Although I don't read every single post written on Gw, it's possible I missed Tamara saying she was going out of the citrus selling business..If so, I apologize..
So Tam, are you going out of business?
Millet I am NOT confused..other than listening to you once again interfere when I am not talking to you, but to another person.

My trees were shipped Tues. so I stayed home all day yest. waiting for them. Never came. UPS doesn't work weekends so now they are in a warehouse in Oak Creek -25 miles south of MKE & I won't get them till Mon.!!!! Ruth emailed me & said UPS is behind (FL) because of hurc's. Whaaaaaa
Patty

Patty, I hope your trees do fine in the warehouse. I'd imagine Fl's undergoing not only mail but all types of problems, and everything is on hold. They should be okay though..Both Ruth and Anna package trees to last..
One time something came up, and I couldn't open an order from Briteleaf (2 trees) for 3 days..so, citrus sat in the box almost a wk from shipping date..trees were both fine, no leaf drop..
Do you have UPS tracking on your computer? Toni

I had no tracking #'s. Ruth tracked it for me. She's the one who said it was in Oak Creek, so I won't have to track it...I know it'll be here MOn. It ticks me off--had to spend few hours in courthouse Fri. & put it off till Mon JUST for those trees getting here. Now I'll have to leave a note for ups to leave them behind gate (if they will).

Toni, I just have to comment on this quote from you.
"it's possible I missed Tamara saying she was going out of the citrus selling business..If so, I apologize.. So Tam, are you going out of business?"
Tam never said she was going out of business. That's why some people told you to read up on the posts. Tam said her citrus was quarantined & she cannot sell citrus "at this time". So you see Toni, sometimes you are too quick to respond without reading all that's said. I'm sure I'm guilty of this too--esp. after I have a glass of my homade wine LOL. It's OK, we all make mistakes :)
Patty

Patty, I know her trees are being quarantined. And I also KNOW she will be selling trees in the future..she's in the business..my point exactly..
In other words, no matter how long it takes before her plants are out of quanatine, she WILL soon be selling them, AGAIN. Therefore, as I stated, because a seller wants people to buy from them, such as a car dealer, I don't take their words at face value.
If I had the room I'd order Ruth/Harris's 5 gallon tree..
So, Patty, I did read the post about Tamara's trees, but was, I guess you'd call it, being sarcastic asking if she was going out of the business. Toni

Toni - You are casting pearls before swine. As Millet said, don't worry about it. Let it go. Happy citrus gardening everybody!

AAE, that's exactly what I intend on doing..Letting go.
I posted this thread for those ppl who are looking for larger trees at more than resonable prices. So, if anyone is interested in buying a larger than 1 gallon tree, Harris has them availble.
I am in no way affiliated with Briteleaf or Harris; I'm just a consumer who loves buying plants. Toni

And, I'm glad you posted this here! I ordered trees from Harris & wouldn't have otherwise.
My goodness, I meant no harm. I said what I said in a nice way & admitted I make mistakes too! Never meant to offend you Toni & don't know how I offended someone else.
Anyway, looking FWD to getting my trees tomorrow & Happy Growing! :)

My 5 gallon Meiwa Kumquat arrived yesterday, and it is easily twice as large as my 3 - 4 gallon Meiwa, taller and broader. It is a little over 5ft tall and less than 4ft wide.I think my 3 - 4 gallon plant will need a few years to reach that size.

Mage, where did you order your 5gal Kumquat? Was it bought at Harris? If so, I just might order one..LOL..Please let me know soon..I wouldn't mind a big Ponderosa, w/those large fruit..What size is the trunk? Toni

Toni - Where do you intend on keeping this Ponderosa Lemon? LOL..

