Only if it stays protected enough during the winter to keep the buds from dying. Since they bloom on old wood, if winter is killing the buds you will not get summer blooms no matter where you put it.....yg

Wow! what kind of winters do you get down there?? I have my oakleaf planted in a forested setting amongst douglas firs, and we went to -10c last winter and I didn`t even lose hardly any leaves.. Maybe look for a spot where there is very little wind..

Where Pam lives in zone 6 is on the low end of the Oakleaf hardiness range whereas zone 8 is ideal. There is a big difference between the two....yg

No way zone 6 is the low end of oakleaf hardiness!!! IMO, it is a true zone 6! It is pretty in the fall in zone 6! In warmer zones, they'll never see it as pretty as here growing where I live during fall season! Sorry, but that's modesty aside speaking! It is a lot tougher than any toughest macrophylla I know. My oakleaf is planted in the unprotected site among my different types of hydrangeas and yet I don't lose any teeny single stem of it. Because of that, it is almost 5 feet now in height in a span of 3 years (only 2 feet 3 years ago), with full of flowers budding all around the shrub. I have another oakleaf ('Alice') too that I just planted last year that has flower budding this year. I bought and planted it without flowers last year. Very hardy! No diedback at all. We had -10*F this winter too. If it is just -10*F, that is not a problem for oakleaf. Cold hardiness for oakleaf is usually stated at -20*F to -30*F.

Pam, that is very surprising. Warm sunshine location might help it during cold wintery days. And Sonny's guess might be right, is it in windy location? Houses around your property, fences, near the foundation, trees especially evergreen ones, are good wind stoppers.

My oakleaf is planted in a *MORE unprotected site *THAN among my different types of hydrangeas and yet I don't lose any teeny single stem of it.

Pam,

All pettiness aside, Oakleaf hydrangeas are native to the southeast. They are the state flower of Alabama and while they are more winter hardy than macrophyllas, the nurseries I looked up online list the hardiness at either 5 - 9 or 6 - 9. That is neither here nor there. The fact is that your oakleafs are dying back every winter, not every spring nor every fall, so it doesn't take a detective to figure out that the cold is the problem. Every yard has microclimates, areas that are more or less suseptible to the elements, and it doesn't matter if it grows in someone else's yard if it's dead in yours. You can winter protect it in any number of ways including moving it to the more protected location that you mentioned. Perhaps that will be a better/warmer microclimate. If that does not work, then move on to more drastic protection methods like covering in the winter. I'd hate to see you lose it, Oakleaf is one of my favs. Good luck...yg

the fall color is stunning on oakleaf hydrangeas in the southeast and lasts many weeks in our climate. all modesty aside, the red is so intense that i have used them for christmas decorations. :-)

Are there visiting deers in your property? A deer in just one visit could eat the whole shrub.

Lerissa - where do you live where it went to -10° F? It hasn't been below 0° F in the city since 1994 and the all-time record low for the city since the 1870s is -11° F, which happened in the 1930s IIRC. About the lowest it got here in the city this winter were some single digit days, the lowest of which was ~4° F or -15° C.

Jenny, I live in Southeast Philadelphia. The wind chill factor, included in it most probably. I remember I saw it in the news one night this February or March I think and was worried about my hydrangeas. I am not a meteorologist so I might be wrong and can't access any data to verify but that is what I remember from a weather news one wintery day when I was watching one of those local night-time news program. Note, that -10*F temperature was not during the daytime but during the night when the sun is not shining.

