Msugrl, hello.

Do you have any idea how to take pictures? I would love to see the mix.

I thought you were going to use a bagged mix, peat based. Now we are talking something different. What does that mix consist of? If it's mostly bark, in other words bark based with a small bit of peat and other bigger particles? You may not need perlite at all.

Maybe another member who lives in our zone that is familiar with that mix can share if they have used it.
What your goal is I think, is to use a mix that is open, porous, and allows good oxygen exchange every time you water. One that dries out in less than a week and one that allows you to water/rain freely without fear of rot or salt deposits from faucet water and or fertilizer.

If you work with these concepts, you will be the best one to make your trees very happy. I can guide you, but what you decide to use will be based on your cultural habits, ability to understand how important it is to use free draing mixes for you trees, and micro climates you provide.

Let me know what you do and a picture of the mix and if you should decide it to drain ever further would be great!:-)

Oro Blanco? NICE. I have one that is doing GREAT and if you would like, I could take a pic for you:-)

Mine is in the 5.1.1 mix exact to the recipe.

Mike:-)

Mike,

I've been looking for a porous mix to mix in with perlite, And on the bag of the espoma orchid mix it says it drains well, so I thought I could tweek it to drain better with perlite and maybe some orchid bark, if I can find it, so hopefully farmer john's will have it. I just wonder what kind of ratio I'll have to use to make it drain well enough, and make it nice enough for the roots to grow in, it just seems like to me there has to be some degree of soil for the roots to grow in, LOL, but I'm a newbie when it comes to citrus and I could be wrong. I just wonder how long this mix will last before it breaks down as well? I'd like it to last at least 1.5 yrs when it will be about that time for me to transplant the little guy into a slightly bigger pot.

I've never actually seen the espoma orchid mix, but in the ingredients it says it has fir bark,and perlite. Here's the picture of it below in the link.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002YIRH52?tag=mybifawe-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B002YIRH52&adid=1G75NE3MWXAKDD5QNYEF&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orchidgrowingtoday.com%2FOrchid-Products.html

so in short, I will probably use this mix and add in perlite to help it drain better. Do you think this mix will be good for my tree and won't break down really fast? what kind of ratio should I use? I really want this little tree to make it, LOL! I'll post a picture of the mix when I get it, I'll get it either today or tomorrow.

I would love to see a picture of your oroblanco! :) I've heard their flowers smell wonderful and perfume your entire home!

MSUgrl

oh forgot to ask, I have a moisture meter, and how dry should my tree get before I should water it again? (its on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being saturated and 1 like a desert).

oh, and would espoma tree tone or E.B. Stone citrus and fruit tree food be good fertilizers? How often should I feed my tree and how much? I know sometimes they go by the diameter of the trunk, but my yearling's trunk will be so small that it will be hard to get a diameter on it LOL.

Sorry I keep peppering you with so many questions Mike, I am just determined to have the oroblanco live to a ripe old age XD.

Thanks again for all the help,
MSUgrl

Msugrl.

Please, don't be in a rush to us it just yet. I talked to John I know there and he is going to send me a sample of it enough to fill an eight inch pot along with a sample of the Cactus one.

He says the Orchid one is very chunky and already has perlite in it. It may dry out perfectly fine without added amendments. Lets' see the product up close first, ok?
We want to get this right:-)

I have never used those fertilizers you asked about. All I use is Foliage Pro and Osmocote. I do have the Espoma tree tone for citrus and I am still testing that one.

I don't rely on moisture meters at all. Instead I use the weight of the pot or a wooden dowel stick during the colder months once the plants are brought indoors with lower light levels and when growth slows.
Usually when your mix is VERY porous, I am not worried about checking at most times unless I notice the mix taking its time to dry out.

I am sure any porous mix like that will take its time to break down which is great. That is our ultimate goal for sure:-)

Mike:-)))

Oh that's great that you'll get a sample of it! :). I won't get my tree until Thursday next week, so should I wait to get this espoma orchid mix until you get a look at it? May save myself a couple of bucks if you decide the mix isn't worth it. and my tree will come in a small plastic container, so I'll be able to let it settle into its new environment before I switch it to the clay pot that I have for it (and this pot will provide great drainage while looking pretty! a bonus for me :D).