Toni, you'll need a BIGGER HOUSE! LOL
Mage, was the box your tree came in crushed? I got 2 boxes same day & they looked like a refrigerator sat on them!Some leaves fell off & the one tree w/ fruits lost a couple but no branches were broken--amazingly!
You said your Meiwa is 5' tall & 4 ' wide?? My 5 gal Moro is less than 3' H (from soil) & less than 2 ' wide!! Also, the leaves are wierd on 3 of the 5 plants. Will post on another thread with pics. Maybe someone can tell if there's anything wrong with them.
Patty

Harris asked me to let them know how packaging was so I emailed them to let them know. I also mentioned your (Mage) 5 ' high 5 gal meiwa & the size of my Moro, & Ruth said yours has to be same as mine unless you ordered a bigger pot size. Also, I described the curled leaves on 3 of the trees. in the curled part on underside, is a thin scab-like film. On one of the leaves there was some webbing & I used a toothpick to look inside rolled up leaf & I think it was a small worm-like thing that I squashed w/ toothpick. Ruth said it was Leaf minor & thought they got rid of it--& that it won't hurt the plant. Is this true?
{{gwi:635988}}
Look at that top leaf--there are many like it. Some are rolled up like a skinny joint with no tobacco in it LOL. A lot of those leaves are falling off. Most are only brown on bottom. Tops are still green but curled & deformed looking.
Patty

I had the same damage on my plant, but otherwise the tree looks healthy, with a lot ripening fruit. I removed quite a few leaves, since I don't want any over-wintering larvae in MY house. The box arrived intact, but the pot it came in bit the dust. I took that opportunity to replant in a new treepot filled with a CHC mixture. Re-potted my other Meiwa as well. I lost about 5 fruits during shipping, and I don't think a weekend in some unheated warehouse helped matters either, but over all I am satisfied.

Patty - This has been a heated topic in this forum in recent years, but, to answer your question: Leafminers won't necessarily "hurt" or kill the tree. But, I'd like to know -- why would any container citrus hobbyist EVER want a tree with leafminer-infested/damaged leaves? They are quite unsightly and render the tree virtually useless as a specimen plant (unless your goal IS to display a mass of cosmetically damaged foliage). That said, there is no way to 'repair' damaged leaves, except by removing them. Keep an eye on new growth, since that's where leafminers get in and start doing damage. -- Thanks for your photo. I rest my case with the leafminer issue.

I think leafminers are only a problem in warmer climates.

One of the reasons citrus grown in cold climates often have such pretty green leaves is the lack of leafminers. I am so used to seeing the damage, that normal leaves look "different" to me.

I have tried for years to eliminate them. It is not possible in Florida. I use the FeriLome spray and hand pick them.

If you get a tree with miner-damaged leaves shipped from a warm state, to a colder one, it is not a big deal. Just remove them. If the tree is no longer in an area that has miners, the new leaves will be uninfested.

AAE, no, my goal is not to display damaged foliage, but I have no choice. If you actually know of a way to get rid of miners, please share it.

Lisa

Here is a link that might be useful: Leaf miners

AAE, I can move a collection of African Violet's which sit on a small shelf..There would be enough room and the tree would get south and west exposures, and some artificial light..I want this tree so bad I can taste it..

Patty, BUT after reading your post, I'm reconsidering..LOL..I've several trees from Harris and no bugs. Is this a fluke?

Lisa, that was my next question..are there an (organic) insecticides that kills LM's? Even though they're alleged harmless, I don't want trees with bugs, and I don't think ANY nursery should ship plants that are infested..harmless or not.

I'm going to check websites that talk about this insect. Someone must know some way to rid them, other than unroling each leaf and removing; it's gross anyway..I fear bugs. How big are LM's? THink I'll also check plant books and see if they have anything to offer. Toni

Lisa - In your case, the only way is through prevention, by keeping the tree 'toxic' with pesticide during growth flushes. This is when leafminers go to work on the tree, and cannot 'mine' their way into a leaf once it is more than a few weeks old. I have used Merit 75 WP (imidicloprid), Conserve SC (spinosad -- a commercial version of your Fertilome spray), and Talstar GH (bifenthrin) with no success.

In the past, it has been argued here that leafminers should essentially be ignored, and that they are harmless. I've always disagreed with this stance for various reasons, ranging from the diminished aesthetic value of the dooryard tree, to the higher potential for plant disease. By the way, according to Florida IFAS, the citrus leafminer can be counted on to spread canker. It also states that citrus leafminers have been reported to mine the rind of fruit, and is a "potentially serious threat to Florida citrus." I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I am concerned about the potential spread of CTV through leafminers. Of course, the main vector of this virus is the brown citrus aphid. But, keep in mind that 20 years ago, there were only two ways for humans to contract the AIDS virus. Get my point?