Lerissa,

If you are in SE Phily, then you are not a true zone 6 but really zone 7 which is why you generally have better performance than others in zone 6.....yg

No, I am in zone 6, at least that's what I see in the USDA zoning map as far as I am concerned and that's what my zip code (if I input it here) tells me so. I am actually losing a lot of old woods from macrophyllas this time ever since I've moved in with my husband's. I used to live in a smaller property near Center City with a smaller garden bed. In my old residence, it was also zone 6 but it was microclimatic location where my small hydrangea bed was, that it was behaving as if those macs were in 7. No any dieback up to the tips of the plants. About two houses across, there was one year, I saw my neighbor's mature macrophylla died back to the ground whereas all mine were perefectly fine. Actually, being there in Center City may be a disadvantage sometimes. Every winter there, strong wind tunnels through the streets because of too many high rise buildings, but small streets. Were I am now, the wind is dispersed and I have a bigger garden this time but I do miss my microclimatic small garden bed in my old house. That house was sold in one day it was in the market :). And I regret not digging my hydrangeas with me, the buyers wanted them stay there :(

Lerissa - YG is correct, The city is split in half with the southern half as Zone 7a as of the USDA 1990 map. There have been no below 0° F here in the city in over a decade. The wind chills have certainly been close to that range but wind chill is a people thing, not a plant thing. :-p This doesn't mean that frost pockets don't exist (my sister lives on a street at the bottom of a steep hill and it's wild to see the fog and cold air settle there) and I get some rough winter winds up in the sky where I live. But it's a given that despite some of the colder than normal winters, the overall average here has climbed considerably thanks to the urban heatsink effect of dozens of skyscrappers downtown that didn't exist before 1984. Even then, I've lived here all my life, which is well over 40 years and grew up with macs planted all around my neighborhood and not a soul protected them. Some years they had less bloom but they usually made a comeback the following year.

The zipcode finder here is not accurate unfortunately and is way off in many cases. This place took the USDA map and broke it down by state so you can see the detail better and you'll note the Zone 7 right there cutting through Philly.

There's some great data accessible from the Franklin Institute that goes back to 1872 when the first recordings were made. That location was and continues to be one of the reporting sites along with Independence Hall, and the various airports, in some cases recording the official data before the NWS came into existence. There are a number of official sites throughout the city.

Here is a link that might be useful: Franklin Institute Weather Data

Hmmmn, interesting Jenny. All the new books I have, including the new ones published by an author from Morris Arboretum from UPenn points that I am in zone 6. It is a great news if I am really in zone 7 but then again I lost so many old woods from my macs this year. It makes me wonder. I always thought that boundary of zone 7 goes to Delaware. Do you really think wind chill factor is not harmful to plants especially hydrangeas? Don't you think that strong chilly winds could dessicate their branches? I know what you mean, Philadelphians don't protect their macs and I always see every year that their shrub is covered with bloom but I usually noticed this happening with small properties near the foundation of their houses, so it makes their hydrangeas behave microclimatic.

Lerissa - the USDA that does the map currently lists Philly as "6b/7a". All of this is under revision for a new map due at some point in the future. The person responsible for posting it on the USDA website is a regular in the Mid-Atlantic Forum, who goes under the name "KimKa". :-)

Sure the winds can be harmful but it doesn't have to be the temperature of them but just the very existence of them (and especially over an extended period of time) that can be harmful to many plants that are situated in a windy site. I have had poor plants dessicated in hot dry summer winds or cool wet winds from fall Nor'easters. It's one of those things where you hope to put it in a spot that has a windbreak nearby. There is definitely a microclimate thing going on with hydrangeas in general around here but all I know is my mom has a mac that isn't near the foundation and had grown to almost 6ft and out of control a several years ago:

and has been since cut back over the past couple years. It's back up to about 5ft tall now.

I am closely following this and other threads on oakleafs because one of my sisters gave my other sister two - a "Snow Queen" and a "Snowflake" and they are planted in very different spots. One is in a west-facing location right next to the house foundation. The other is probably 150ft away from the house along a west-facing border of her backyard not far from an old established unknown lacecap hydrangea near the creek at the back of the property that was there when my sister bought the house. So it should be interesting how these two do! Both spots are sortof in protected, part sun locations, but protected in very different ways (one by the house and the other by nearby trees and shrubs). I know that the Azalea Garden down by the Art Museum has a beautiful row of oakleafs that have to be over 4ft tall with large panicles and I look forward to when they bloom!