It looks like dyna grow is liquid while osmocote is granular? if I were to use a fertilizer that was granular would it dissolve and be absorbed well in a porous mix?

Thanks for all your help! I'm sure with your expertise my oroblanco will become quite healthy! :) I'm ordering it from 4 winds. on the website they just reccommend the soil to be porous and to mix peat moss with redwood shavings. So I guess your right when you say there isn't just one formula out there to keep your tree healthy and happy. I wonder what fertilizer 4 winds uses, or if they just make their own? who knows lol!

Thanks again, looking forward to hearing more of your expertise!

msugrl

Oh and just curious, what kind of lighting system do you use for your plants in the winter? your winter is very similar to the winter I experience in MI too, and Houston gave me some great ideas, but her winters are much shorter and usually sunnier than our winters LOL. So what kind of lighting do you use? hopefully some are not super expensive XD lol its hard being a student sometimes when it comes to money.

Thanks!
msugrl

Yes. He is going to send me out these samples today in fact. So, I'll tell you if it's worth it:-

Osmocote granular is a slow release at a continual feed depending on the temps and how often you water.
The Foliage or Dyno-gro is a great soluable which gives you total control on how much your tree will get.

You can use both or one or the other. I use both when I know I am going to be a bit lazy about fertilizing often and on schedule. I use just the liquid fertilizer when I know I will be consistent with my fertilizer regimend ro when we have an extra rainy season.
Glad to help:-)

Mike

oh is there an organic equivalent to Foliage Pro? just curious :)

Hey Mike

Have you gotten a look at that orchid mix yet? Does it meet your standard of approval? :)

Msugrl

Oh goodness! Let me take a picture of it and come back later! It's horrible Msugrl!

You'd be best to let me send some too you and just pay for postage! I don't understand why they don't make a GREAT mix more accessible for many people.
Why is it that MG is in every store at every corner, and not a mix like Fafard or mine that I use that citrus love? lol

I'll be back with a pic. You should see the Cactus mix. I don't know how anyone can grow a cactus in that without rotting them out?

Mike:-)

I'm so glad that I waited then! LOL

Here is the link to the Fafard website. What potting mix from here do you recommend?

http://www.fafard.com/Products/LightWeightMixes.aspx

also on the 4 winds site they reccommend sweetwater soil. Have you heard of it? 4 winds says it drains well, but that's what other "premium" mixes say about their product too. Here's the link to it below.

http://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/store/growing-tools-a-accessories.html?page=shop.product_details&category_id=2&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=42

Thanks again for all the help! I want to make one last effort to find a good source for a great mix before I inconvience you by having you mail me mix ;) LOL!

Mike,

So I have been calling around to any nurseries that I can think of in my area, but the best things that I can find to help me is forest bark, and perlite. the person I talked to said this forest bark is made for orchids which usually like to be planted in this bark, and that its made to be in a pot (so its not in large pieces).

I've found a potting "recipe" that people are talking about on here, it's...
4 screened perlite
3 screened bark
2 screened Turface or screened DE

What is DE? another name for turface? perhaps this will work for me.

oh, I also contacted 4 winds to see what fertilizer they use for their trees, and they said one of the types they use is romeo 24-14-14. I'm definitely willing to buy this. It sucks that I won't be able to raise the tree organically, but I'd rather have it thrive.

I also found this!!! the holy grail! LOL! this youtube video shows newbies how to make a 5-1-1 mix. this link says the mix is this formula.
5 parts pine fines, 1 part perlite, 1 part peat + 1 Tbsp of dolomitic lime. I may be able to do this, I have the perlite already, and I can get fine forest bark, and I can probably find peat, though I'm not sure I can find the dolomitic lime (what is this?)

LINK:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPOATQ3nxXY

msugrl

Msugrl! Is that the You Tube video that Greenman made? He made one, but I can not open the one you linked here. If it is, he comes here all the time. He is my friend.

