Glad i cancelled my subscription.

-christian

That confirms what I thought - people either love it or hate it.

Herb

" but in Japan they are akin to stories about Santa Claus and Greek Mythology.....""

What? nobody see a greek statue in a garden before? How about elves and gnomes? You wont see any of them in my garden but I do enjoy my turtle island- I think it shows off my varigated white pine nicely- same as my deer scarer- I enjoy its looks, ist that what really counts after all?

Steve -

I think most of us must find some of the JOJG's prouncements a bit uncomfortable. The two that make me squirm a bit are -

1. Their insistence on quality of construction - as though my roofed gate should have been built like a piece of fine Chippendale furniture. Aside from the fact that I have neither the skills to do fine carpentry, nor the inclination to spend money on employing somebody else to do it, that insistence also seems to me to be a bit inconsistent with the esteem accorded to things that have 'rustic simplicity', and

2. The stress that they lay on meticulous daily maintenance. I suspect that like a lot of other people, I just have to do what I have the time & inclination for...

You are quite right to enjoy your turtle island & white pine just as we enjoy having our crudely-made roofed gate & our water basins that have nothing to do with the tea ceremony, but that work fine as bird baths. As you say, that's what counts.

Herb

I have visited quite a few gardens in the Tokyo, Kamakura, Hakone, and Hiroshima/Miyajima areas. Some were meticulously maintained. Some were decidedly not. Some had "quality" constuction. Some were very humble and "rustic." And many of them were on the grounds of shrines, tended by men who appeared to be part of a religious order.

......Steve, I think this rock quite clearly represents a turtle - and moreover, it's in the Rikugi-en garden in Tokyo, so you're in good company.

Herb

{{gwi:1007924}}

The majority of gardens in Japan that the public may visit are in the grounds of Temples and Shrines. These are usually ancient gardens on historic sites. Ideal tourist attraction material. As with our churches in the west a source of available income will be exploited. However the majority of gardens and the people who maintain them have nothing to do with Shinto or Buddhist belief - its just that they are not open to the tourists - just like my own garden.

Graham -

You've put your finger on it. I think that on the whole, the JOJG's advice to gardeners is sound. Agonising about the finer points of Buddhism, Shinto & Zen misses the point. We don't want to attract tourists, we want to make our own gardens that we will enjoy and that will suit the way we live.

In this respect, the JOJG constantly provides down-to-earth, practical advice - how to better integrate the house and the garden, suggestions for arranging shrubs & rocks, pruning and so on. This (May/June 2005) issue for example has a very useful article about how to position rocks if you're making a dry stream.

Herb

Herb,

have now read the latest issue, they arrive a little later on this side of the pond, and yes i think the dry stream article is one of the more useful. I have to say there is a lot of the editorial opinion and attitude that I feel very uncomfortable with but still for practical advice there are no other mainstream english language publications available.
As you know I have been working for sometime in a major public japanese garden which has all the trimmings one comes to expect. Torii, a representation of a Shinto shrine, images of Inari, triad stones etc. As for my own simple dry landscape, well the majority of people who visit public gardens just would not 'get it', but I think it is a much better 'Japanese garden'

Graham

Far, far, away from my mailbox (again), I can't wait to see the JOJG article on dry streams - this summer's project.
All this hullaballoo about "authenticity and spirituality" is what makes me call my garden just that, a garden with what I believe are observable, fun, sometimes mysterious Japanese influences.
Dave

Well, as the person whose statement was quoted, I would like to clarify that it was taken completely out of context. I wrote an unpublished opinion paper about the Angel statues at Anderson Japanese Garden in Rockford, IL.(the paper was solicited by JOJG, submitted and then pulled by the PR people in my company before it was published) I talked about icons and symbols that people use in their garden. The previous statement was about Christian symbols used in gardens (I was thinking of the St. Francis of Assisi statue in my friends' garden and all the Jesus and Mary statues in gardens in my very Catholic neighborhood).

If anyone would like a copy of the opinion paper I wrote or to talk to me about it, please email me.

I am very sad and hurt that my statement was used in such a way. It is not the whole of my opinion nor is it my only opinion.

K. Berry

Francis of Assisi was a Zen master even if he wasn't familliar with the term:)
Articles about tea, but nothing about growing it.
Furniture etc.
I am awaiting the next issue, perhaps it will have an article on choosing fundoshi.

The statement they made in this issue about removing a gimmick a year is spot on as is the one about not enlarging a garden but upping it's quality and maintainace.

That which does not add, subtracts.