Very interesting post Jenny! When I get the chance later, I will post my oakleaf picture last year of dated May 28th and this time's. I was very surprised to see the growth difference in just one year. And last year's blooms were much earlier than this year's, right now the panicles haven't really opened yet, maybe because of the colder weather we have this year in the area. Even my clematis and other perennials are blooming late.

Oh yeah... there are a bunch of things that are running late now. It was weird but earlier in spring, the daffodils and later tulips were blooming together because of the little warm spell but now other things are behind. My clematis is only about half as big as it was this time last year.

I was by my sister's yesterday BBQing and caught some pics of her babies. They were 1 gallon plants. She had removed the tags and forgot what she planted where...lol... But judging by the bloom on one, it looks to be the "Snowflake" (which is supposed to be a double). It's wild but when she planted it, she had cleared the area and now it's overgrown again with pernicious garlic mustard that she is continually removing:

Bloom closeup:

And judging by the doubling in growth of the other, I am thinking the below is the "Snow Queen", which is supposed to eventually get big:

She already moved a peony and I bet that clump of daylilies are going to have to move too. LOL My sister has always loved oakleafs so hopefully these will do okay for her!

They look great in the pics Jenny, but I don't know if you can compare the Oakleaf performance by the locations alone as SnowQueen is supposed to be more cold hardy than most of the other cultivars. It is the one listed as cold hardy to zone 5 (with some winter dieback if not protected) by UConn and UFLA agri sites.

As for the zone numbers game, I drew reference from the same USDA zone chart that Jenny posted the link to, but I can also attest to the warmer climate just by believing my eyes. I visit the Delaware River Valley twice a year. Spring and Fall. (Grew up close to the Delaware Water Gap) I monitor the fall foliage carefully to plan my trips and the one thing I know for sure is that (year after year) there are 3 or 4 places in the northeast that are just starting high fall color when all of the surrounding areas (north of the Mason Dixon line) are totally finished with the show. Those places are: Boston harbor area, Long Island, south Jersey and southeast Pennsylvania all listed at zone 7 and all still have foliage well into November with SE-PA and SW-NJ lasting the longest of all. As I said previously, microclimates abound but, SE PA is definitely much warmer than the Water Gap in NE PA which is listed as zone 6.......yg

Thanks for the additional info yg! Look forward to seeing how these babies do. The oakleafs are very dramatic - particularly when mature.

I just planted a 3 yr old SnowQueen in Feb 2005 and I am not exaggerating when I say it has doubled it's size. It is almost as big as me. (let me also say that I am not the tallest person at 5'0) It is growing like a weed in every direction with many new stems. It doesn't look like I'm going to get blooms this year but that's a sacrifice I am more than willing to endure in light of the incredible and healthy growth phase that is happening now. (and we still have at least 4 months of growing season left down here) Although I love the blooms, Oakleaf is all about the leaves to me anyway. It looks great even without blooms. I will try to post a before and after pic toward the end of the season. I have heard that they are slow growers up north but nothing could be further from the truth down here.....yg

I am posting my last year's and this year's growth of my oakleaf (specific kind unknown). It had no diedback on any stem from the past winter. And although I do agree that being near the East Coast gives me an advantage than other Western zone 6 or the more inland, for me it is still a challenge keeping alive the old woods of tougher macrophyllas (like Nikko). Without the wind chill factor, I believe my macs hydrangeas would survive better from the winter. Since the USDA zoning doesn't consider wind chill factor, I would be on a more conservative estimate of my zone regarding my hydrangeas that bloom on old wood. So really I am in zone 6b.

My oakleaf last year: May 05, 2004...

This year: May 30, 2005...

