The type IIs can typically take up to a year to germinate once planted. However it is never too late to plant clematis seed unless they are so old they won't germinate. Most people plant their clematis seed in the fall soley because that is when the seed is mature but that doesn't mean that they can't be planted at other times of the year.

Since most of the type IIs require some cold stratification to germinate, you might want to pot the seeds up in some potting soil in a smallish pot, wet the soil, and allow the pot to sit in the refrigerator in a ziplock bag for a month to six weeks, then bring the pot out and keep it in the bag, but keep it in a warm place but out of the sunlight. An alternative is to put the seeds in a baggie with slightly moist vermiculite and place this in the refrigerator and then bring it out to a warm place out of direct sunlight (inside the house for example).

Good luck!

Since 'Will Goodwin' is a hybrid clematis, you should be aware that seedgrown offspring may not bear a very close resemblance to the parent plant nor can they be accurately called by that cultivar name. But you could very well get some wonderful results anyway!!

Thanks guys! Yes, I guessed that they wouldn't be true... but since I don't know what the parent looked like, I can't be dissapointed! Chances are, if they do germinate and grow, it'll be a couple of years before I see any blooms, and by then I will have long forgotten what they were supposed to be anyways. As long as I can remember that they are clematis and type II pruning group, I'll be good.

I was afraid you were going to say it would take upwards of a year... but that's okay. I will go ahead and stratify them in the fridge, then find a quiet place outside to forget about them and try not to forget about them... lol!

Thanks again!

~Rachel

Rachel, in my experience with seed in general and clematis seed specifically, there always seem to be some seeds that germinate out of character compared to the others in the bunch so don't be overly surprised if some germinate sooner than others.

I was given some Will Goodwin seeds in January, they went into baggies with damp vermiculite at room temps and I had my first germination this morning.
I would give it a go, you have absolutely nothing to lose.
Also am getting germinations from Warsaw Nike, Alba Luxurians and Venosa violacea.
I also had 100% success with Dawn seeds and none of these had any cold treatment, just normal room temps between 17-19C.

Congrats Maggiepie. I have personally never tried to grow any type II clematis from seed since they are my least favorite type of clematis. My info comes from others who have grown them but the really strange thing that I have noted is that people growing clematis from seed in the colder regions, especially Canada, have a lot more success and quicker germinations on quite a few seed types that others in higher numbered zones have longer germination periods for. Not sure why this would be the case but I have seen it one too many times to think that it is a fluke.

Wow Maggie, I hope I have similar results! I have nine seeds, so I am thinking of trying an experiment- three go into stratification in the fridge (6 weeks), three stay at room temp, and three go outside and get to experience a wide range of temperatures. Though with such small numbers, I doubt any results would be very conclusive, especially if clematis tend to germinate randomly.

Since I don't have any vermiculite and don't feel like making the 30 minute drive to home depot any time in the next few days, I'll use commercial seed starting mix, probably with some sharp sand thrown in. Or should I just use damp sand? Our room temps here are about 22-24C.

Miguel, the Dawn seeds came from Joan, after seeing her gorgeous plant, I think every seed germinated.
The Will Goodwins came from a different source and were totally unexpected, have 3 Alba Luxurians now and am really pleased, can't buy it locally as yet so at least I might get something close to the original.
Was reading some of the threads and the water was mentioned, I am on well water so no chlorine, I wonder if that does make any difference.
Have had 7 different types of Viticella seeds germinate in less than 3 months and viticella the species after 4 weeks.

Cool Maggiepie. I have sent Joan quite a few seeds--some this past fall. She is still waiting for germinations as well as I am and those include quite a few type IIIs amongst others. Mine were sowed in pots in November and none have germinated. I have just a couple of weeks ago gotten some seed from a fellow American Clematis Society member in Sweden and included amongst them were seed from a blue viticella, hendersonii, Venosa Violacea, a mixture of viticellas that originally came from England, and quite a few others that I can't remember right off the top of my head. They were done in the vermiculite baggie method but I have them in the fridge for a month or so before I will bring them back into warmer temps.

Found three seedlings from a pink clematis stans group of seeds I got from Garden North today in the baggies and vermiculite. Two of them had green top growth while the other one just had a small root sticking out of the bottom of the seed itself. I have tried potted them up so hope that they make it. They germinated in 16 days by keeping them in the moist vermiculite sitting on my seed starting mat.

