northernmn,
it is more about zone rating on your grapes
if you are not pushing zones or borderline or concerned, then they are fine left on the trellis over winter
might not be a great idea to have the canes touching metal over winter
maybe a cordon system is what you are thinking of, single stem for a smaller trellis and multi-stem for a larger trellis

i have a rudimentary page on grape pruning/training,
but it might help you (link below)

Here is a link that might be useful: Grape training/pruning

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, since I just use the "sprawl" method on my 3 Valiant vines (one of which is shaded heavily by an apple tree and rarely produces anything, so really 2 Valiants). In the spring, I just cut off any wood that died over the winter, then I tidy the vines up a bit, thinning things where they seem too crowded. After that, I let them do their own thing, pruning them back a couple times each summer with hedge trimmers when they get too wild. Certainly not any sort of recommended method, but I get about 20 lbs of grapes each year, and I don't really want any more than that.

In a perfect world, knowing that grapes fruit on one year-old wood, you could plan your prunings to maximize the amount of year-old wood, then prune much of it out after fruiting. But zone 3 or 4 is not a perfect world for grape growing, so my feeling is that random winterkill is going to disrupt the best laid plans on pruning canes. Which brings me back to the random sprawl method and just going with whatever survived the winter....

Intotheark... Thanks for posting that web site. Lots of good info there.

Don... Is your "sprawl method" just one low wire?

I'm going to have to pick a spot to give grapes a try. It looks like Valiant will probably be my best bet.

Northernmn, no, it's 3 wires (clothesline wire, run between metal t-bars). It's dark out now, but from recollection the wires are run at about 1.5 feet, around 3 feet, and the highest at maybe 4 or 4.5 feet. Grape vines are attached to all levels, both with clips or velcro-like tape, and also by their own tendrils. Grapes grow like crazy and run up over the trellis, up onto the fence, and up nearby trees. Needs to be sheared a couple of times each summer, then clipped back in the spring when I see what lived and what didn't. I don't have a great pic, but maybe this will illustrate... valiant start on the middle-left of the pic and extend to the right through the middle of the pic, up and over the fence and an apple tree on the right side of the pic.
{{gwi:100357}}

Or maybe this is a better photo, from about a month ago? Problem is, in 2009 I planted a blackberry and the only place I really had for it then was in front of the grape trellis. So the green canes in this pic are the blackberry as I unearthed it from its winter cover of leaves on April 19. The brown rambling twigs behind the blackberry are part of the Valiant grapes.

This is after I had pruned them this spring. I wouldn't normally prune the Valiants until it became clear what survived and what didn't, but this spring I went on a huge pruning blitz of all my trees, and the grapes got included when I ran out of trees to prune :) I may have to remove some of the remaining wood when I see whether all of this survived or not. During summer I now prune the grapes so the blackberry doesn't get swallowed. (I have another blackberry now, planted on its own trellis in 2010, so much easier to maintain than this grape-blackberry combo).

Oh, and I see that I actually use a 4-wire system, not the 3 I claimed above, oops. Fence is about 6 feet high. Trellis wires are kind of droopy now, as I haven't adjusted them since I set it up probably 10 or more years ago.

I wondering whether anyone has tried a variety I've been interested in from Cornhill nursery: Minnesota 78. Does it overwinter? Is the flavor good? I haven't planted any grapes yet, and I've never tried any of the hardy varieties, so I don't have anything to compare to.

Bluebell was the other one I was going to ask about, but intotheark it sounds like you had quite the frustrating experience with it/ground squirrel! Grr! Hopefully you can tell us about it this fall.

Thanks for the pictures Don. You have a lot of production packed into that 1st picture. I can see how thick and aggressive the grape is. I'm impressed with how well they do in our climates.

Well the grapes have come alive. The more shade Frontenac looks the healthier of the two. Both grapes are budding from the bottom up so I am not sure what will dead wood and what is still dormant. I guess a little patience is in order.

The Prairie Star is a little worse for wear. I have a feeling I'm going to have to prune this one. I have no experience with grapes. I'd like to train them to follow the trellis behind them. Any tips on pruning would be appreciated. Thanks Collin.

Generally try to keep or get the canes to pencil thickness (I have read this in many articles) and my own experience with Valiant also. I don't cover mine and most of the plants are exposed. The crowns are less than a foot off the ground so I could take them down. So to get pencil thickness only keep the most vigorous growth. I've also read and have seen that if the plant likes where it is you can't do anything wrong. That's not my plants. I have planted 2 Brianna this spring, I was looking for Prairie Star, they seem very similar.

This grape had been grown by an elderly Italian gentleman from west end Edmonton and the productive hardy vine even being featured on the news many years ago. Three years ago, I was kindly given a plant for trial and it has now exploded into growth and bears a nice crop. I have the plant growing sprawled on the ground and it gets covered with deep snows, though this winter I intend to leave a few vines sticking above the snow to fully test for hardiness. The fruit has better flavor and is less seedy than 'Valiant' and generally matures about the same time.