You are too funny..lol

Romeo is actually a sounds like a good fertilizer! If you can get your trees to look as good as theirs with that stuff, then I say "Go for it" !

DE is the same stuff as Floor Dry. You can buy that at any Auto parts store. It's the stuff they put on the floor to absorb oil spills. It works a lot like 'Turface'.

The 'Fafard' mixes I would recommend are the 51b and the Nursery Mix. Would you believe that even though they are a much higher quality mix and well draining, I still sift out a lot of the peat? In my area, the less peat the better. You would aim for the 'heavy weight' mixes, since they are the ones that would contain the most percentage on bark.

Yikes, I forgot to take photos of the mixes I received. You would not believe how lousy they are.lol I will post them tomorrow:-) I am so glad you did not waste your money on these. I have no use for either.

Have a good night, it's way past my bed time.

MIke:-)

Hey Msugrl....I quickly wanted to post you what those mixes look like.

I would never use the first one for Citrus and certainly never use the Cactus mix for Cactus. I think you will be glad you didn't order the stuff. The first pic is of the mix you almost ordered.

{{gwi:606600}}

{{gwi:606601}}

Cactus mix...No way..lol When you grab it, it binds together!

{{gwi:606602}}

{{gwi:606603}}

OMG!!! those mixes really do look awful! LOL and I'm inexperienced when it comes to growing citrus, so that really says something.

Not sure if it is greenman that made the youtube video. But the user name on the youtube video is redshirtcat. Here's the link again, try copying and pasting it if the link doesn't work here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPOATQ3nxXY

I'm going to call around to see if anyone carries the fafard 51b mix, and if not I'll contact someone from the fafard site for help.

The romeo fertilizer is granular, if I do end up using the fafard 51b mix will I be able to use a granular fertilizer with it?

Thanks again for saving me from purchasing those horrible mixes!!
MSUgrl

Here's a picture of the romeo fertilizer. It looks like the grains are really small, which is good.

My tree will be here tomorrow!! So exciting! I'll take a picture and post it here once he arrives :D

MSUgrl

The Romeo fertilizer is a water soluable.

Not to be mixed in with your mix, but mixed in with water then feed:-)

What kind of mix did you finally go with or what is the one you plan on using? That we need to know for sure so you are ready for when your tree arrives.
It will also help us determine how often you water and how often you fertilize.

Glad to help:-) Gotta love the mixes, right?lol

Greenman28 made a very nice video. O shall have to hook you up once I find it:-) I have not seen the one you speak of yet. I will when I get home though. Thank you.

Mike

I'm going to try to get the fafard mix 51b mix, hopefully one of the nurseries in my area has it, if not I'm calling the company to see if I can order a bag. When the tree comes it won't have bare roots, it will come in a plastic container, and the 4 winds site says it can comfortably stay that way for the first few weeks (if it is your choosing to do this). Here's 4 wind's actual response.

"Open the package as soon as possible and check the moisture in the soil. Place in a well lighted location. Water as needed to maintain moist but not overly saturated roots. It is best to repot the tree into a larger container (~10" diameter) within a month of delivery to give the roots more room to grow."

so while I am figuring out my potting mix situation, my tree can be comfortable for at least a month (at by the end of the first month, it'll probably be time for it's first feeding anyways).

Let me know if that is the video Greenman made :)!

msugrl

If I can't get the fafard mix, then I guess I'll have to make my own, with forest bark (that I can get at my nursery), perlite and peat. Hopefully I won't have to do this.

Oh, 4 winds offers a sweetwater potting mix on their site (though its expensive, I could always contact the company itself to see if I can get it cheaper).

What do you think about this mix? (in case I can't get fafard for some reason) The link is below.

http://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/store/other-edibles.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&category_id=2&product_id=42

Msugrl: What kind of mixes do you have access too?

What kind of ingredients do you have or could you get?

I looked at the Four Winds soil, but I am not sure about it. It sounds kind of dense and one that would break down, decompose and hold water working against your tree.