If you need more Alba Luxurians seed let me know next year. My plant had a ton of seeds on it this past fall.

Helen, maybe it is your cooler house, or the water without chlorine. Your house must look like a jungle by now.

Miguel, I surely hope your Hendersonii seeds germinate and you get beautiful plants like the one I saw posted here last Fall from (I can't remember the lady).

I do too Joan. I remember the pictures you are talking about. I have something that was sold as a seedling of Hendersonii and it looks nothing like what was pictured here in the post you are referring to.

One good thing to report. This morning the two seedlings I tranpslanted from the pink clematis stans baggie showing green were up through the vermiculite that I covered them with after transplanting. The one where only the root was exiting the seed coat is not yet up but at least the two have survived thus far.Keeping my fingers crossed here on them.

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Joan, I was wondering the same thing about the water and coolness in the house, btw, I potted up 6 of your mystery viticellas a few days ago, there is another one with a root more than an inch long still in the baggie.
You're right, my house is full of trays of seedlings, I bought another 20021/2 inch pots last week with the trays they sit in so they can't tip over, and already I have used almost half of them.
Each tray holds 64 pots and just one of those I filled with Hidemi's mixed viorna, and I have heaps in other trays too.
I have become a slave to these seedlings arghhhhh.
Almost all of Miguel's seeds have germinated, cept the texensis, I only had one of them germinate and then I killed it somehow.
Really hoping to get at least one more of those.
Of course I blame you for all this, if I hadn't seen your gardens it would never have happened!!!

Helen, sorry for not realizing who you were earlier. I am so used to sending seeds out to various people that I know you by your real name and not your username here. Glad to hear that so many of the seed I sent have germinated. Like Joan said, it must be the temps there or what is not in your water!! LOL I wanna see pictures of your babies when you have a chance. Your greenhouse looks nice.

Sounds like you pot your seedlings up much later than I do. If I see a seed has germinated, I tend to snatch it out of the vermiculite and pot it up right away. I have a fear that they will die in the baggies!

By the way, did you mean to say that you had purchased another 200 2 and 1/2 inch pots? Sure hope so because if you meant something otherwise then you definitely started too many seeds this fall and winter! LOL

Haha Miguel, I noticed the lack of a space right after I hit send.
I wrote a long reply to you last night and looked at the preview and must have deleted it.
I tend to pot my seedlings up when I have half an inch or so of root, I think the texensis I murdered was potted up too early and the root shrivelled, same thing happened to an Addisonii but it was the only one I had at the time so I decided to stick the seed back into the soil and see what happened, and it actually grew another root, no top growth yet though.
When I have a lot of one seed germinating at the same time I tend to pot up some and leave some for a bit longer when I am running short of space and pots.
Would you believe I am picking out tiny blue poppy seedlings at the moment and potting them up?
Have to wear my reading glasses to even see them.
I am a beggar for punishment, no doubt about it.

I should sort out all the seedlings from your seeds and take a pic, not everything has any top growth as yet though.

Helen, after reading your post about most of my seeds germinating and then your comment about not everything having top growth, it made me realize a point that has not been made yet about what we mean by germination. Germination is technically the process in which a dormant seed begins to grow a root and top growth.

As you have noted and I have also seen in my seed starting experiments, sometimes some seed will put out a root shoot and the plant will take quite a time thereafter to actually put out any top growth. I think therein might explain some of the differences people may see in how long their "germinations" take to occur.

If you are using the traditional method to start clematis seed using potting mix and pots, then the seeds may have very well germinated and root development started, but until the plant puts out any top growth, no germination will actually be apparent. If you are using the baggie and vermiculite method of seed starting, you will record the plant as having germinated when the plant puts out a root-something that is easily visible by looking in the baggie and rolling the vermiculite around to see the roots.

Just musings on my part of something that just came to me as I read your posting and thought about it. Perhaps in the future, any mention of germination time should indicate the method of germination used and what we are referring to--root development for the baggie method or top growth for the traditional method.

I know that in at least one of my pots of seed I started in the traditional manner, I had a seed that somehow managed to work its way to the top of my mixture and I saw that a root had formed. I took the seed and buried it back in the soil in the pot but didn't really record it as a germination and won't until the seed produces top growth.

