weed,

I don't think there's any one answer to your question b/c it depends on which veggies or flowers one has decided t o save seeds from and then determining how many plants to grow of same.

If you're saving seeds from cukes, melons or squash, which are vining plants and the female blossoms have to be hand pollinated, it takes LOTS of room.

But if you're saving radish or lettuce or bean seed, for example, it takes far less room.

So as I said, no one answer b/c it depends on the specific veggie(s) involved. And it also depends on how much seed you feel you need to or want to save.

Carolyn

Another aspects is the reason you are saving seed. If you're just growing for yourself, that's one thing. If you're growing to trade or sell, or to build stocks for a seed-saving organization, that's something else again.

You also have to consider how important genetic vigor is to you. Again, if you're only saving seed for your own use, that might not be a high-priority issue. But if you're growing for others, or to assure continuation of the variety, than you must save seed from enough plants to do that.

So, as Carolyn implies, the definitive answer to your questions is: it depends.

Maybe you could specify just which veggies you'd like to save seed from. That way, the knowledgeable folks here would be able to give more specific deatils. If it hasn't already been suggested, try to get hold of a copy of Suzanne Ashworth's Seed to Seed, maybe from your library. It tells you just about all you'd ever want to know about saving seed for loads of different veggies.

I see what you mean, I just went back to the Seed to Seed book, and it recomends up to 20 plants for saving squash family seeds.
I wonder If i could do that in increments of 10 plants per year. I would use my original pk for the first 20 plants. and then start mixing in proven seeds from saved seeds.

I was thinking I could get some good seed By:
year 1: 4 tomato plants from store bought pk
year 2: 2 plants from store bought pk and 2 from my saved seeds
year 3: 2 plants from store bought pk and 2 from my saved seeds
Seed would be saved from all plants that met type and production requirements.
This would meet the Seed saving faQ that everyone is working on of 6 plants grown. and meet the needs of my small garden.

An alternative, Weedpuller, that eliminates the need to buy commercial seeds in the future, is to form a grower's network among friends and family.

Let's say you get five others involved. And you're growing an outbreeding veggie that requires, say, 30 plants to assure vigor. Each of you grows 5 plants, and saves seed from them. You then mix all the seed together, and redistribute among the group.

This assures that the complete genetic make-up of the population is maintained---which, in a nutshell, is what genetic vigor is all about.

Tomatoes are a bit different, because they are inbred and self pollinating. This means that in theory you could save seed from just one fruit and not have any problems. But, as somebody once said, in theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.

The problem comes from mutations and the rare cross. So, to assure you are growing true-to-type tomatoes, you save seed from several plants. How many is an open question. I like five, to be safe. Others think three or four is sufficient.

Beans are another one of those theory/practice thing. Beans are self-pollinators, and do so even before the flowers open. So, in theory, one plant would be sufficient. However, the genetic mix of the population is very extensive (that's why you can have so many variations within a populations). So you want to save seed from at least 20 plants, and 30 is even better. But unlike, say, squash or melons, you don't need all that much room to grow 30 bean plants.

Don't know anyone that I could trust to bag or hand polinate plants. But at this point I am just trying to stretch the seeds I use the most.
Hopefully this would allow me to try different Items every year.

GardenLad's idea is a good one, but if you can't do that then your idea of growing out smaller numbers over a number of years amounts to the same thing, as long as you mix the seeds. This is how I would get around needing 100 (or whatever it is) corn plants. The only thing to be aware of here is the lifetime of the seed in question. Tomato seeds, if properly cleaned (fermented for example) will last quite a number of years and so would not present a problem.

I don't think my garden is large enough to save seed from corn. I think after I have grown the seeds the first time and they look like they are pure I would mix them, but not before. that would make extra pks of seed to keep track of but I would hate tomix them before I was sure.

I'm wondering, too, if you aren't making too big a deal out of this.