Why don't you give them a call and ask Kerry what the ingredients are and teh percentage of each to see if it is worth your while and the price? It could be no better than a bag of MG.

It would be cheaper to put your own together if you can't find a good mix or amend one to meet your trees need.

Once I get home, I will try and find Josh's video for you.
If you plan on making your own, you will need 'lime', ok.

Mike

I don't think I have any access to good premade mixes. I'm not sure though, I still have to call. the ingredients that I know I can get is forest bark, and perlite for sure, not sure about the rest.

I'll try to give Kerry a call, I've been really busy lately because my law school exams are coming up in about a week and a half, so I may have to put all this on the backburner until my exams are done. luckily my tree should be ok for 2 more weeks until I figure what to do about by mix situation. Hopefully I can just order the fafard mix and it won't cost me a fortune.

MSUgrl

Thought I'd pop and and give the link. :)

He also has one specifically about screening ingredients.

VP

Here is a link that might be useful: Josh's Vid (Potting Mix - making 5-1-1 )

VP

Hey, that was so kind of you! Thanks so much and it's nice to meet you.

Mike:-)

Mike,

My oroblanco is here!!! It's much bigger than what I anticipated, it looks very healthy, I'm so pleased! I just watered it a little bit and set it out under the shade of my maple to get some air, tomorrow he'll be going out in the sun.

VP, thanks so much for the link, I'll watch it tonight!

MSUgrl

Mike,

Is it normal for the top leaves to be chewed up a bit when you first get a tree from 4 winds? I've attached a picture so you can see. Everything else seems good though.

MSUgrl

so the pot I had in mind might be slightly too big. Its circumfrence is 9.5". What do you think?

oh btw, found a place near me that sells fafard 52, its ingredients are: Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss (30%), processed pine bark, vermiculite, perlite, starter nutrients, wetting agent & Dolomitic limestone.

Think this will work well as a mix?

msugrl

MSUgrl, I got a chewed up tree, too. About six or seven of the leaves had real damage to them, and it's a fairly small tree. I wrote about it, actually, because I was surprised and thought they would want to know. They apologized but didn't seem too concerned. They told me I could take the leaves off it bothered me

Oh...I am sooooo happy with you! Look at that! You got such a beautiful tree and you found teh mix. Yahoo....!!lol

That pot does look a little too big, in fact, a lot if you are not going to use the exact mixes I use. The Fafard mix will stay wet much longer than what I use, but will be much better than most bagged mixes.

If you want to use a pot that size, I would get a strainer and strain out most of the peat from the Fafard mix and set that aside. I would also set the bark left behind aside.
Then here comes the fun part! Take 5 parts of the great bark pieces left behind and toss in one part of the peat you have. Yes. It would be perfect! That is what I do with the 51 mix. If there is already perlite in it, you may not have to add any!

If you don't plan on doing that, then use a much smaller pot. I would fill a pot to test out the mix and water it. If it only seems moist to you after an hour or so after you have watered it, you are GOLDEN!

What a beautiful tree. I have yet to see how in the world they get such huge root systems on their trees! At least I have the green look on my side:-)

Those bites are common. Mine come like that too. Probably prior damage from earwigs. No big deal:-)

Mike

Mike,

I think I'm going to find a slightly smaller pot, I think that bigger pot will be perfect for it when its about 2.5 yrs old.

Good to know that the minor damage on the leaves aren't a big deal!

Yes the root system is huge! the roots are peaking out from the bottom of the small black container it came it. I will have to find a tall, well draining container with about a circumfrence of 7-8 inches.

also, could I use a bamboo skewer stick (used for making shish kabobs) to test the moisture of the soil? I've heard moisture meters are almost useless.

if it is a good idea to use a bamboo stick, how moist should it be? how dry should I let it become before I water again?

oh and one last question! what do you do about lighting when winter rolls around? I know you have lots of babies, I wonder how you care for all their light needs in the winter? what lighting needs should I think about to care for my tree once autumn comes and there isn't much sun anymore?

Thanks!
MSUgrl

Hello!