'Somerset Seedless' and 'Trollhaugen' are also really kicking into gear and vines becoming substantial, though I might get to test only a mere few berries, but hopefully next year they'll reward me. I'm now quite excited about grape growing and enjoy hearing of the varieties others are attempting.

Edmonton grape ...

The foliage was removed around these clusters to get the sunshine upon the fruit that is now beginning to ripen, this young vine carries a rather remarkable crop!

This is the vine as photographed in early June, so I was quite surprised it could already develop such a nice crop this year.

Thought I would post some if the grapes that I have. This one is Kandiyohi

This post was edited by kayakcraig on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 21:56

Another view

This one is a white called Brianna. Very sweet!

Last one is Swenson Red

I take them off the trellis in the fall and let whatever snow there is cover them.
Also have Louis Swenson, Prairie Star, valiant, 4 unnamed Swenson crosses, but my favorite is Brianna.

This post was edited by kayakcraig on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 22:01

Those grapes are amazing. I am inspired.

Terry,..did you get them to ripen?
My Valiant is NOT all blue...late spring and a early deep freeze got them to shut down!
Nice showing Kayak,..are these from this year?
How would you compare Kandiyohi to Valiant in vigor, flavor and seeds..since I'm interested in blue grapes.

kayakcraig ... yes, rather amazing results you're obtaining with your grapes! Many varieties can be grown on the prairies if one selects the most hardy and early ripening varieties and situates them in a toasty warm location and then laying them down to the ground for winter.

Konrad, I had considered that my vine might be a 'Valiant', though I could see and taste the difference when today I had compared the two side by side ... but, both could have used another two good weeks of ripening.

This post was edited by twrosz on Sun, Sep 14, 14 at 22:37

kayakcraig..I'm guessing your ripe grapes in zone 2 are from some other years, [if grown outside] nevertheless, inspiring.
This year, the warmer, zone 3 had a hard time getting them ripe, ..my Valiant could need another 10 day's out on the farm.

Hi Konrad. The grapes are from this year. We still haven't had a frost. Kandiyohi is a large purple grape. More fruity in flavour then valiant. Valiant still is the winner for tasting grapey and being hardy. Mine grows on a chain link fence, never gets taken down and crops every year. In terms of vigorous kandiyohi is very vigorous and several seeds but due to being 3 times bigger then valiant it has loads more flesh. I

My favorite for fresh eating is Somerset seedless. I just grow them on a chainlink fence here on the edge of zones 3 and 4.
Northwoodswis

kayakcraig, I can see it now...that nice overhead structure you have against the house will trap some heat,..and if your'e in town.

Which one's ripe first,..Valiant or Kandiyohi?

One more thing about grapes: In our climate they often don't get enough heat to ripen well.

Plant them on a south facing wall.

But a south facing wall has problems with buds dehydrating over the winter, and early bud break in spring.

There are a bunch of different pruning methods for grapes. If you want fruit, it's not a plant and forget. Youtube is your friend.

The grapes seem late this year, but maybe that's just my imagination? Anyway, Valiant (my only variety) are fully ripe now, and time to make some jelly. There might be more to process tomorrow, this was all I could deal with today.

A Valiant cluster:

A sink full of grapes ready to be de-stemmed:

The final jelly (from 17.5 cups of destemmed grapes, which yielded 7.5 cups of filtered grape juice, or a bit more than 10 cups of jelly once sugar was added, froth was skimmed, etc.):

This post was edited by don555 on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 2:44

You guys sure do make me want to plant grapes! I'm still trying to figure out a good place to plant them in our exposed farmyard. I think I'd have pretty much no choice but to take them off the trellis each fall and possibly cover them. The last couple years in our area I think would have had disappointing results because of late, cold springs, and early falls. Still...

Weeper, Valiant can take -40 degrees. At what used to be Sprout Farms Fruit Tree Nursery, in farmland about 30 minutes north of Edmonton, they had a huge Valiant vine that they just let sprawl up and over some unused or seldom used storage shed. I presume it was a south exposure, but I don't recall for sure. They never pruned it or took it down during winter, and it was horribly grown, but it did produce grapes.

Oh, and I ended up getting even more grapes today (21.5 cups after stems removed), not bad from 2 vines. These ones are becoming juice concentrate while I type...

My Valiant grapes died right back to the crowns, while I was waiting for buds on the canes to grow I kept breaking off new growth on the crowns because I thought that they were not needed. Once I figured out that most of it was dead I left some to grow and did they ever grow. Most are well over 1/2" in diameter at the crown and 7 plus feet long. They have never grown that much before, hopefully there will be a good amount of fruit next year.

That's a nice amount of grapes you've gotten there Don.