I would add that, if your conditions are adequate for citrus, they are also adequate for citrus leafminers. So, if you end up with pupating leafminers in Wisconsin, for example, get rid of them and keep an eye out for future generations.

I wish you luck, Lisa. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for some miracle leafminer cure (spinosad was supposedly the "miracle" cure a few years ago). If I find it, you'll be the first person to know.

Citrus Leafminer larvae also drop from the leaves & can be in the soil as well. To be sure they will not be a problem if the plants are going into a warm greenhouse or inside a warm house you can remove the plant from the pot spray the soil off the roots, repot in new soil & discard the original soil sealed in a plastic bag.

How long does it take for leaves to curl when a citrus in infested w/LM's? Though I haven't any curled leaves, tomorrow I'm going in the gh and checking for these bugs..You ppl are making me paranoid now..I'll check all the trees bought at Harris, and those from Briteleaf and Acorn Springs..Since nobody's mentioned anything regarding problems w/Acorn or Briteleaf I'll assume they're safe. Toni

Leafminers are found everywhere citrus is grown in the ground.

Laaz, if you're talking to me, the only citrus I've got growing in the ground is the Poncirus. And that's bug free. It's those in containers I'm worried about..they look fine, but like I said, I'm getting paranoid listening to all this talk about LM's..Toni

Lisa, thanks for that link. What I found inside that leaf was that yellow-greenish larvae!!!!
Toni, click on Lisa's link if you want to know more about leafminers. And, NO this was not a "fluke"..does that mean you don't believe me? I did post a pic (not a very good one I'm afraid).
AAE, "-- why would any container citrus hobbyist EVER want a tree with leafminer-infested/damaged leaves?"
I didn't ASK for nor WANT a leafminer infested tree...HELLOOOOO!!!
Ruth from Harris told me her father picked the trees to ship & they no longer have leafminer (so they thought), just some damage to leaves from them. She also said there is no serious problem to the tree.
I sprayed all the leaves w/ fish emulsion that they gave me (free). "...fish emulsion to be sprayed on leaves, the oil from this will not allow eggs from the (any) insects to attach to the leaf". And, OF COURSE I'll pick off all the bad leaves. Next step may be to repot as Laaz suggested.
(Am waiting for my new 'tree'pots)
Mage, I only had one tree (meiwa) with fruits --lost 2 of 8. Is your 5 gal really that big...5'x4'?
Patty

Pattty, at the beginning of this thread I wrote: ...."On a 1 - 10 rating where ten is the best tree possible, I would give Anna's trees (Briteleaf Nursery) an 8. I would give Harris's trees a 4." The trees I received from Harris also arrived with leaf miners, leaves with necrotic spots and necrotic margins, the general shape of some branches (encluding a main lead branch) were growing bent from being grown in too close contact with other nursery trees, and.....and.... Really Patty, I don't think leafminers is all that serious to worry about. Mainly the damage is aestheic. However, I know you do not want to purchase a tree with leafminers and damaged leaves, no one does. AAE I seriously doubt the CTV/leafminer connection, and AIDS is a little far out??? All in all I am not satisfied with Harris's product. Ruth is a VERY sweet person indeed, but I'm not buying sweetness. - Millet

Patty, thanks for the tip about Lisa's site.
Speaking of paranoid!!! LOL...Patty why would you think I don't believe you? On the contrary; this is what is making me upset..Please don't think I think you're lying..Is that how you interpreted my question?
What I mean by, Is it a fluke? What I meant was do all Harris' trees have LM or some? I'm not asking you, but speaking/writing aloud. Okay?
It was nice of Ruth to send you a bottle of FE. Maybe you didn't read my posts in the past, but Ruth is the person who told me about using FE as a foliar spray..they use this instead of other insecticidal oils..So, when I set my citrus in the gh and my home last month, I gave them a good spray of FE, and am crossing my fingers.
She told me it also prevents scale, mealy and mites, and since they've been in business over 40 yrs, I take her word.
I still want a 5 gallon Ponderosa..really really bad..LOL..I wrote Ruth last night and she responded she'd take a look..I also wrote to Anna from Briteleaf but as far as I know they only sell trees in 1 gallon pots..but you never know unless you ask..right? Anyway, please don't think I was calling you a liar,,..hugs, Toni

Millet, mind if I ask how long it's been since you ordered the citrus from Harris? Was it recent?