Interesting about the addisonii growing another root. Perhaps the root wasn't as badly damaged as you thought?? Would love to know if anyone with a botany background could chime in here with any background on this phenomenon since I know nothing about the genetics of seed development and how this can occur. I would have thought a seed had one chance of producing a root and if that aborted for whatever reason, the plant would have been doomed. Interesting nonetheless. Always learning something new! :0)

I can well imagine the patience it takes to pick out newly germinated seedlings of any poppy seed. When I look in my baggies, I see the newly germinated seeds most easily by taking them out in full sunshine. Think it must be about time to strengthen the prescription in my progressive lenses. LOL

Miguel,I agree entirely with what you say regarding germination, I have had this discussion with several people in the last few months.
One reason why I so much like the vermiculite and baggie method is because you can see what is going on, and if a seed looks like it is not viable you can pop the shell off and have a look.
No waiting around in vain hope of rotten seeds germinating.
One thing I have noticed is that different types of seeds act differently when they first germinate, they pop off the seed case and you have leaves almost immediately.
Others will just sit there for ages and finally put up a shoot from behind the seed, I am wondering if I should perhaps bury the seed with those types.
Lasiandras, Pitcheri, viornas just to name a few who put up the shoot.
Most of your type3 mix did the same thing.

Regarding the addisonii seed, it only had a half inch root when I planted it, then it sat there for a month or so doing nothing so I gave it a bit of a nudge with a bamboo skewer ( I use them for picking up tiny seedlings and poking the roots into the holes I make), it fell over and I picked it up and there was nothing attached to it, but it still looked plump so I half buried it in the soil again.
Of course it might just sit there for awhile and croak too, but while there's life there's hope.
Btw, I always stand in front of the window when I am looking through my baggies too, it's so much easier when the sun is shining.
The poppy seedlings are a bit of a challenge I must admit, but not as bad as Buddleias.sp?

Helen, glad to see you agree and how it could lead to confusion when we designate something as having germinated! I agree about being able to see the seeds in the baggies with vermiculite and knowing whether you just have the root out or both the root and top growth in addition. The only exceptions will be those seeds that are so small that they disappear into the vermiculite and I can't see them until they do germinate. Not an issue at all with the larger seeds!

I haven't attempted to try and take the seed coats off any seeds yet. I just will give them time and let them do their own thing since I figure I would jinx things and tear the seed apart trying to do so. It would make sense that being able to do so would not only identify those seeds with immature embryos but also aid in germination since the water would not have to penetrate the seed coat so that germination could occur. Can you explain how you do this?? Would be greatly appreciated although I still might be hesitant to try it.

Are you referring to hypogeal vs. epigeal (hope I spelled those correctly) germinations? The way I understand it the seeds who germinate hypogeally (is that a word??) have their cotyledons always remain below ground level and only the first true leaves will pop up above ground level. Those that germinate epigeally (again don't know if that is a word or not) are like bean seeds who develop a hook in the main stem and pull the cotyledons above ground level. They eventually drop off after the first true leaves develop.

Glad to know that I am not the only one who needs bright light to see those miniature germinations in those baggies!!!!

Let us know if that addisonii seed ever does develop another root and it puts out any top growth. I would be truly interested in hearing about that!

Thanks again for the continued conversation about seed starting as hopefully it will help others give it a go and they will have multiple methods to try when attempting it.

Helen, you inspired me so I dug some of my Venosa Violacea seeds that I had in a baggie with vermiculite out of the fridge and removed the seed coats on several of them. Some I left intact in case I royally screwed them up but I think they came out okay. I essentially popped off the end of the seed where the tail would be, opposite from where the seed would have been attached to the seedhead. Then I went around the edges popping off the side pieces until I had the seed more or less removed from the coating. Here are the results (sorry for the fuzzy picture).

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They went back into the baggie and into the fridge where they will remain until the end of March. Then the baggies will be moved back out into the warmth of the house.

Keep your fingers crossed.

They look fine to me Miguel, I don't normally try getting them off until they have been in the vermiculite for a few weeks or so, the vermiculite seems to soften them and I find they usually come off easily.
I just use a thumbnail where there is a bit of a crack and they usually just pop off.
Getting the atragenes popped is a bit more difficult though.
I have noticed that the larger seeds seem to start germinating faster once the shell is off, it happens too often for it to be a coincidence.