Gardenberry, I do not know if it was your quote they attacked, but I believe it was unprofessional and not representative of the spirit or culture of the subject.

I do not pretend to be any kind of expert, but this, and increasingly judgemental editorials/panel discussions of the publication concern me greatly. (What if the ideal and/or opinions they were addressing received similar consideration from the other side or the ones attacked?)

Based on small, but first hand experience that may be contrary to their pronoucement of fact, I am ready to cancel.

Shame on JOJG, using someone's words against their wishes under the veil of 'someone or other' is very unethical. This publication is sinking to new depths.

-christian

Judging from what both the JOJG & its opponents say about each other there certainly seems to be a good deal of animosity between them.

But leaving that aside, if we can, isn't the real bone of contention the question of whether it's necessary to be steeped in Shinto and Buddhism in order to be capable of making a Japanese garden, or on the other hand whether Shinto and Buddhism have much - or indeed any - relevance at all?

The problem seems to be, to me at least, one of mixing the past and the present. Sure, it's possible no one even in Japan thinks of religion and symbolism NOW, even when viewing very old public gardens, but that doesn't mean that the builders of these gardens THEN weren't steeped in religious traditions that were reflected in their designs. What JOJG tries to do is rewrite history to superimpose TODAY'S values, as they see them anyway, on the distant past. There's a disturbing vein of ultranationalism in some of their assertions as well. The series on comparing Chinese and Japanese gardens is a particularly egregious example: China bad; Japan good.

Gardenberry, I could tell you all about some of the bilge JOJG and their folks have spread about my own garden at Hillwood. "Libel" is a good description of some of it. You have my sympathy.

Fran

I suspect we may be starting to mix apples and oranges.

I agree that the JOJG is very much opposed to designers who say that you can't build a 'real' Japanese garden unless you keep Buddhism and Shinto in mind and include lots of symbolism of these things in it - and of course then persuade their clients to invest in what the JOJG views as unnecessary gimmicks.

But on the other hand I haven't read much that makes me think that the JOJG is asserting that Buddhism and Shinto never had any effect in the past.

What the JOJG concentrates on is what they call Sukiya Living - the art of constructing and maintaining high quality Japanese-style gardens for homeowners that actually fit and enhance the way the occupiers live.

Fran,

I don't recall seeing comments about Hillwood in the JOJG about Hillwwod - how long ago was it?

When I did an Internet search for 'Hillwood' it produced these pictures - is the the garden in question?

Herb

Click for picture 1

Herb, those are great pictures you found! Yes, that's "my" garden. The negative stuff about our restoration of the garden was probably around 2000-2001, in an issue I don't have, but I do have the defense of us written by Kendall Brown in a later one. Basically, they took us to task for not correcting all the hideous mistakes made 50 years ago by the Japanese landscape architect who designed it and dared to take into account the tastes of his American client.

It's odd, but it was my reading of the JOJG for the past few years that lead me to the conclusions I stated above. In fact, I would go even further. It's not just the articles or the opinion pieces--the real nasty stuff is often tucked into the answers to letters from hapless readers.

Anyhow, Herb and anyone else who wants to look at them, what do you think of the garden in the pictures? I know there are too many doodads like lamps, lanterns, and statuary, but Mrs. Post was an art collector and the gardens are littered with sculpture, even the pet cemetary. It looks like the pictures were taken about a year after the garden was completely reassembled and restored, in the first year that I was taking care of it.

Fran

Fran -

I'm glad you like the pictures. Surprisingly, I didn't find them using Google, but Excite. I've discovered that other search engines (such as Excite and Lycos & so on) often produce things that Google doesn't.

I think the Satyr between the two planters is cute. If the people who read the Hypertufa forum see it, I feel sure they'll get the urge to copy it.

I think most of us find that the JOJG sets very demanding standards & many people would rather they were a bit more tactful about it, but I guess the topic of garden design is a bit like politics, where tact is in short supply. There are a great many garden designers competing for business, just as there are many ambitious politicians - & in both fields strong & clashing opinions lead to acrimony.

