you combine it with the notion that no plant should enter the trade without a name, and that once you name it you'd jolly well better register it or you could lose the name to someone else. If you were to follow all of these "rules" the only correct course of action would be that at the exact moment your hybrid first changes hands, your other hand must be on the keyboard submitting it for registration! Okay, that may be a bit of an overstatement, but you see what I'm getting at. These are contradictory policies.

"As far as a hybridist following any rules, I think that's incredibly silly." I don't agree. Of course there are no penalties, but the goal is to create an organized system that growers, breeders and collectors can all benefit from. If we can do that, then compliance will be freely given. Maybe between all of us we can come up with some workable suggestions to present to the committee, or am I dreaming?

Lisa,
I think that if you are going to go to the trouble of hybridizing and registering a plant, there should be a reasonable amount of it available for sale. If the plant is not going to be offered to the public why bother registering it? How much do you need? I think the system you and Michael are using right now works, you make them, and for the most part he increases and sells them. That was probably my only problem with all the Australian plants that were being registered, we will never see more than a few here, and was there that much of a market there? I don't think so.

Just keep making magical plants, don't fret about the small stuff!

Can you tell it's getting cold here? I have some big tim catching up on the FCBS site. I just finished getting everything inside.

If you sell a plant unregistered then you must not have thought it was a good plant and if gets named by someone else but you receive credit for the hybrid..thats fair enough. Many hybrids are sold with naming rights passed to the buyer. All the hybridiser asked is credit for their work. It become an acceptable practice
As far as the current system...it has lost its point. I thought it was to help identify species and hybrids but now any plant can be registered even if its the only one in existance.
I recently registered a plant (not my own)that has been sold for years under the name. Credit was given the hybridiser. My reason..I have hybrids coming up with the
plant as a parent.
As far as a committe to do the job I doubt that will improve a system with no 'enforceable' guidelines

Lisa said: "the goal is to create an organized system that growers, breeders and collectors can all benefit from."

I don't think that's everybody's goal. You're right, there are almost no penalties for not playing the game the way BSI wants it played. So people play their own games and ignore the BSI. I'm sure some growers are just ignorant, some lazy, others just want to make money and don't care what they sell or give away. And I suspect there are a lot of small time growers who just don't think it matters what they do or maybe they don't speak English well enough to complete the forms or don't have a digital camera or Internet access. In the end you have growers who don't participate.

I was at a mall the other day and it was full of bromeliads and not one was labeled. A landscapers that I know doesn't worry to much about labels since very few of his customers care about labels. He almost always knows what they are, but once out of his control many are never going to be correctly identified (short of DNA testing). I'm sure there are plenty of markets for bromeliads of unknown provenance.

I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about all this. As I've said plenty of times, the future will look quite different once DNA testing hits. My advice is to sell every plant you grow and label them the way your customers want them labeled. If they want a name, get a name. If formula is fine, then don't bother with a name.

Hmmmm......... now why is it that whenever a woman goes into problem solving mode the male response is "don't worry about it"? Isn't that just the guy way of saying "I don't know the answer"? ;-)

For the record, I'm not worried, I just think there ought to be some protocol in place, as this issue is going to keep coming up. John, I agree that there should be a reasonable supply of a cv. before it's registered. My own true inclination would be to not submit anything for registration until it has proven itself to be commercially viable, but that is in direct conflict with the edict that you don't release anything until it's been registered. It's the Catch-22 nature of it that throws me for a loop!

At any rate, if I don't get what I'm looking for, the seedlings above will most likely be just for local sales anyway, so it's less of an issue because local buyers don't care. Still, I'm one who believes that things generally work better if everybody plays by the rules, assuming the rules are written so that they are easy to play by. Right now they're not, and that's the situation I'm trying to address.

Lisa - To add further to our naming discussion, I was looking through the Nov/Dec 2007 copy of the Bromeliad Society of Queensland's magazine, "Bromeliacae" and noticed on a few of the pics of neoregelias, that following the name is the word unreg. For example on page 4 there is a pic of Neo. 'Dawes Autumn' unreg, on page 10 there is Neo. 'Parlour Pink' unreg and on page 12 there is Neo. 'Big Ben' unreg and Neo. 'Lola' unreg - Does this mean that the plants are as yet unregistered and that these names are the intended names to be used when they are eventually registered or is it just another way of identifying different plants which will not be registered?
Perhaps kerry can help us with an answer as she lives closer to that area than I and maybe knows the reason.
I guess it's more 'food for thought', all the best, Nev

Nev I don't know about the other names listed but Parlour Pink was used May 29, 2000 to register a plant. They may be growers names only

Is it possible to get plants unregistered? How many hybrids are registered that never made it into circulation? I think it would be great if we could start culling the registry. I don't know, maybe make a list of likely candidates every year and if nobody claims to have one, or cares, it's gone! It can always be registered again if a mistake is made.

Regards those hybrids shown in the Qld society newsletter, Nev - I don't know for sure, but my guess is that those unregistered hybrids are names given by either the hybridist or original seller, which will probably never get registered. There are several hybrids around here that are known by a certain name, but not officially registered. I know a few hybridists who "do not bother with all that"...

Cheers,
Kerry

I think that is why you see Derek registering plants. He picks up the slack for those who don't bother with the registrations. I wouldn't want that job unless you got paid for each registration.