The railing of the deck is at 5 feet in height from the ground.
Every tip of this oakleaf shrub, whether thick or thin has panicle right now. As you can see, last year's panicles had bloomed already around this time of the year. My clematis last year (05/27/2004) was in full bloom around this time but not yet this year. And yes Jenny, my tulips were amazing this spring!!! The blooms lasted for so long! Even the squirrels had been cooperating and did not cut off my tulip blooms this spring, as if they too were appreciating the beauty of them. My hostas started sprouting and there the tulips still lingered, complementing the young colors of the hostas' leaves. I wish I would always have that lovely tulips-hostas combo every year in spring.

I don't really worry much about oakleaf cold hardiness. Jenny, I think your sister's oakleaf will be fine. Such a tiny shrub and yet it has a flower! As I said, I planted an 'Alice' oakleaf that had no flowers last year, this year I see that it will have some, a proof that it has developed flower buds last fall and survived the winter.

To everybody, it has been a great discussion! My friend who lives in North New Jersey near Manhattan has been asking me for advice on what kind of macrophylla she should plant. I always thought that she must be in zone 5 but looking at the new(?) USDA zone map points that she is just like where my zone is, which is 7 too. Anyway, I told her to plant Endless Summer because I have the best result from it among macs.

You know, the growth on these seems sortof scary! LOL I'm hoping my sister has enough space for the "Snow Queen" where she has it now. It's not far from a "Burning Embers" macrophylla, although I suppose she could attempt to train it to grow more more towards the front yard (it is sortof on the NW corner in a west-facing raised bed).

Lerissa - your "baby" loves you! :-D And yep, the late-spring bloomers are running a bit late this year. My clematis is about 1/2 the size that it was last year this time and my peonies are almost 2 weeks late. :\ And yeah, that little "Snowflake" was a 1 gallon but just as healthy as can be. The sister who bought it had mail-ordered and didn't realize the size but the bloom on it seemed to make her feel better about the gift. :-p

Can any shrub that grows over 2 ft in a year be considered slow growing? Not in my book. Just a guess Lerissa, but based on the leaf shape and on the way that the blooms on your Oakleaf are held upright, it looks like SnowQueen to me. I've read that Alice,SnowQueen, and PeeWee are very much alike except for size (largest to smallest respectively) and it's already too large, too soon, to be a PeeWee. I would be interested to hear (read) if anyone in a colder zone has experienced this kind of rapid growth.....yg

Close-up blooms of the unknown oakleaf: Dated 2004/June/08.

Correction in my earlier post. Last year's shrub is dated May 28th, 2004 not May 5th, 2004.

That unknown oakleaf is from Home Depot. You know how that store is, just listed as "Hydrangea Quercifolia". However, it is certainly cold hardy than any tougher macrophyllas (except my Endless Summer which had no dieback too).

PamRitchie, I'm sorry your having trouble with your Oakleaf Hydrangea. For the life of me, I can't figure out why your having any trouble at all. I also live here in Kentucky and am a Landscape Designer for a garden center in Lexington. I've had Oakleaf Hydrangeas in my landscape for many years and have put them in numerous landscape designs I've done even as far north as Maysville (in Mason County bordering the Ohio River). Never, even during the bitter cold in the winter of 1994, have I even lost a sprout due to cold damage.

You say, " It dies back to the ground every winter. " but yet it sends up new sprouts every spring? Are you sure we're talking about Hydrangea quercifolia, the Oakleaf Hydrangea here? It been my experience that if an Oakleaf gets this stressed the whole thing usually dies, but yet yours comes back every year?

I have lost whole Oakleafs due to excess water plus clay soil conditions. Especially last year when we had the second wettest year on record. Something just doesn't add up.

Why don't you post us a picture of the shrub and the conditions that surround it? That may help us figure out this problem.

Lee

In my experience (zone 5b/6) oakleafs are slow growing until established. 2 ft. of growth in a year? Not up here, and especially not when first planted. Also, up here, until established they can suffer a lot of dieback.

