Susan,

Yours look just like mine. I collected some for John Nelson to look at when he comes over later this week. I am thinking YCSM, and my reasoning is the thorax does not have the iridescence that the abdomen has. I have some with wing borders, and some with more opaque wings. Some are larger and some are smaller. The one thing I can say about all of them, is that I have a lot of them in my yard!

Here is a picture that I took:

{{gwi:546813}}
and a closeup of the thorax region
{{gwi:546814}}

Sandy

Susan,

I found a really good picture of a VC moth (sounds like Viet Cong moth!) on pbase. You can definitely see the blue iridescence just below the neck on the thorax in this photo.

Sandy

Here is a link that might be useful: Virginia Ctenuchid Moth

Susan,

I've been thinking about this. And I think I might have a solution! Catch one and check out the hindwing. If it's translucent, it's a YCSM. If it's opaque, then the odds are pretty good it's a VC moth. All the ones I've caught have translucent hindwings, so mine are probably all YCSMs.
However, there is something about yours that makes me think it might be different than mine--something about the shape of the body and the forewing.

Good luck!

Sandy

I agree with Sandy, Susan. My Covell's book shows and describes the YCSM as having translucent hindwings, which the VC doesn't have.
MissSherry

Here's comparison of both images to compare.

Very interesting. I have some. Have not had time to download pics onto computer, yet. Probably YCSM. Fantastic pics for both of you. :)

Sandy, I'm jealous that John's coming to see your great habitat.

Here is a link that might be useful: Comparison image

I'll have to go with Cisseps fulvicollis by logic & common sense.

While it is not impossible that Ctenucha virginica individuals may get carried into areas very distant from their normal present day range like to OK (via hurricanes for example), and even survive for a time it is still highly unlikely. In both of these species the remant populations of today are because large tracts of habitats that once linked them together have been altered making vast areas no longer suitable for them. So they can not close that gap naturally.

Species attributes can vary considerably even within a local colony, so different species that are outwardly similar can easily be confused with each other, especially when in the same family as these two are. In hand (with keys if needed) they can be told apart though.

As for records, state or otherwise, they are only as good as the person making the bugs determination AND the person accepting them for listing. So even they can be erronius.

Everyone is correct. I caught one and brought it inside to study. I put it in a plastic baggy, which it immediately flew out of and up into my flourescent light under the cabinets. While it was fluttering around up there, I watched it for awhile and was able to clearly see the translucent hindwings. So, definitely a Cissups fulvicolis (Yellow-Collared Scape Moth).

Ladobe, we knew it was out of its range, but just were unable to see all attributes of this moth and put them together for a conclusive ID. We were hoping, though! Always on the lookout for something new.

A lot of websites are out of date as to the range of certain species of moth and butterfly. Even our own Oklahoma book, Butterflies of Kansas, Oklahoma, and North Texas is out of date since its publication several years ago. Ranges have changed as well as host plant information and other details. Don't get me wrong - it's still a great book. I wish it showed more photos of egg to butterfly metamorphosis. For this, I rely on Judy's book, which is wonderful! However, with the information on this forum alone, a tome could be published with information gleaned from our own "hands-on experiences", that would ever be achieved by a few individuals on their own. I wish that these books would come with annual updates to include new sightings and information not known at the time of publication, like they do our federal and state statutes. The law changes constantly. I'm sure everyone would be willing to pay a nominal price for a yearly update to say, David Wagner's books, and other guides, huh?

Oh, BTW, the moth was released outside unharmed. Still, gorgeous little mimics, aren't they?

Susan

Susan (and Linda),

This has been quite an adventure, hasn't it? I so wanted it to be a state record, but, not erroneously. I'll probably call John Nelson and let him off the hook gracefully. As much as I selfishly would like to have him come and (me) have the opportunity to be around one with so much expertise, I feel I might be wasting his valuable time. We'll see what he says.

My garden is not that special, it is just an area of my yard, quite small really compared to the rest of the yard, but I've been fortunate to have lots of visitors this summer. I don't have that wonderful habitat like Susan, and so many yards I've seen. But hubby isn't into that, and I do what I can. I have beds on three sides of my house also. I have the "refined" gardens. Not what I would choose to do if I was on my own. LOL

Anyway, it's been a lesson in IDing moths. Everytime I delve into something like this, I learn something new and really appreciate lepidopterists. What a vast and incredibly wonderful world is the field of lepidoptery. Being a hobbyist is great fun and keeps my brain from going mushy. Delving into a good moth mystery gets the blood flowing!

Susan, your pictures were absolutely the best. I think they were better than the ones posted on the internet. Maybe you should submit them. And, I wish I had thought when we talked on Sunday to have you catch one and examine it. It would have made life easier, but maybe less interesting. I don't think like a professional would.

Ladobe, thanks for sharing your expertise. We have seen a lot of unusual and exotic moths and butterflies in Oklahoma this year, including the white-tipped black moth, the melonworm moth, the hermit skipper, and the sicklewing skipper (?). The early hurricanes and tropical storms in Texas brought a lot of interesting critters up the highway. So we are on the lookout.