I had some VV seeds sent to me, I had one germinate in two months, the rest of them went black and mouldy.
Was happy to get one, and so far it is still alive.
Btw, I haven't given any of my viticella seeds any cold treatment and have had 8 different types germinate, maybe 7,I might be counting the Campanifloras.

Are you referring to hypogeal vs. epigeal (hope I spelled those correctly) germinations?

Miguel, not sure what's going on here with my replies.
Last one was rejected.
Anyway, the gist of what I said was I don't know the terminology for various parts of seeds etc, although I know a bit more since reading your post.
I need to get a good clematis book and pore over it.

Regarding the addisonii seedling, I did try to take a picture but couldn't get a clear enough close up, am really tempted into taking it out of the pot and having a good look at what is under the soil, no doubt I would kill it in the process.
Maybe it will croak when it uses up the resources in the seed, that might be all that's keeping it going.

Helen, you sure are having better luck with your seeds and I am. I have none of the large seeds yet germinating.

Miguel, I went looking for the earlier post of the hendersonii, and found it was on Oct 14th 07 by Cupshaped Rose. Her picture is no longer there, but I have it saved (I asked her last year first). This is one of the most beautiful blues I've ever seen.

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Helen, have noticed some strange stuff when I try to post also so you are not alone.

The seeds I got the seedcoats off of had been in vermiculite for a few weeks (middle of February if memory serves me correctly). I am thinking that if you soaked the seeds overnight and then peeled the coats off, that might work also before you even put them in the baggies with vermiculite. If it will speed up germination it seems to be worth a shot anyways!

As for giving the viticellas cold treatment, I am going back on old info given by others growing them the traditional way and the consensus was that quite a few seeds seem to germinate well in warm temps. after being treated in the cold. What I seem to forget is that my seeds were not sown in the traditional manner but rather the baggie and vermiculite way. Old habits die hard. Anyway they will all be coming out of the refrigerator the end of this month anyway

I do have some fusca seed from Kristl and the pack said that they germinated in the warm. They are currently on the seed starting mat along with the pink clematis stans seeds. May have to see if removing the seed coat on the fuscas facilitates the germination.

Here is what I got off the web and it is repeated in my botany book from college many moons ago:

In hypogeal germination the epicotyl extends and the cotyledons stay in the ground whereas in epigeal germination the hypocotyl extends and the cotyledons come out of the ground. (It is where the cotyledons end up that defines the terms - hypo for under and epi for above)

However in the Magnus Johnson book, he describes hypogeal germination as when the seed remains in the soil and epigeal germination as when the seed follows the cotyledons and come up off above ground.

Now I am confused since it seems that several references are in conflict by what actually happens. I am linking another article that shows pictures of what is being described.

Joan, I will only be so lucky to get something that beautiful and blue from the seeds I was sent. It sounds like I should have sent them to Helen to get her to germinate them. She seems to have the green fingers with clematis seed. ;)

Here is a link that might be useful: Two types of germination.

Thanks for the information as well as the link Miguel. I am sitting here trying to imagine saying that quickly 3 times.
I have an odd sense of humour, actually have spent a few minutes wondering how you pronounce nckvilledudes:-)

I really will have to look into purchasing a good reference book, am wondering if the Magnus Johnson book would be too technical for me.
Pity it isn't in a local bookshop so I can just go look through it before deciding.

As for my success with seeds so far, I put it down to the fact that the seed I was using was really fresh.
I did buy some seeds from one place and had no luck at all with them except for the Campanifloras .
All the rest, Integrifolia Rosea, pitcheri, viorna,fremontii, and viticella every single one rotted.
I gave some to a friend and the same happened with hers so I am wondering if the seeds were old.

Joan, that is such a gorgeous clematis, but doesn't your mystery viticella look a bit like that one?
I have been looking at the NARGS surplus seeds from their seed exchange, I think I will look into joining later this year.
They even had surplus Clematis ochroleuca, and versicolor and and and .........
We have sun today so hoping some of our snow will melt.

Helen, nc k ville dudes. Break it down like that and just say it. We live in NC (North Carolina) in town called Kernersville (K ville) and dudes is pretty explanatory.