If you save seed just once, you can rotate on, say, a five year basis without worrying about it. That is, save enough seed from this year's grow-out to fill your needs for the next four years.

Sounds, initially, like a lot of seed saving. But think about what you actually plant, and it's really not all that much. Even five years worth of bean seed doesn't take up that much room.

Best way of keeping seed pure is to only grow one variety at a time of those species that will readily cross. For most garden plants, this would primarily mean peppers and the cucurbits.

Peppers can be grown for seed in simple cages that will prevent cross pollination, btw, if you must grow more than one variety at a time.

Squashes come in 6 species, four of which are commonly grown in North America. So you could, by choosing your species, grow 4 different squashes at the same time, with little fear of crossing. This presumes that your neighbors across the way aren't also growing squash.

Same thing applies to cucumbers and melons. If there isn't another of them being grown nearby, then there's nothing for them to cross with.

In practical terms, common beans will not cross. So you can grow as many of them as you like, with minimal spacing between varieties. Limas will cross with each other, but not with anything else. So, too, will runners. So just grow one of them at a time to maintain purity.

I'm wondering, too, if you aren't making too big a deal out of this

I agree.

Lets just look at tomatoes where the fruits of most varieties can have upwards of 50-200 seeds each, but with a huge range, the paste types having less seeds.

Once you' ve saved seed from several fruits from each of several plants of a single variety you've got more seen than you know what to do with if you're using it just for home growing, as you've indicated.

And I'll extend that concept to many other veggies as well.

It's all well and good to want to save seed but sometimes for many veggie varieties it's easier to just buy the seed, especially for those veggies that have seeds that don't last very long, as in 1-2 years.

If a variety is rare and obtaining more might be a pr oblem, then I think that's reason enough to want to save seed for home use, or otherwise.

Carolyn

I know what you mean, and i did not want to be so complicated, but wanted to learn what part of the seed saving process was nessasary and what i could get away with, With out causing a loss of prodution in my garden. Because as you say it would be easier to buy seeds. I after all I only use 70 tomato seeds, 600 bean seeds and 180 mixed squash a year.
As far as the neighbors go they are growng pumpkin, buttercup and zukes, So your right I have to watch that.
I could just grow the Long Island cheese pumpkin this year, and pass on the butternut. I was not planning on saving seed from the butternut as it is really easy to get. the others in that family -c moschata- I could live with out for one year. The c.pepo is the big problem way too many in that family.
i however am not sure but i think most of the people on the exchanges are probably not trying to stop any cross polination or doing anything about diversity. Otherwise I would just trade with them. I have a problem with the grocery store produce saved seed that Is being passed around. I think you really have to know which ones you can get away with. Unfornuattely most of them don't.
thank for all your help. I think I have a plan that will work for me.

i however am not sure but i think most of the people on the exchanges are probably not trying to stop any cross polination or doing anything about diversity. Otherwise I would just trade with them. I have a problem with the grocery store produce saved seed that Is being passed around. I think you really have to know which ones you can get away with. Unfornuattely most of them don't

Weed,

Now here I agree with you.

In that you've seen me post several times about my concern for traded seed re pu rity.

And tra ding/growing seeds from store bought squash is another big no no since you have no idea, nor does the Produce Manager at the larger stores, how many squash of other species were grown in the area at the same time.

I do hope you've looked at the Sandhill Preservation catalog or website for seed since Glenn is the Curator for Cucurbits for SSE and does a wonderful job at hand pollinating, and his prices are quite low as well.

Carolyn

I traded for some Lakota Squash this year, spent the time to grow it, and it was no doubt cross bred. I can not see the advantage to the cause of saving Heirlooms by the trading by unexperienced persons. So i won't participate.
But anyway I am looking over Baker Creek, SSE and Sandhill Preservation for my next order of seeds. I ordered from Mountain Valley seeds this year. This Year was my bulk order year. Next year I order what I call the fancy stuff. (heirlooms and OP).