Greg,..
the nursery industry removes most trees at the 9-10 year mark as too old to sell. By this time, most of the 'non-standards' (not straight) are already removed, year 5 - 7, if not sooner.

to the garden for the moment:
take a photo, enlarge to 8.5 x 11, overlay with tracing paper (or clear plastic shape w. erasable dry marker and draw in the desired shape when finished its growth. Not difficult, if you first start with the overall top outline, then fill in only the sides. Ignore the pruning technique or result, ie cloud pruning if desired. Just shape.
Photocopy, scan, get the next copy (2, one for nursery) with only shape. Now mark in where the branches will theoretically come from, drawing the trace line in the middle of the wavy lines that are the outline. The result will advise you what type of trunk line is needed, or whether or not a 2 trunked or 3 trunked pine may suffice (results in species selection in cold climate).
These branches ideally have the largest internode separations at the bottom, with the largest girth branch at the bottom, which can be grown in from a smaller branch - while others are removed over time.

Back to the drawing, further development on paper is possible as well as designing alternative growth patterns for what you may encounter in the field. EG: occasionally you will have a desirable trunk line, which has a large gap in the middle between two branches. An alternate growth pattern would be leaving one vertical candle which develops backward then forward to fill in the middle field, which in addition will weigh down the branch.
This requires thinking the next drawing, where the young pine has vertically inclined branches that will by weight be lowered over time. This means that the theory branches in your previous drawing will be ascending instead of horizontal, changing the location of the branches on the trunk.
Make the next copy.. 2 of course.

determine if the pine is needing to be wide spreading or semi-fastigiate, with multiple heads. Be ready to use either solution based on availability.

Take your first and third copy to the nurseries, ask for grade B stock which will be removed this or next year, ideally depending on height, -small needled sylvestris for a wide tree, or uncinata for vertical multiple heads or single, or mugo 'rostrata' (now normally uncinata) considering your climate. Lodgepole + crossed varieties works, check for moths.

Hold up the drawings comparative to the pine under examination,.. if you can convince them for liability issues, wander around by yourself. Do not feel pressured to find the exact one, rather photograph, go home, work over the design steps 2 -> 3 and start with revisions or afresh. This takes practise.

If you wish, ask them to grow it on for a year or two, spading and dropping back into the hole would be an option if done in the fall, done at needle drop for maximum energy return to the roots.

Note the different colors of needles and the reflections, or depth in the individual trees... ones that may be the same variety, may have tendencies to grow smaller or larger needles, which changes the effect in the landscape... think through the differing specimens, try the vignette...
anything else for the crashcourse? others? suggestions?
edzard

Just a suggestion, the pine that you pick out doesn't have to be perfect. You can always compromise here and there. Also, pick out a tree with as many more branches than you really need; this will allow for more freedom of choice, and also backups just in case you cut off a wrong branch. Something close to that: don't keep only the branches you think you want to keep. Keep a few extras, just in case. You never know what might happen, so it's better to be safe than sorry.

Last of all, have fun and good luck :D

-Audric

Hey Greg, I think you are getting some good advice. Have you ever been to J. Carlson Growers on Neuberg Rd. Rockford? Jon the owner will be more than happy to take you out in his field to look at stock/ If you need something he bends over backwards to help you find it. I have roamed around there alot. Its not the cheapest route but some plants are worth paying a little more for. And I bet alot of nurserymen would help you out, if not try another one.

And I might start a thread asking if there is a interest and would many in northern Il. drive to Chicago for a pine pruning class. If there is enough interest maybe we could get a pro to tech us??? What do you think Greg interested!

Good Luck!

Cheers Jando

Audric...
good advice in year 3. However, once again, __do not remove branches the first year unless you know what you are doing!! seriously.
For the first 5 years, theoretically one keeps ALL the branches, while the desireable ones are grown (technique) stronger than the weakened ones which are to be removed.
Removal should only be, IF, you can weaken a branch that is to be removed, after having reabsorbed all of it values, or when another desireable branch is threatened in the vertical line, then remove the undesireable one.. as long as the season timing does not weaken the growth.
This rebalances the growth selection using its own system rather than causing stress and imbalance in the internal pressure system of the tree. (etc.)

In 3 years... there is a lot of time to make selections.. and I repeat, in an ideal world, one keeps all the branches, thinning over time... then removing undesirables as a strengthening decision...

conversely,... why would you prune immediately? Perhaps it will enable me to explain the counterpoints...
thanks,
edzard

I am following this discussion avidly, since I have possibly the world's ugliest Japanese red pine (to counterbalance my beautiful new maple, I suppose). It looks as if it has endured multiple shearings for the Christmas tree market, and I think I'm expected to magically train it to overhang the waterfall! (A backhoe may become my pruning tool of choice, but not for a while yet. I'm presently proposing to remove and replace so many trees and shrubs in a restoration that's only two years old, that I don't want to push my luck!) I like the idea of sketching from a photograph--I wondered myself if that would be a worthwhile tool, and I think I'll give it a try.

Fran

First let me say I appreciate all the fine suggestions. advice and knowledge. Edzard, once again you have forced me to think and rethink (make me crazy though :D ). Jando, I would most definitely be interested in a trip to Chicago! And yes, I have been to Carlsons. I got my Red Dragon there. I was their yesterday and they are busy get ready for the season rush.

Audric, good idea on selecting a fuller tree as a way of increasing pruning options. I may have done just the opposite. I found a small austrian pine that had a nice curvy trunk line that I thought could be developed. I am just clueless when it comes to these things.

Is it only the candles on a pine that you can cut and reasonable expect them to branch out or can you cut back to any node so long as there are leaves present? I would love to see a great discussion on pruning pines and pruning in general. I am visual person so any before and after photos would be great too! :)

Also how about all us within striking distance of Chicago, can we take Jondo up and possibly get something planned! That would be great!

Thanks again everyone!

Greg

If there is that trip to Chicago, I hope that for those of us unable to go that some one could maybe document the pruning lessons in a series of photos that could be posted and discussed.

Fran

Hi Greg, If you e-mail your address I will copy the information I was given on Pine pruning and mail it to you. And you pinch by hand the candels on pines. And if pull out part of the pine needles on the main trunk and leave the needles on an area where you want a branch to grow it is possible a branch will develope where there normaly would not be one. And I learned you shouldn't be doing any branch removal for a while. I learned too late that you need to let your pine get astablished for a few years before removing branches. Your pine will be stressed from replanting. With the time you can learn what and how to remove the branches. And the trimming of pines in our area should be done before April so moths don't lay eggs in the fresh cuts and cause harm to our pines.

They had some Rhododendroms at Shopco in Belvidere that were nicely compact and had smaller leaves. They are northern grown and when they first get their plants they are in better shape. I saw the ones in your plan and you might want to check them out. They were beautiful plants and in great shape. I think they were $29. It was last week though so they might be gone. ;) in fact I may beat you to them!!!!!!!!!

And Fran if a class is started we will be glad to share our information with all of you. :) And I think a thread on pruning is a great idea.

Cheers Jando

and this one
bump

Sorry if this may be a little late, but I know of a way to increase back-budding on black/austrian pines (as you said you had one).

At autumn time (quite a bit before freezing, as you want it to have some time to recuperate before frost hits), cut back the branches back, but not so that there are no needles. In springtime, you will have a whole lot of small buds all over the tree which you can selectively rub off or keep. It helps if the initial form of the tree is there and you're only looking to fill it in.

-Audric