The Magnus Johnson book is good but really meant for a person who is wanting specific identification criteria for identifying clematis. It tells you all you would ever want to know about the stems, leaves, petioles, inflorescences, flowers, tepals, flowers and buds, and a multitude of many other things. This part of the book comprises pages 137-856. I find those pages interesting if not somewhat rather technical. The first 136 pages include a variety of topics about clematis history, fragrance in clematis, planting and cultivation, specifics on varieties for different locations, clematis as a cut flower, hybridization, propagation, and a lot of morphological info about leaf arrangements on stems, seeds, leaf shapes, etc.

I know what you mean about fresh seed. I typically collect my seed over the course of the summer and then sow them later in the year. Next year I think I am going to try and start some as soon as it is picked. I have even seen reports that picking seed before it is totally brown/dried and planting it has helped some people speed up germination. Perhaps this is due to the concentrating effects of drying seed and the relative amounts of any chemical inhibitors present or it may just be a simple fact that a seed that is somewhat moist is going to better be able to absorb water to start the germination process than one that is totally dried out.

Last night I picked through a bunch of other seeds in my baggies and peeled off the seed coat. I did find a few that had nothing inside or what was inside was all mushy. Perhaps you got seed that look fertilized but in reality they weren't or that were somehow defective. I also know that on some of the wild viorna seed and seed from my own texensis seed, if you look closely at the seed, there is sometimes a small hole at one end of the seed where it appears that something has bored into the seed. I do know that on quite a few salvia plants, bees and other pollinators will often rip the flower down near the base of the flower structure for more ready access to the nectar. I think there must similarly be some type of insect that does this to clematis seed resulting in what appears to be a fully developed seed with nothing inside.

NC as intials or nc as in nick?
I had been doing nickvilledudes haha.

Think I will probably give the Magnus Johnson book a miss, I am finding it harder these days to retain anything I read.
Would you believe it wasn't too long ago that I knew the latin names of almost everything I had in my garden.
Think I have a case of gallopping dementia, it is true what they say you either use it or lose it.
I will however be looking out for a reference book, is there one you would recommend?

Regarding seed and freshness, I was given some Viticella Lisboa seeds and they were green, I really didn't think they would be viable but I have at least 6 germinated so far, and that is since January.
It will be interesting to see what happens when you try out your seed when really fresh.
I bet you have really good success.

I know what you mean about the holes from the borers, some of the hirsutissima and scottii, columbiana and tenuiloba seeds had some, but I had really good germinations with them, although the hirsutissimas are taking longer than the others.
The seed coats on those was really hard, and not so easy to get off,( they were sitting there not doing anything so I had to look ).

Helen, NC as in North Carolina. I do have a lot of people that do look at my username and think I am named Nick though.

I have tons of clematis books but none really go into the specifics that I would like to see such as germination data specific for clematis or if they do, they go way overboard and too much in depth for what I want to know. Will keep an eye out for one though.

Cool about the viticella Lisboa. That is one that I have always admired. I know of someone who plants viorna seed relatively green and gets faster germinations as opposed to using totally dried out seeds.

Helen, mine is similar shape, but more on the purply side, not this pretty blue. I only wish. Maybe one of your seeds with be lucky.

Miguel, I was thinking the same thing about trying some fresh seed next summer after reading several post about earlier germination. Will need to have a closer watch and pick before they are totally brown and dry.

We will have to compare notes Joan. I wonder if picking them earlier, not really green but more after they have yellowed up and gotten a sandy color, will make it more or less difficult to peel the seed coat off or if that will even be necessary using the fresher seeds?

Joan, I am wondering if that picture is the true colour.

I wondered the same thing Helen. Sometimes cameras do strange things to colors, especially the differing shades of lavender, purple, violet, and blues.

Helen, I haven't had any of my vitecilla germinate yet. I can only hope that at least you get a pretty blue one.
Miguel, yes, that's what I was thinking, wait til they start to turn yellowish. At that point, they should still have moisture and would not need to have the seed coat removed. We'll compare, although don't know where I'll plant more clematis. lol

Somewhat off topic but interesting that it should be mentioned. I have included a picture of a bee ripping open a flower from butterfly bush to get at the nectar late in the season.
Can't quite imagine how a clematis flower would be damamged in this manner as the flower is quite open.

Would some type of mite be responsible for damaging a seed in the formation similar to sunflower or hollyhock seed damage?
{{gwi:578013}}

Dana, in the case of clematis, the culprits are normally after the seed after it has developed and not when the clematis is in flower.

Joan, I know what you mean. After last summer's drought and the constant watering, ask me why I am starting clematis from seed.