I never use Bamboo skewer sticks. I am not sure if they will take up the moisture as good as a good wooden dowel made of pine the diameter as a pencil. You can buy these at any Home Improvement store in the lumber section.

If you stick it deep into the root zone and it's cool or moist to the touch, like the touch on your wrist or your cheek, then it's too early to water.

Now as for lights, that is debatable. I don't like mine to be active all winter, so I let the natural south/west/ or east facing sunlight care for them in very cool unheated rooms.
Others like to provide lots of light, warmth, and actively grow them.
I have my reasons not to, but maybe others that do can give you some ideas?

You are going to have lots of fun with your tree! Whhat a root system. That is the way mines come. A shallow wider pot like that of an azelea pot would be better with the roots spread out. To keep those bottom roots alive and healthy if you should decide to go with a deep pot, make sure your mix is very porous drying out evenly right to the bottom or use wicks.

Beautiful plant and an Oro at that!

Mike:-)

Mike,

i'll definitely get a thin dowel.

My goal for the winter is to make sure my tree stays healthy, keeps its leaves, and its leaves are a deep green.

Houston posted a picture of her winter set up, but I wonder if that would be enough? houston gets much sunnier winters than I do in MI. I plan on placing my tree near a window so it can still get light, but our winters are overcast, so it would get overcast light, and then I would supplment with a grow light.

Would huston's type of lights work if I placed my tree by the window in the winter for overcast light, then supplemente with lights like houston's lights?

MSUgrl

Hey Msugrl!

I have drifted away from lights for so long now, that I really don't know if it will work for you or how your plants will react.
But, what I can tell you is that you need to match the amount of light with the amount of warmth/cold you provide.

In other words,
too much light and cold temps = leaf drop
not enough light and warm temnps = leaf drop

I think one whom grows with lights might be able to help you. I would probably start a new thread asking this very question and describe in detail where they will sit, what kind of sun you will provide, how close to the window they will be, what you will keep temps will be in that room and so on.

Remember too that acclimating your trees to from sunny outdoors to indoors is a must to avoid leaf drop.

Do remember this, citrus will hand on just fine in a suuny window all winter if facing the south, west or east.
If facing the south, you may even get growth and flowering.
If facing the others, at least your tree will remain green and hold on until the spring.

If you encouarge growth with warmth and lights, then you run the risk of pests. Please keep this in mind.

I would also ask Houston for help since she seems to do well with lights and see if she could spread some 'light'
:-)

Mike

Mike,

I'll definitely keep that cold/warm ratio in mind, and acclimating it from winter to summer and vise versa.

I think I'll start that new thread right now :)

MSUgrl

Hey Mike,

This pot is probably too small for the tree right? lol! its root system is so massive, I don't think this pot is tall enough (this pot was in my garage).

MSUgrl

Hey, Msugrl!

Why don't you use that larger pot but make it a bit shallower by putting peanuts on the bottom or even big size park bark nuggets!

It will take up space in the lower portion rising the level of teh soil higher so your roots will be more shallow, get it?
That bigger pot is wide enough for good growth while you won't have to worry roots rotting deep in that pot.

If you were using the 5.1.1 mix or the gritty like I do, then pot size wouldn't matter at all.:-)
You might even be able to get away with it if you sift out most of the peat in your Fafard mix using only one part of that peat to 5 parts of the left over bark.

Mike

Mike,

I have some left over woodchips still in its bag in my garage (used as mulch, I'll take a picture tomorrow) would that work?

the roots are peaking out on the bottom of the plastic pot it came in, so if I fill it with some bark nuggets will I have to squish the roots a little bit to get it in the pot since they seem so long (but not very wide?).

Thanks for the good idea! I won't be able to get the fafard mix until around August 18th (last day of my final exams), while I am getting the mix I will also take a look at the pots as well.

what do you reccommend in a pot for this plant that would be ideal? I'd really like a pot that drains well and is perfect for the development of the tree, but if I could find one that does all this and is pretty to look at too would be perfect! :) lol

Thanks!
MSUgrl

Hey Mike,

I'm potting my tree as soon as my fafard 52 mix arrives in the next few days, when I do repot my tree, should I leave the support stick in? (you can see in 2 posts above where I have a picture of my tree there is a skinny support post that is tied to the trunk of the tree).