Also, Susan has found lots of county records in her little habitat, a place I always enjoy visiting, so it wasn't really that much of a stretch to think she could have had a VC.

AA (As always),

Sandy

Mine was a YCSM, also. Such a interesting, fun thread. I would not have known to check about translucent hindwings, if I hadn't read this post.

Sandy, you have found lots of wonderful cats, butterflies, and moths in your yard. It's a great habitat. And, I already knew that Susan's was.

Are you all still seeing lots of Monarchs? My numbers are waaay down. I had them coming thru in small numbers, but not staying. Most were high in the sky. I've still got tags to use. Someone posted about a large roost in OKC last night at Journey North.

Linda,

After the clouds went through here yesterday, the monarchs flew so high I could barely make them out with my binoculars. I did have some nectaring in my yard all day. And I've had a few today, but my Queens left. : (

John Nelson came to visit my garden this afternoon. He is such a nice man, very humble. I enjoyed the time with him. I learned he does not have a BF garden in his yard--just grass! He told me how he got started and how he found all the records--mostly in the weed patch behind his house. It turns out he lives about half a mile from where our old house was, and only about 5 miles from where we live now. He doesn't see the variety around his house that he did 35 years ago. Too much development.

He also mentioned the Queen that you gave him and how wonderful it was for you to do that, because someone offered to buy it from you. He treasures that BF!

He told me he has in the 100,000's in his collection and he plans to leave it to the BF museum in Florida, as there isn't a place that would appreciate it around here. Right now it's in drawers at ORU. Anyone is welcome to view it, if you don't mind pulling out drawers.

It's been a nice day. This morning, I rode my bike over to the field that I've told you about. There were white and lavender asters in bloom everywhere. I will collect seed for you this fall. I saw so many BFs, it was absolutely incredible. I saw a Goatweed Leafwing, so I know they are around. Now, to entice some into my yard!

I took some pictures that I will try to email you. I saw lots of P incarnata, and other plants I couldn't ID. The sumac is starting to turn. It just makes me incredibly sad to know that this will all be gone too soon.

Sandy

Sounds like a gorgeous, pristine, native area. So sad it will be gone to construction. Yes, do save me some seed. Looking forward to seeing the pics. I'm sure that there is croton in the area. Do you know what it looks like?

I would say that the incarnata leaves would work, if they are fresh, and not standing in water. In my area, I can not imagine them surviving without living near a water source, or supplemental watering!

What a thrill to have John N. come visit your habitat, and to live so close. He is so kind, and has such a wealth of knowledge to learn from. John F. is pretty darn good at Iding bugs, also. You will learn so much. Donna Horton at Oxley in Tulsa is very knowledgeable about butterflies and plants. Did you meet her at the Butterfly Count? I just wish that I did not live so far. :(

I do hope to see some of John N.'s wonderful collection, sometime. The abberrant Queen that I found last year was pretty striking. I will try remember to post some pics.

I did not realize that Queens migrated. Usually, I have them until frost. I noticed that Susan said she saw hers flying north, then there was talk on the Monarch Watch d-plex of possible migrating Queens, and now you mention that your Queens left. Guess that I have not been very observant! Mine are still mating, and laying eggs. I still have some resident Monarchs mating, and laying eggs with the warm weather that we have been having.

Saw 4 pipevines Monday. They are mating, and laying eggs, also on the tiny new growth on my vines.

Doesn't it, though, Sandy? I was being very introspective in my garden yesterday, thinking "wow, it had just begun, when all of sudden, summer has passed and now we won't see much until March (I see Goatweed Leafwings and Mourning Cloaks very early here since they aestivate over winter locally). Kind of sad each year to say goodbye to them.

I found a beautiful Monarch specimen under my daughter's bed this last weekend. It had eclosed inside the cupboard in the kitchen (heehee) and flew away and I could NOT find it for anything! I felt so bad for it.

My aster blooms are starting to fade, but since we may get warm weather for awhile, I am thinking about deadheading the blue mistflower and the aster to see if I will get some rebloom before they are killed off by frost. What do you think?

I have so many curassavica milkweed seeds - I filled two paper bags with pods!! Sandy, you might want to plant some in front of your vines?????? I just love our conversations on the phone - we could go on forever and forever, huh? Thanks for being such a good butterfly friend.

The moths are fun - much more of a challenge to ID than the butterflies (well, except for the skippers). I've had so many different species of skippers in my yard this year.

I found one that looked pretty plain, until it opened it's wings (not a spread wing, tho), and the thorax was a beautiful irridescent turqouise blue. Anyone have a clue what might sport that color? Not a long-tailed skipper, but the colors look about the same w/o tails. Our local book does not describe a skipper with this coloration on the thorax, so am going to have to get on the net to try to ID. I took a photo, but I usually wait to try to upload my images until I have several to choose from. My computer does not like to run the SanDisk program, so it can take a few minutes up to 2 hours to load my pics w/o my computer crashing.

C'est la vie!!

Susan