Toni - I think Patty was referring to me. And I've really never had to worry about leafminers on trifoliate rootstock. Although, mealybugs seem to love it.
Patty - My question about "Why would . ." was rhetorical. I wasn't referring to you, or anyone else, as a liar. I know you don't want a leafminer-infested tree. No one does. This is my point, exactly. Your photo is fine, by the way. So, ease up on the throttle. LOL. Also, Laaz brings up a good point about leafminers in the soil. As part of my IPM program, I have used landscape fabric over the soil in an effort to break the lifecycle of some pupating leafminers that end up there. I think it has helped, if only slightly.
Millet - You are probably right about a CTV-leafminer connection. However, you don't really have anything to base your opinion on, other than blind faith. And, yes... I debated using the AIDS analogy, but ultimately thought it was an appropriate way to show that pathology (be it for flora or fauna) is "practiced" and far from perfect.

AAE, possibly nothing has been researched in greater detail in citrus than CTV, and no connection between CTV and leafminer has ever been shown. Judgements made based on current research data is certainly more than just "blind faith." Leafminer assumptions is basically a 'what if' synerio. What if's can go on forever. Take care - Millet

Yes, my tree from them filled the whole length of the box they sent, so it is at least 5 ft, but about 41 inches wide. If I was Harris, I would remove all the damaged leaves before shipment, since this reflects on them. I removed at least 30 damaged leaves, and I'll bring out the FE when I get home.

Millet - You win the "Cliche` of the Day" award, my friend. Congratulations. LOL. That's quite the bold (if not broad) statement: what ifs can go on forever -- and is hardly applicable. Indeed CTV has been much researched. And, true, there is no documented relationship betweem CTV and leafminers. If you are willing to trust that all research, to this point, provides the definitive answers about the transmission of CTV, so be it. But you are in Colorado, where CTV is not an issue. So it is geographically convenient for you to exercise blind faith. Good luck to you.

What is CTV? Toni

Toni - CTV: Citrus Tristeza Virus. And, as I have pointed out, we don't know nearly as much about CTV as some of us would like to think. Of course, there has been much research done and more is going on right now (see link). But, Florida continues to lose trees to CTV even to this day (see: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9674663/). It's a serious threat, which shouldn't be taken lightly or through assumptions that, just because no has come out and said "leafminers may be able to transmit CTV," that it isn't possible. They probably said the same thing about leafminers and canker a few years ago (but lately, leafminers are getting a lot of blame for the canker problems in Florida). Just use common sense. Anything that bores its way into the leaf tissues is certainly capable of transmitting a virus.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARS Tristeza Study

AAE, thanks..I'll read both sites later..got some things to do around here, so I'm on and off the puter.
Is this CTV a problem only in Fl or other states, too? Let's say I ordered a citrus from another state..is there a chance a citrus will have this CTV?
CTV sounds like a cable channel..LOL.

I understand what you mean about CTV in comparison to AIDS. I worry about mosquitoes. They fly around biting ppl..if someone is infected with this dreadful disease, and a mosquito bites this person, then bites another person, is the second person in danger? This concerns me.

I guess when plants live in warm climates, there are more problems..Think of all the bacteria growing in these climates and no cold to kill them off.
I'd bet the Amazon is packed w/germs. Some scientists never heard of. Toni

Toni - CTV is mainly a problem in Florida, although it was rampant in California at one time and ultimately became the catalyst for the UC Meyer Lemon Improvement Program. Actually, there were two catalyst viruses: seedling-yellows tristeza -and- tatterleaf. CTV has been an issue of concern in Texas, but has not caused any major catastrophes to the relatively small industry here.

