Harry...I believe Miguel is a big advocate of pruning during winter while dormant and that is ok..I prune mine the same time I give my Roses their first prune which is around Valentine's day..which isn't far off..I am starting my Alfalfa Tea this weekend to be ready to prune and feed my little darlings...My reasoning is that my temps vary..it can warm up and they'll start growing and I get a freak freeze and it zaps them..It will be 78 degrees today but was 32 degrees last night..my temps can really fluctuate but of course an extended freeze is needed to zap mine..rarely do I get a freeze after Feb 14th...continue with your winter pruning..if it works for you go for it!!...Hugzzzz..Jeanne

Harry, Jeanne is correct. From my experiences, I have found I can easily prune in late December to early January and not have an issue at all with it causing any injury to the plants or causing them to resume growing and putting out new foliage. This past year, I pruned my integrifolia and heracleifolias back the day after Thanksgiving and it has not caused any issues even though we have had several warm spells up into the 70s and even 80s since I pruned. I know of others in the Portland area who prune their plants back as they can over the course of the winter due to the size of their gardens. Like you, I get cabin fever and like to get as much done during the colder months since spring is always a busy time in the garden for me. Pruning clematis early on allows me to concentrate on other things during the spring.

My thoughts on the subject are that once the plants are dormant and the days are growing shorter, as they are going into winter, that the plant is naturally asleep and pruning back will not stimulate the plant to grow. In my zone, it seems that you are more likely to encourage resprouting and growth by pruning in the early spring since that is when the days are lengthening, the days are becoming warmer, and the naturally tendencies of plants are to come out of dormancy and hence they are more likely to get zapped back by a late frost.

These principles may not be good for those who live in more moderate climates than I because their clematis may still be actively growing into December or might not yet be fully dormant. For those people, prunining back in the early spring might be better. Just like with anything else related to gardening, you have to find out what works for you in your zone and what does not.

Do you think removing such a high percentage of the top growth encourages more root growth during the winter?

Haven't really thought about that Harry but I don't think the pruning would stimulate more root growth in winter. Most plants do a considerable amount of root growth during the fall when the soil is cooler based on what I have read. I am sure there would be some root growth during some parts of the winter, depending on your growing zone, but if the plant is essentially dormant, I don't think there would be that much root stimulating effect caused by top pruning in the winter.

Perhaps someone with more botany training and experience could chime in here. Although I do have a biology minor, I only took one botany class!

Miguel has it pretty much right ;-)) Although roots do not enter a similar dormant state as does top growth in winter (roots are essentially never fully dormant in perennial plants), they do slow growth considerably and for all intents and purposes, growth does stop. But of even more significance is the relationship between pruning and root development. Scientific studies indicate that pruning will actually have a negative effect on root development. And timing of the pruning has very little bearing on this. Studies of woody shrubs in a landscape setting that undergo regular shoot (top growth) pruning will have less extensive root systems with a higher proportion of dead roots than those that are not pruned. This has also been found to be true with grapes and sweet potato vines, so I'd assume it holds true for perennial vines in general. This is not to say that pruning is bad or has a negative effect on the overall health or viability of a plant, just that there is an inverse correlation between the two. This is one of the reasons that it is no longer recommended to reduce the top growth by pruning of newly planted (i.e. bare root stock) or transplanted trees and shrubs to compensate for small or damaged root sytems. It is the shoot growth that stimulates and hastens the development of new roots, not the pruning process. Except for root pruning, but that's an entirely different subject :-))

Interesting GG! I knew roots never really stopped growing as I said above. However, I have heard arguments both ways about top pruning during the growing season and its effect on root development in clematis. Most people say top pruning in clematis helps the plants develop a stronger and larger root system. Perhaps it doesn't really stimulate root development and it just allows the roots systems to become larger naturally without having to deal with all that top growth. It could be one of those other myths about clematis that has a kernel of truth buried in the message similar to the one about clematis liking cool root runs when what they really like is the moisture naturally present in soils that are cooler.

It does seem a bit hard to reconcile with the accepted practice of hard pruning the first year to "encourage strong root development" :-)) I suspect that the hard pruning primarily encourages additional stem development and branching and therefore denser top/shoot growth and this is what actually stimulates root development. That and a good, generously sized and well amended planting hole and sufficient phosphorus!