I moved it to an inside corner of the house that gets afternoon shade, but full morning sun. It will be protected from winter winds. It has already grown to 2 1/2 feet tall and is getting ready to bloom. This plant must not bloom on 2nd year growth. It died all the way back to the ground and now is is going to bloom. I moved it around the 10th of april.

Pam,

Are you sure this plant is an Oakleaf???? They set this year's blooms on last years wood. In other words, they overwinter the buds that form this year's blooms. If yours died back to the ground, it would be almost impossible to have blooms coming right now.

Are the leaves very large and shaped like those of a red oak tree? Got a picture?....Lee is right, something isn't adding up here. Sounds like you may have a Paniculata or some kind of Viburnum instead of an Oakleaf....yg

I am trying to set up a link. Hope it works

Here is a link that might be useful: garden pictures

Pam - if the first picture on the page from your link is what you are talking about, then that is not an oakleaf hydrangea. It looks like a macrophylla hydrangea. Maybe "Annabelle"... but owners of that one might know for sure because I am sure there are other whites around. "Annabelle" is a mac that blooms on new growth so it just might be that though - especially since you indicate your hydrangea dies to the ground each year.

Yes, it is the first picture. The flowers are turning pink around the edges,but are white in the center.

And now our mystery is solved. Definitely not the Oakleaf Hydrangea. I thought something just wasn't adding up. Cold injury every year here in Kentucky and blooming on new wood, I didn't think so.

Looks like HYDRANGEA ARBORESCENS 'ANNABELLE' to me. I hope it likes it's new home and does well for you. If you have any room at all in your landscape, do try and get yourself an Oakleaf Hydrangea. They're my favorite flowering shrub. Plus, super nice maroon-red fall color.

Lee D.

"Annabelle" is a favorite of mine! Hardy as a bone, bloom reliably, large snowball-like flowers. Enjoy!

Annabelle?...Looks like a macrophylla to me...maybe Mde Emile? She starts white and then fades to pink (or blue) and is very hardy. I don't have Annabelle yet, but it doesn't look like the pics I've seen. Do you Annabelle growers think it looks like one?.....yg

i have other paniculatas but not 'annabelle' and i agree that it looks more like a macrophylla. the leaves look too large, shiny and fleshy for a paniculata.

I vote for some sort of Macrophylla also. Paniculatas or Arborescens wouldn't die back to the ground for five years. The habit and leaves look like Macrophylla to me anyhow.

And it could start out with a whitish flower as you are seeing now and then later on show its true colors which could be white, blue or pink.

In which case, moving it probably isn't going to help you get blooms. For you, like me, if you want consisent blooming from this plant, you're going to have to do some sort of overwintering. Or trade it in on a Blue Billow or an Endless Summer.

Hay.

Have uploaded some more, better pictures. maybe thhis will help identify this Hydrangea.

Here is a link that might be useful: more pictures

Definitely a Hydrangea macrophylla (mophead). Not even a white variety at all!!!! This baby is blooming on the pink side. Boy has this been a roller coaster ride!! Probably will never know exactly what cultivar, but it looks like it runs along the Nikko/Dooley/All Summer Beauty lines.....It died to the ground and you already have these blooms? Maybe some buds on the crown survived.....yg

I have a five year old well established oak leaf hydrangia that has never put out one flower head. It's in sandy loam, receives western sun after 1:00 pm, gets adequate moisture, some what sheltered

I have asked all my Master Gardener friends and get all kinds of answers i.e acidify the soil, too much sun, but nothing works. Since they bloom on old wood I do not prune at all. It doesn't seem to put out buds on old wood or else they die off in the winter. It dies back about 1/3 over the winter

We drive by gardens every day with Oak Leafs covered with bloosoms

about the only use it has right now is a magnet for Japenese beetles, better it than my roses

I'm ready to jerk it and put in a P G

any suggestions

derfy,

Anyway you could post a picture? That would be very helpful....yg