If the wilted sections perk up when you water, then lack of water would be the problem.

If not, then they might be broken off or doing the clematis wilt thing. I have had type III's do it.

I agree with BorS. If the plant perks up after watering, then it isn't clematis wilt. The plant could also have something attacking its stems near root level causing the issue. I have several clematis planted near the foundation of the house and don't have a problem with them not getting enough rain. The trick is to get the plant's roots to grow out to where they can get to natural rainfall by watering not only near where the plant's stems exit the ground but also away from the foundation towards an open area. The clematis' roots will grow towards the water source over time thereby alleviating the issue of them being too close to the foundation.

I have never had true clematis wilt on any type III clematis but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. Once again, clematis don't read books!

Deanna, I forgot to say that it is however possible to overwater clematis. Provided your soil is not straight clay and you dug a hole and overly amended it with organic matter, this shouldn't be a problem. In my area with the clay soil I garden in, digging a hole and overly amending it with too much soil amendments will cause the plant to rot from the roots up due to the swimming pool effect!

Various type 3's can get wilt. IME and supported by most of my readings, it has really nothing to do with the pruning group (except very tangentially) and everything to do with the degree of hybridization. The closer the clematis in question is to a species, the less inclined it is to wilt. In other words, any of the large flowering hybrids can be prone to wilt regardless of their pruning group. Group 2 is pretty much entirely comprised of LFH's, so wilt is common in this classification. Group 3 has both LFH's, species and a few hybrids very closely related to their species parents so evidence of wilt is mixed in this grouping. Group 1's are pretty much entirely species clematis and I've never seen wilt occur in this grouping.

As to overwatering, I think that the better the drainage is the more difficult it is to overwater these plants. I have an armandii planted at the corner of my porch and it and the age of my gutters have resulted in the failure of the gutter/downspout system at that location so that water simply pours down directly on the vine's roots when it rains. Because the soil is well amended and very well draining, the vine is unscathed by this drenching. In fact, it seems to thrive on the excess moisture and has responded with extremely rampant and luxuriant growth.

Okay,now after further thinking I have thought of 3 other type IIIs that have wilted, and I use that term generically, since none of my clematis that have wilted regardless of pruning class have ever had the black leaves associated with the description of wilt I am familiar with. First ever to wilt for me was Durandii. It arrived along with Roguchi and Arabella from Chalk Hill one spring and all three were planted on the rusty iron chair. Within two days, the plant began wilting and never recovered even with watering. After talking to Murray at Chalk Hill, he suggested that perhaps the plant suffered transplant shock and that I cut the entire mess back and keep it watered over the summer. Easy to do since it was right there with Roguchi and Arabella. It didn't return that summer or ever again so Murray replaced it with another one that was planted elsewhere in the garden since Roguchi and Arabella had grown too large. In its new position it has never yet had wilt.

Number two was Florida Seiboldii which wilted the first two years in the garden. The first time right after flowering and the second time just as the plant began flowering. Both years the plant was cut back but after the second time it has been a no show after a year.

Just this spring Solina which was planted last fall from Silver Star Vinery wilted after it got 3 feet tall. Total wilt on all stems all the way to the ground. She has been whacked back and is up and growing strongly again as I type.

I even had a montana Broughton Star purchased from Chalk Hill wilt. Two weeks after planting it starts its wilting act. I cut it back and it never returns in two years. Since then I have planted C. virginiana and Mrs. T. Lundell on either side of where Broughton Star was planted and both are doing well. Go figure!

I guess for me wilt has been such a no brainer after it happened once that I don't think about it. I now just whack any plant that wilts back and wait to see what happens.

Again, I think that the root cause for the condition is improper balance of roots and top growth. The type II hybrids may be more prone to it due to all the hybridization that has gone on, but the type IIs and Is have gotten it IME and even the species clematis texensis. Secondly, another contributing factor may be overfertilization which causes the plant to put on too much top growth while at the same time the roots are struggling to catch up. I see way too much hype about how clematis are heavy feeders and I think over amending the soil and then adding too much top dressing may contribute to the problem.

My Perle d'Azurs did get pretty good sized considering I just planted them last fall. I hadn't fertilized them by the time the wilt happened on the first one, but it was about 2 weeks into flowering when it happened. When I watered, it did not perk back up. It seemed to happen pretty quickly. One day the leaves were droopy, next day they were browning. I left the stem as is in case new growth would come out on it, but it didn't, so I cut it back to about 15" tall, and the stem was green. However, no new growth has started.

With the 2nd Perle, it happened the same way - droopy one day, water didn't help, browning the next day.

I don't think it's the bathtub effect, because I tilled compost into the whole bed, not just the planting hole.

Do you think I should start watering them more? I don't want them to lose any more stems. I love them - they're gorgeous!

Deanna

Lack of water isn't the problem since the affected growth did not perk up when you watered. Sometimes Clematis grow faster than their roots can support and then entire stems die off. Cut off the affected growth.

Agree with BorS. If watering did help, it isn't wilt due to lack of water. Cut off the wilted portion and in time they will come back.

I'm not going to say wilt can't happen with group 1's or even many group 3's, Miguel, only that it is far less common. The bulk of the literature supports the notion that most species and small flowering clematis are very resistant to wilt and that its occurrence tends to be most prominent with the large flowering hybrids. My own experience sure supports this - since species and the smaller flowered varieties are the types of clematis I prefer, I have experienced virtually no wilt in my garden.

First off I was half asleep at 3:25 this am, but what I meant to say was that "If watering didn't help, it isn't due to lack of water".

Good way of thinking gardengal. Saying "can't" or "won't" with regards to anything generally comes back to bite you since once you say it, it normally will happen! :)

I had a Ville de Lyon that wilted severly every year. I shovel pruned it last year. My second Ville de Lyon also has wilted but seems to finally be outgrowing it. None of my other Type IIIs have wilted but they are all new within the last year.

I'm the one who did this original post, which is 3 years old. These are 3 1/2 year old plants by now. I didn't have wilt in 08 or 09, but am having it now. It's not because the top growth is too heavy. It doesn't have any more top growth than it had 3 years ago. This is frustrating! I'm losing some of my lilies too.

Does anyone know if Perle d Azur is prone to this?

Deanna

Are your lilies near the clematis?

Nope. Different bed. It's just frustrating because two of the things I look forward to each year - clematis blooms and lily blooms - are going by the wayside. If the lily bulbs have rot, they won't bounce back. And forget about replacing them. The new bulbs would get the fungus from the soil. It's very disappointing.

Deanna

Your Clematis should be many times the size that they were in 2007.

Have you been cutting them back hard every early spring?

I have not had any Type IIIs not grow significantly larger in their first three years.

All Type IIIs year one:

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Year three:

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Have you had a lot of rain?
Do you have poor drainage?
Do you fertilize?

We have had a lot of rain, but they're next to the foundation so they don't get a lot of rain. The drainage is good - the bed is amended with compost. I give them Osmocote every spring, but I haven't done it yet this year.

I agree that they should be much bigger now. I have another clematis that I planted the same time I planted them, and it's much bigger and fuller.

Deanna

I also meant to answer the question about pruning. Yes, I prune hard every February.

Deanna