I've kept the 'Edmonton' grape covered of recent and it's now finally ripening up. I'd have to consider this one as being a good deal superior to 'Concord' and 'Valiant' when it comes to fresh eating.

I'm so glad my thread grew to have a life of its own. Kayakcraig those are some impressive specimens. My grapes grew this year and the Prairie Star even tried to put on a cane of grapes but they were really small and stunted.

I snapped a photo from late August.

I'm debating if I should pull the vines off the arbour and lay them on the ground for the winter. This is a high snow accumulation area so they will have a lot of protection. I just hope they survive so I can have some grape photos of my own.

Great looking Terry,...looks like they could use another 10 days or so.

Collin, if it was me, lay them down the first winter because of the tender thin shoots, less freeze back. I prune mine to one or two leaders only.

Don, great harvest!!

Germanica picked today,...I think similar to Valiant, a little better, also large seeds but can have larger clusters and larger berries.
Brix/sugar level was at 15, Valiant 13.4

Your plants always inspire Konrad. My two are budding out. Not much in the way of winter kill. I am worried as we are still forecast for night frosts this weekend. These aren't fruit buds just leaf buds so I think I'll be okay.

'Somerset Seedless' wintered surprisingly well, plant is still on the smallish side, though hit its stride last summer and hadn't suffered extreme dieback during that nasty arctic blast in early September that plummeted overnight temps to -5c. Whereas, 'Trollhaugen' was killed right down to the ground, as it had still been in lush active growth ... so, am kicking myself that I hadn't thrown a few blankets over it for just that one night, it otherwise had came through three winters in fine shape.

I was wondering what opinions there are between Minnesota 78 and Bluebell. I have room for 1 more grape(I planted Beta and Valiant this spring) and I need to choose between these two. I'm mainly interested in fresh eating. It sounds like Bluebell isn't as hardy? Anyone have experience with these? I see that our local greenhouse had a few Bluebell's, so I was wondering if I should pick one up, or order a Minnesota 78 bareroot from Cornhill. Usually the greenhouse carries Minnesota 78 as well, but this year for some reason they don't have it.

Grape update. There was freeze back on the Frontenac but almost none on the Prairie Star. Both are coming back.

I think this fall I will lay the Frontenac down if I can. It at least has more cover.

Frontenac needs to be covered .i doubt it will survive zone 2. It's rated zone 4 but that's because they grow it in a warm zone 4 in minnisota. I tried 3 of them last year here and it's pretty much zone 4 ,I layerd lots of stuff on top of them on the ground and one has came back. And it died right to the stump. I did do Iona they did not die back very much .also 2 beta and 2 valiant in the same row with same protection they died .

Marquette is another variety they are ranting about I did put one in so far but am sceptical as its part of the Frontenac series from u of min .

Does anyone know where I can get a Morden 9703 grape vine?

Morden Nurseries and Garden Centre in Manitoba lists a Morden Green Grape. Could be the same grape that they have now renamed. I don't think they do mail order but you could ask.

a picture of Valiant this fall. It is loaded.

Jim Kohut describes Morden 9703 (S16) - A recently introduced (and as of yet
unnamed) hybrid from Eastern Europe, this is undoubtedly the hardiest
green table grape you'll find. Produces absolutely enormous clusters of
large green grapes that are incredible for fresh eating, especially if
left to ripen on the vine into fall - these will rival any table grapes
you'll find in the store! Hard to find in the trade. Marginally hardy in
zone 3 - may need some winter protection." Make it Green garden center lists it, whether it is what they say it is is another matter.

The front here would be Prairie Star but I was busy and the vines co mingled together...I did trim a few times but the wet summer created a lot of vigor.

There was no die back anywhere but this was an unusually mild winter. Probably could be described as a zone 4 rating. Frontenac on the left.

Morden 9703 looks like a nice grape. It looks like Make it Green garden centre has it listed as a special order plant. I wonder if that is because it is from Eastern Europe?

Some of this years' grapes. Green is Prairie Star, purple is Kandiyohi, next pic is of the largest Kandiyohi bunch this year and the last is Swenson Red

Those are amazing!!! They look huge, what a great looking crop, especially for zone 2!

Do you lay the vines down and mulch during the winter?

The Swensen Red and Kandiyohi I, lay done and then just snow cover. The Brianna and Prairie Star I have been leaving up.

Those of you in the Edmonton area: Would you bring scion wood (cuttings) to the April Devonian Garden Fruit Growers Group?

My understanding for grapes is that you want an 18" chunk with at least 3, 4 better. nodes on it. Leave an inch below the bottom node. To root, recut closer to the bottom node, possibly scar the bark near the lower node, dip in rooting compound and plant. Keep in shade until leaves start to open.

Works better if you take the trouble to callus the roots. To do this you need to keep the bottom end warm, and the top end cool.

More info here: http://www.bunchgrapes.com/cuttings.html