Herb

Today I sent JOJG a letter, exerpted here as I find it interesting to see the ongoing discussion at this forum :
"As a long time subscriber and respectful reader of JOJG, I feel compelled to write regarding a disturbing tone that weaves throughout the writing from time to time. This has come squarely into focus with the May/June 05 issue where various contributors comment in Viewpoints on religion and Japanese gardens. In the comments here, as in many of the editorial comments over time, I find an undertone and attitude of elitism. It reminds me of a group of smug people gathered in a corner with their noses in the air, whispering among themselves and looking down on the misinformed masses, thinking "tsk, tsk, poor foolsÂif they only knewÂ".
Attempting to separate Zen history and the Japanese garden seems baffling to me. The simple experience of seeing the gardens at the temples in Kyoto would make such an attempt seem ridiculous. There are many rewards to be found when one begins the study of this unique area of Japanese history and culture. One course interweaves with another and leads to enriching experiences. One of the best guides I know, "Kyoto A Contemplative Guide" by Gouverneur Mosher, published originally in 1964 by Tuttle, combines the history of Kyoto and the development of the Zen sects, with an excellent description of the gardens and the temples. It was an invaluable companion that enabled me to explore Kyoto quietly and alone both times I visited that city. The experience I had there left a permanent and transformative influence in my life.
I will continue to subscribe to JOJG. It is a wonderful publication that provides a singular resource for expanding oneÂs knowledge of gardening in the Japanese way. For those interested enough to seek out the deeper layers of the history and techniques behind this unique form of expression, it stands tall. The first time I read an issue I recognized immediately that there was a strong dedication to showing the deep discipline and commitment one undertakes in deciding to truly explore Japanese gardening. I would suggest that your work is noble and generous, and does not need to be diminished by what often feels like a reprimand to those who find and value the connection between the mundane and the spiritual in the experience of the Japanese garden.
Respectfully and with warm regards,
Wall Matthews

Wall,

Yours is an interesting perspective, and it's true that some people get irritated by some of the strong opinions expressed in the JOJG. But they don't offend me - if they sometimes sound elite, I reckon it's because they are elite.

Is it perhaps a matter of the readership that the journal's addressing? On the whole, I would say it isn't so much a readership that wants to become immersed primarily in the history of, and wants to draw inspiration from, the ancient temple gardens of Kyoto (sublime as they are) as an audience that wants to make smaller, more intimate gardens that will enhance their own lives - introducing what the JOJG has taken to calling Sukiya Living.

When a link to the site below was posted, Jeepster made this comment, with which I agree - "It's good to see how average everyday Japanese do it. A lot more laid back and unpolished. You can see the priniciples at work in normal humdrum life. Some of these are definitely not meant to be display gardens.". The examples shown on this site may not meet the JOJG's standards, but they most certainly give a 'feel' for the Japanese way of doing things. I think that they show, as it were, a different aspect of Sukiya Living. I wonder if other people agree?

For me, the bottom line so far as the JOJG is concerned is that whenever something that they've published has persuaded me to change our garden in a way they recommend, I've been pleased with the result.

Herb

Click for the Japanese Homes and Gardens site

Further on this subject, from JGardens website :
"Muso Kokushi (also called Soseki) was perhaps the most influential early garden designer in Japan, but his contributions to Japanese culture were not limited to gardens. He was born in 1278. He began studying Buddhism at the age of 6. In 1294, he left Koshu for Kyoto, where he studies the Zen sect with Muin ZenshiÂ.he was called to Kyoto where he became the abbot of the monastery at Nanzenji. He became a key advisor to the first Ashikaga shogun, Ashikaga Takauji (1305-58) Through his and Soseki's influence, Zen became the dominant Buddhist sect during the ensuing Ashikaga shogunate. Takauji and Soseki had a Zen temple built in each of the 66 provinces. Takauji's patronage also resulted in the temples and gardens at Tenryuji and Saihoji. Soseki was also responsible for re-opening trade between Japan and China, teaching an astonishing number of students and writing an enormous corpus of poetry and other Zen works. His work with gardens is well known, but, unfortunately, while several translations exist on his contributions to Rinzai Zen Buddhism -- Dream Conversations, 1996, translated by Thomas Cleary, is a good example -- little has been written on his garden work in English. The only exception is a series of articles by Norris Brock Johnson on the gardens at Tenryuji and Zuisenji. A short list of his garden work includes: Saihôji (c. 1339) Tenryuji (c. 1343 )Rinsenji Zuisenji
Eihoji Enkaku-ji Erin-ji Jochi-ji and Tonanzenin".
JOJG attempts to fleece this with the following statement :
"Muso, a Zen monk and creator of gardens for the Ashikaga shogunate, made a name for himself as a garden builder, but at the time he was excoriated by other Zen monks. One monk wrote, criticizing him: "People practicing Zen should not construct gardens." He went on to say that MusoÂs gardens were far removed from the meaning of the sutra."
They sure seem to have an agenda......