Look in yellow pages or call the city, etc for a municipal compost facility. They may be free, there are several places in Dayton, Cinci area. Is the cost 28+23 per yard or 28X7 + 23 one time?

Start the search and get back to me.

$23 one time delivery of however many cu. yds.! I will do a search and there is yardwaste
place less than 2 miles from us, but in the neighboring county, but, only available to residents
of that county, as I understand it!

But--I will definitely see if I can't find a way not to pay so much and get a better *mix*!

janice

Okay--I found that our local township has what they are calling 'mulch' which is only tree trimmings ground up and sitting for a year.

I was referred to a place named 'BioSource' where they have what they call a "Garden-Blend Compost" made up of sand, topsoil some manure and leaves at $28.00 a cu. yd. and straight compost, aged 1 year made up of leaves, some manure and some wood chips at $15 a cu. yd. with 8 yds. or more free delivery and less than that a one time fee of $15.00! I'd go for the "free"! :o)

I'm looking to top dress established hosta and I am also starting to amend a new area for planting. I don't really need a *volume* to build up the area but I do want to enrich it!

So, what say you? Which would you go for?

janice

The tree trimmings are the best because they have the most varied input giving "of course" varied output. The varied material has all the nutrients you need for the plants. You will have a small amount of sand and you dont need any and leaves, the manure is just another organic product that isnÂt a bad thing but if you use the tree trimmings you have all you need.

"Old Wives Tale"; Mulch robs nitrogen.
Truth is; mulch does not take nitrogen from the soil if placed on top.

If the tree trimmings doesnÂt suit your taste then top dress with whatever you like, I use a method I call broadcasting. I take a shovel and pitch it, with a little practice you can cover with a small amount saving on more expensive mulch.

Place this on top of the soil, do not incorporate, much research to support this that I won't go into. DonÂt make the fancy planting hole, not needed and it in fact interferes with growth and can be the source of crown rot.

If you care to prove the negative about the fancy planting hole, create your best-amended soil, dig a hole about 3 times (recommended widely) the soil ball size. Put this best-amended "soil" into the hole and walk away, come back in 6-8 weeks and dig carefully down to the bottom where your roots would be and smell. It will stink probably like a babies diaper, you are trench composting which is anaerobic producing ammonia which will kill the roots leading to die back possibly all the way to the crown.

Janice, I would go take a "look see" at the stuff first to see if it's something you want in your garden. Many "composts" are just piles of ugly sticks.

What does your community do with their yard waste? Call Public Works. My village offers triple ground hardwood mulch for the taking. I collect about a cubic yard every week in dozens of HD plastic bags. Riding stables have mountains of weedfree aged stable bedding, excellent in spring and fall. Lovely stuff. Free is good.

dont buy anything until you go out there... touch it.. feel it... squish it.. smell it ... and make a decision based on such ....

it should smell like soil.. not rotting compost... made that mistake before..

it should compact like a snowball ... but fall apart as soon as you release it... no need to buy muck aka clay ...

it should be light weight... not heavy ...

and the stuff in it should be 'well rotted' .... you dont want active culture ...

i bought from the city once.. burned the heck out of everything.. it was too rich in nitro .. probably from rotting grass.. it stank ... and it was mucky .. live and learn ... it probably just needed another year to break down ...

and buy an extra yard or two ... and make an extra pile to use over the years .... pile it behind the garage or somewhere out of sight ....

good luck

ken

>
Tell that to the farmers who are injecting anhydrous ammonia directly into the soil.
When I plant tomatoes, I dig a deep hole and put all sorts of stuff like composted cow manure, blood meal and alfalfa meal in the hole and they sure don't have burned roots!
And the truth is anytime wood decays it robs nitrogen from the soil...BECAUSE the bacteria necessary for the decomposition to take place need nitrogen to grow. BUT when those bacteria die at the end of their life span, they give back the nitrogen to be used by the next generation of organisms.
If wood chips in the soil are so harmful and rob the soil of nutrients, why do so many commercial growers mix it with their soil and in pots as a soil conditioner?
Linda C

I use Sweet Peat which is produced in Medina County Ohio. This is GREAT stuff...around $7.00 a bag, size of regular mulch bags. Bulk, it depends on who's selling.