The answer to your question is: Yes, there is a chance that your tree will have CTV. Most nurseries do not obtain phytosanitary certificates every time they ship a tree. Instead, they consider themselves 'safe' because of their USDA Quarantined Articles stamp, which is renewed annually. DON'T PANIC that your trees may have CTV. There are specific symptoms. But, if you feel one of your plants may be infected, email me. There are CTV screening services through private companies out there, who guarantee to keep the results confidential.

AAE, I'll have to read the article..No, I don't think my citrus have LM's or CTV..I hope not anyway, but thanks for the help.
After I read the article, check my plants, only then if I suspect something I'll email you via GW...thanks for the help.
Geesh, all this talk of LM's and now this scares me though, but I'm not yet, panicking..LOL..
I still want a 5 gallon Ponderosa..LOL..but one w/o all these problems...Toni

Toni, yes I did interpret "is this a fluke" as you not believing me.
Some words have diff. meaning in other states, but around here a 'fluke' is something made up or, not true. In the dictionary it is a fish, worm, blades on an anchor,whale tail, &'stroke of good luck' LOL. Don't worry about it-- no hard feelings.
AAE, you didn't read that post--I WASN"T referring to you.
Mage, I measured my tree from floor up & it is 42 inches high ...and less that 2 ft at widest part. You said you removed about 30 damaged leaves...was it from LM? Were they curled & brown? Between the leaves that fell off & the bad ones I pulled off, I have several branches that have NO leaves! Millet rating Harris a 4 to Briteleaf's 8 seemed to piss ppl off before & is now making sense to me (although I never ordered from B.leaf) Guess I just haven't been very lucky w/ tree orders this year (except for the guavas). I have enough so I won't be ordering anything for a long time
Patty

Patty, I meant fluke as something that doesn't happen often, or by accident..
AAE, I thought she was talking to me..LOL..
Patty, believe me, I wasn't calling you a liar..Toni

Patty - Thanks for setting the record straight. For once, I don't get the blame around here. LOL. You made my day.

Yes, I remove all LM leaves. The actual leaf loss was 52, but there are still at least 150+ left. I have no bare branches. They will be under MH HID in a humid basement corner next week, so a full pest purge is required.

Check the Briteleaf trees. I just ordered 4 trees and two of them show tunneling consistent with CLM. I have thoroughly inspected the trees and I can find no larvae or pupae. I wondered if the trees were sprayed or treated recently and I have emailed Briteleaf to find out.

Please confirm that the larvae are visible to the naked eye...if I want to treat or prevent CLM, do I really need to remove leaves with no larvae or pupae present?

Robert

Robert - You can see the larvae, as it tunnels into the leaf surface. The eggs are a different story. Many times, you will see damaged leaves from which the leafminers are long gone. Aside from being unattractive, these leaves are not an indication of a current problem.

Patty, are you still having problems w/your 5 gallon blood orange?
I spoke to Ruth today..she explained they do not plant trees in 3gallon pots..
I think you are confused w/the container number they use, not the size..She said, they only grow trees in #3 and #5 pots..this isn't the size of pot..
If you write her she'll explain..
She also mentioned the boxes they use are 52" tall, so a 5' tree would never fit.
Mage, you need to re-measure the size of your tree again..LOL.

Because of the huricanes, they had a lot of trouble spraying this yr. When they did something always interfered..The last time, it rained, washing off the spray.
She also said, before shipping, they inspect trees..they do not send plants with bugs, but sometimes, because of pests, some leaves may be damaged.

She is holding a 5gallon Ponderosa tree for me which will be delivered next spring. It's not available now.
Patty, Ruth knows how many plants I have, and also understands how much I care for each and every one..She'd never, ever send an infested citrus. To do so, would only harm her business..she is aware I talk on a citrus forum and leave feedback on GWD. Toni

I am happy to report that repeated inspection of the trees from Briteleaf reveal to larvae or pupae.

I emailed Anna and she promptly replied that the trees were treated before being sent out.

So far so good, I'll just keep an eye on things. Thanks everyone.

Robert

Ack, I meant to type NO larvae or pupae. Sorry.