I finally got around to having a few minutes to spend at the computer and respond with my two cents worth. This has been a fascinating and hopefully productive discussion!

First of all, we should all have more hybrids crosses give us such grief, and on a far more regular basis! There were many that I would be reluctant to cull from either the 'Punctate' x 'Blushing Tiger' or the HL f2s. As to how you label them- I've been identifying individuals with a numbering system after the grex name, based on the order in which they come into bloom. At least it allows me a systematic way of tracking pups while I decide if an individual clone is worthy of registration. It looks like Lisa is going to have some tough choices to make next spring when all those babies come into flower!

I guess that my thoughts are pretty much in agreement with Japie. At some point, you will likely select a few with special merits that deserve to be shared (with all of us!) Those will undoubtedly be given proper names and registered in due time. I don't have a problem with selling the "culls" labeled with the formula name. We have to be somewhat practical here. I think that growers should be able to get some compensation for their product and not be obligated to dump reasonably attractive plants into the compost pile. Those of us who are fanatics, and most of us who post here probably are, may insist on a plant with a pedigree. However, to be realistic, the vast majority of plant lovers would be perfectly content in knowing that the plant that they just purchased is a "Bromeliad".

Regarding a couple of Lisa's other points- "I believe it should be the stated POLICY of the registry that before you take it upon yourself to slap a name on a plant, you make every effort to contact the hybridizer and get their permission"- if Lisa should inadvertantly let slip the one plant that becomes a wild commercial success, it would only seem courteous to give her the chance to make amends and name her own creation.

The second discussion point is "at what point do you give a plant a name?" I personally have very little space for growing anything in "commercial" quantities before releasing it. If I like something well enough, then I will give it a name and register it in the hopes that others will also find the plant worth growing. Have I made a misjudgement or two along the way? Probably.

Third point, with the explosion of new plants on the registry, there seems to be some urgency to name plants before a "good" name is taken. In a perfect world, a plant will seem to name itself. There is nothing more annoying than going to the registry and finding that your proposed plant name has already been given to a plant that doesn't "fit" it's name. I suppose that perception is in the eye of the beholder, but I think many of you will catch my drift. The point is, if you think you have the "right" name for your plant, there is pressure to go ahead and register it- if only to protect the name.

Finally, Nev and Kerry bring up an issue which reinforces the need for a cultivar registry. If a plant is widely circulating around Australia with an "unregistered" name, and by sheer happenstance I should register one of my hybrids using that same name, which plant gets to keep the name? The whole point of the cultivar registry is to avoid nasty, confusing messes like that. Now if I'm not careful, I'll start sounding like Uncle Derek!

Paul

Thanks for the input, Paul. I'm thinking that rather than to wait around for all of the first grex above to bloom naturally, I'll just hit them all with a Florel spray. They're big enough to bloom, and that way I can get simultaneous feedback on all of them and make my culls. Unless I get something pretty spectacular you'd probably have to come over here to get any of them, though. Since Michael is selling plants from his own lookalike grex, it makes no sense to send him any of mine. Same with the HL F2s, they're everywhere!

As to the pressure to name and register, it strikes me that this is a direct offshoot of our having moved into the cyber age. Fifteen or twenty years ago, heck, even TEN years ago we were all operating in a comparative vaccuum, relatively unaware of what anyone outside of our own little corner of the world was up to. The registry was only available as a hard copy notebook with no pictures, and updates were published maybe once every ten years. The main purpose of it at the time seemed to be to provide parentage information on known cultivars, as well as keep track of what crosses had already been made. I believe the last of these came out in '98, and as I recall I paid about $40 for it, so it wasn't something that everybody had access to. It's not surprising that a lot of names got duplicated, particularly if the crosses were made on two different continents. There really wasn't a good way to check on that sort of thing.

Back then registering a hybrid required filling out a couple of pages of forms, not only of the parentage and a description, but also the date the cross was made and date it first bloomed, taking several photos of the plant (at least one had to be at anthesis), and mailing the whole kit and caboodle off to the registrar (I think there may have also been a fee involved, but I'm not sure). Needless to say, many of us never bothered with it because it was just too much hassle and there didn't seem to be any real pressure to do so. I never really thought that much about any of my hybrids making it out into the world anyway, it was just my own little private hobby.

Nowadays it is not only ridiculously easy to register a plant online, but once you do that everyone in every part of the world can see it. This leads to a certain amount of competition for names, not to mention sheer number of cvs. registered. In addition, the focus of the registry has changed radically. Recording the parentage has slipped from being the main purpose to being not even a requirement, but as far as I'm aware, this change has never really been officially addressed. It is just assumed that we all accept the premise that registration is an obligation, and with that assumption comes a pressure to submit everything you can before waiting to see if it will become an industry standard or not. It is odd to realize that this whole mindset simply did not exist when many of us started out.

I never have known what the purpose of the registry was. I was told it was for identification purposes. But by any standard its not even that the way it stands.

Hi guys

Ja very interesting thread. I must say that I agree with Lisa and Paul. I think the registry is like a very large online shopping catalog!

I also have plenty plants that I couldnt realistically toss on the compost heap, but for now I will grow them on in the garden (I have plenty room on the verge) and see if they develop into nice adult plants...

Here are some below:

{{gwi:502064}}

Cheers

Dennis