I also think that the rapid growth of the vining stems of young plants places unnecessary stress on a not well established root system - one of the hypotheses for the occurrence of clematis wilt. And that initial hard pruning provides for smaller, bushier vines more able to be adequately supported/nourished by the existing root system.

From my own personal observations, clematis vines that don't receive regular pruning - any of my type 1's - have massive root systems compared to those that receive an annual hard prune. But that may be just as easily related to the vigor and size of these types of vines, comparatively.

I think you might have exposed the kernel of truth about the hard pruning of young plants to encourage more well established root systems. It probably does so not directly but indirectly by having the plant produce more top growth which then causes the root development. I would have to go dig out the old botany book to remember the exact interaction that causes this but do vaguely remember the feedback loop of plant hormones that causes this.

I also wholeheartedly agree about the issue of root development and clematis wilt. There are some people that don't necessarily agree with this since type IIs are more succeptible to wilt but it could be argued that the other types are less likely to grow exuburant top growth at the expense of root development and that the type IIs are more likely to do so since they are hybrids.

There are many who have posted here and other places that they have had type IIIs succumb to wilt and I think that may be due to the fact that so many people tend to overfertilize clematis thinking that they will get bigger plants sooner if they do so. It is for that reason that I don't overdo any planting holes for my clematis. In fact, typically I don't amend the hole with much of anything but the soil I removed from the area along with some soil conditioner. Living in an area where clay is the predominant soil type, I have learned that overly amending any planting hole causes the hole to become a swimming pool when it rains (of course that wasn't much of a problem this past year!) Of course some fertilizer is added at a moderate amount in the spring. The plant is then well mulched and the mulch is continually replenished over time, thereby enriching the soil as it breaks down.

I tend to think that your observations about type I clematis is more likely related to their general nature and how big they naturally get. It would make sense that they would need larger root systems to handle the size of the top growth on them. If they didn't have such large roots systems, the plants would wilt due to their inability to handle the water required by the large top growth.

A few messages ago, Jeane mentioned Alfalfa Tea. Can you explain what you mean, how you make it and how frequently?
I'm new to the forum, a member of the Amer. Clem. Society here in So. Cal. I am interested in natural type fertilizers specifically rabbit turds that are not composted. Can I use them around clematis and roses without composted them?

Julie

Julie, alfalfa tea is just alfalfa pellets or alfalfa meal that is put in water, allowed to steep for a day or so and then used to water your clematis. It contains triacontanol (I always have to look the spelling up of that one) which is supposed to help cause bud breaks or basal shoot development. Following is a link on the subject that is pretty self explanatory.

As for rabbit pellets, I think you are safe using them as fertilizers without composting. I have rabbits all over my yard who leave their droppings everywhere including the lawn and I have never seen it cause any scorching of the grass or the plants where they are deposited.

Following is a link to an article which says that rabbit droppings don't need to be composted prior to use.

http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/fertilizer.php

Here is a link that might be useful: Alfalfa Tea

I have had bunnies for years, both as pets for my daughter and for their fertilizer contributions :-) I'm down to only one now and he's tiny and his production limited (relatively speaking) and it is reserved primarily for my roses and clematis. Miguel is correct - rabbit droppings are one of the very few animal manures that can be directly applied to the garden without fear of nitrogen burn. It also has a negligible aroma even when very fresh. I do try to keep a batch of bunny poop tea going as well and use this to water containerized plants as needed.

FWIW, if you provide them with a commercial packaged feed, rabbit droppings are essentially just partially digested alfalfa. You can shortcut the process by merely applying alfalfa meal to your plants, but that eliminates the pleasure of having pet rabbits :-)

Gardengal, glad to see that you concur about the bunny droppings. My advice was based on visual experiences with the droppings left by native rabbits. I do know from 1st hand experience you can use llama droppings without composting. There is a llama farm not too far from me that I have gotten droppings from before and used directly in the garden.

Here is a link that might be useful: Four Ladies and Me Llama Farm

Thanks nckvilledudes and gardengal. I'm glad I'm okay using the rabbit turds as I have.

Julie