MSUgrl

Hey MSUgrl! How have you been?

If you find that after you transplant your tree it is wobbly, I would. But I would use a much looser tie than the green ones I see on your tree.

I think you could even use a twist of some sort that wont be tight around the trunk and only until you see that the tree can support itself.

Oh you are going to LOVE that mix once you get it! Your tree might not need any support at all since the mix supports the roots well.

Mike

I'm doing great, thanks! so relieved that my final exams are done and I can be human again LOL.

Then I'll probably keep the post on it to be sure that it is supported (i'll take it off probably in the spring), and I'll use some gift ribbon that I have to tie the post to the trunk, I'll just tie it on slightly looser than the green ties that are on now so it won't be so tight around the trunk.

So excited that this mix will work out well for me! it took me forever to find it! the last place that I thought carried it in their store messed up, I drove there (it was a good 40 minute drive) and found out that they didn't have it! that it was a "misunderstanding" but that their on site worker could make me a custom mix. They showed me what her mixes looked like and they looked no different than regular bagged potting soil! LOL (Granted, I'm sure she had good knowledge on how to make mixes, just not the one I need). I politely declined and requested that they order me a bag of fafard 52, and the guy actually started to argue with me about how I need a custom mix for my citrus (this was after I had to convince him that yes, I was indeed growing a dwarf citrus tree in a pot in my house, and that yes this was possible, that many people do this and are successful at it). I tried to explain to him that the fafard 52 mix is a specialized mix that would work for a citrus, but he wouldn't take no for an answer, and told me he would contact the woman who makes these custom mixes and that she would call me about ordering the fafard 52 mix. That was several days ago and I still haven't heard from her LOL! I can't believe how rude they were! I don't think the guy took too kindly to me when I cut him off after he was trying to convince me for the 10th time to take one of their custom mixes instead, geeeeez! -_-;;; At that point I just drove away, feeling pretty irritated. I finally contacted the head customer service rep. on the Fafard site for help and she directed me to a place in Belleville MI (granted it's pretty far for me too, but at least I know they have them, I called and made sure they had them, and that they actually have them on site and not some other fafard product LOL), in the meantime I ordered a large bag of 52 online, to ensure that I have something to put my tree in LOL! it's been a rough couple of days, but I'm not going to allow someone to push me around into buying something that I didn't come there for, so I'm so glad I've finally gotten what I need.

and my tree is still doing very well in the container it came in, which is great! I can't wait to get it settled in its container and once it has settled in after about a week or so, I can give it a little hit of the romeo fertilizer I bought.

thanks for your advice!
MSUgrl

I'll post a picture once I get it potted. By the way, whats the best way to pot this little guy in the new pot? he seems really snug in his container, how can I get it out without harming it?

oh, I also got another pot for it and its the right size :).

MSUgrl

hey mike!

so I finally got the 52 mix today! and I've planted the tree in its pot! yay! lol. Here are some pictures. Do the roots look healthy? I hope this mix works! How does everything look to you?

MSUgrl

picture #2

picture #3

pic #4

I expected the mix to look grittier with all the pine bark, vermiculite and perlite in it. I really hope this will be a great mix!

msugrl

hey mike,

I didn't feel great about all that peat in there, so I ended up sifting it out! it looks so much better and I think it will work just fine now. I was looking at the picture of the roots I posted on here yesterday, and I hope I don't have root rot, but I took a picture of the roots of the plant that were peeking through the bottom of the container the tree came in on the first day I received it, and they were the same color, so hopefully it'll be ok, there's absolutely no signs of root rot on the tree itself, it's still looking very happy.

Thanks again for all your advice! I'll post a picture of the new mix its sitting in later today :D

MSUgrl

Hey!
Looks like Mike and the others have hooked you up with some great advice!
Thanks for linking my video here, as well.

Josh