Robert, I trust Briteleaf (Anna) with my life. She wouldn't send out infested trees either. I've known her 3 yrs now, been ordering since, and never once had any problems with citrus. What type of trees did you get? She's holding 5 or 6, (can't remember) for me that will be ready next spring. Her site mentions 'surprises' that will be available..whoee!! LOL..Toni

For those that use Fish Emulsion (FE), do you make your own or buy it? If bought, what brands do u recommend? If homemade can u post a recipe? I would like to have this treatment in my back pocket in case of need.

This is used as a foilar spray, correct? Are there other uses for it as well?

Thanks

I only seen one brand here: Alaska Fish Emulsion, which is allegedly deodorized. If it is, I can only imagine what a full stench is like. It can be used foliar or as a water based fertilizer. I think it is 5-1-1.

I also re-measured Patty, and it is 58 inches.

Sometimes HD carries fish Emulsion.
I've two types..the Alaskian 5-1-1 and another which I can't find right now..LOl. It's not from Alaska, and the numbers differ. I'll have to look for it. The 5-1-1 works fine..I'm going to apply once every other month until Jan/Feb..then when I see new growth I'll proceed w/regular citrus food.
BTW, I'm only using the FE as an insect preventative during winter months, even though it'll work as a fertilzier, too. Toni

No one really wants thrips or any pest
To come into there garden
When I pick out a plant I do way the benifit vs the harm of taking on in that should really be isolated I suppose all plants should be spyayed and inspected befroe introduced
and quarantine is not a bad thing

Cause virus and canker are not something you want
Some virus just look ugly and really won't hurt the plant as thrips
but sometimes after all is sprayed and done
a bargain is not a bargain

So you got to be careful.

I'm starting all over
Lost all of mine a few years ago
think it was root rot due to overpotting
Never watered even in the summer
mix just would niot dry out

Well I got a little dwarf Cara
and been picking her apart
but I see a 5gal for $20 is not bad
and she looks healthy which is a plus

The others I saw had ants crawling over them
I hate taking a plant home filled with ants

I got Cara in traction and shes straightening out
LOL

No fruit no flowers and shes in a sandy heavy mix
I may get rid of that
its been wet since I bought it home 5 days ago
Oooh I checked the roots and they are sort of beigy color

No trips and clean of scale and webbings
That other nursery that had the big one had ants and webbings and some sort of white meally bug encrusted patches under the leaves so they are not being taken care of

I think after all is said and done I'll keep my dwarf cara
She'll grow

Smiles

{{gwi:635989}}

This is Cara Dwarf from La Verne CA in a 5 gal and she was $20. I just measured her and shes about 2 ft bt 2ft

Ohhh would love a blood orange though
Thinking maybe the Tarracco
had Moro, Sang, Cara and the variegated eureka lemon
but one by one they all turned brown stemed and leaves dropped. Sort of a die back fungus
I saw it one one in a nursery
A huge tree in a 5 gal
hard for me to believe that was overwatered
had to be so rootbound and all the leaves were yellow.
But it was huge and had fruit and was only $30 for a 5' with fruit...but you know you bring something home thats not doing well have to kill the ants and nurse it and hope it doesn't have anything contagious

Thanks...I'll start small
I go over board too
I just love to have one of each
but i don';t have the room

Good luck everyone and sorry to all those not in citrus growing states cause they are cheaper and we can get them from local nurserys in our Home Depots

PS thats why there is a high restriction on importing citrus into a citrus growing state such as CA and FL
cause disease can take a big bite out the economy
but it hurts us just as bad when we lose a tree.

Camel, what a cute tree..It looks nice and healthy..so green..
Good thing you passed up the other bug-filled trees..That other nursery best take care of their citrus..
The white patches were probably mealybug..I don't care if the tree was 2.00, I wouldn't buy a tree w/mealy despite it's type or cost..
And if the plant had ants, it probably also had scale/aphids..
You don't need to bring a severely bug infested plant in your home..
I'd have talked to the manager and pointed out the bugs. But that's how I am..I've done this before when Frank's Nursery was open, and they were selling mite infested plants..(sale plants)
Your tree is really nice..hope all goes well and don't overpot..Toni