Here's the web address:

http://www.sweetpeet.com/

What's really nice, is the stuff amends your soil and at the end of season or spring can be worked in. It has a dark brown look and when wet almost black.

Deb

MaryAnn's point is what it looks like but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good for the soil or your plants. That pile of ugly sticks will be good for your soil unless they offend your appearance taste. And yes I would look and see if it suits your taste. I'm not addressing taste except mine.

Most compost facilities grind up the wood chips, the question is how finely they are ground. Finely ground creates more surface area which means they will decompose faster but they all decompose sooner or later. Course material or less finely ground will suppress weed seed germination more, finer ground makes a nice seed starter for weed seed. I like both used in different areas depending on size, type of plants, etc or just to paint a different landscape effect.

If you run the mulch up to the lawn and just cut slightly into the mulch it is edged well enough for me. As the grass begins to move into the mulch, just edge with roundup, add a little mulch along the edge and you are finished edging. The bits of mulch thrown into the lawn will increase fungal growth improving grass growth and drought resistance. In fact if you have access to sawdust, broadcast the sawdust into the lawn as you might fertilizer and give the entire lawn this improved fungal numbers.

Ken dont be offended, Ive spent 30 years in horticulture and owned and operated a community compost facility for 15 years and studied the subject most of that time. Im not saying I know everything but I know some things very well and I wont address areas Ive not studied.

K; dont buy anything until you go out there... touch it.. feel it... squish it.. smell it ... and make a decision based on such ....

B; So, you do all these things, do you have the experience or knowledge to understand all the responses you have to these "test"?

K; it should smell like soil.. not rotting compost... made that mistake before..

B; the bad smell is usually anaerobic decomposition like a babies diaper.

K; it should compact like a snowball ... but fall apart as soon as you release it... no need to buy muck aka clay ...
B; Doesnt matter and clay is fine for the soil but most dont want it as mulch.

K; it should be light weight... not heavy ...
B; Doesnt matter if it is light weight or not unless it has a lot of dirt and you dont want the dirt.
K; and the stuff in it should be 'well rotted' .... you dont want active culture ...
B; to avoid an active culture would require a compost pile maybe 20-30 years old and you would still get some organisms just fewer because the organic food has been consumed and is now humus.

K; i bought from the city once.. burned the heck out of everything.. it was too rich in nitro .. probably from rotting grass.. it stank ... and it was mucky .. live and learn ... it probably just needed another year to break down ...
B; Back to the anaerobic (absence of oxygen) decomposition, this occurs when the piles are not turned and allowed to compost in place.
Two ways to identify;
1, is the smell like babies diaper.
2, is what looks like black ashes, the organic matter became so hot in the anaerobic condition that it burned but will be black because it overheated in the absence of oxygen which trapped the carbon like the Indians in the southwest created black pottery.

K; and buy an extra yard or two ... and make an extra pile to use over the years .... pile it behind the garage or somewhere out of sight ....
B; Sounds like a great idea.

>
L;Tell that to the farmers who are injecting anhydrous ammonia directly into the soil.

Farmers are mainly doing this in ground that has been plowed, not under growing plants so I stand by the statement that you dont want ammonia under the plants roots.

L;When I plant tomatoes, I dig a deep hole and put all sorts of stuff like composted cow manure, blood meal and alfalfa meal in the hole and they sure don't have burned roots!

B; Except that I may be right, use all of these things as one might do a "lasagna composting" and see if it works as well or better.
I would do this; cover the garden debri and mulch on top of the cover (newspaper, 8-10 sheets) with all the things you use to help then punch a small hole next spring and plant.

L;And the truth is anytime wood decays it robs nitrogen from the soil...BECAUSE the bacteria necessary for the decomposition to take place need nitrogen to grow. BUT when those bacteria die at the end of their life span, they give back the nitrogen to be used by the next generation of organisms.

B;All you say is almost true but the nitrogen is either taken from the air by nitrogen fixing bacteria or from the surface of the soil where the wood is laying but not from the root zone. Your second BUT fixes the question of nitrogen depletion with this addition, all of the nitrogen brought to this decomposition by the nitrogen fixing bacteria becomes available to the plants at some point in the process. I stand by my statement that decomposing wood does not rob the soil of nitrogen. I think we both understand the process and there is no disagreement.

L;If wood chips in the soil are so harmful and rob the soil of nutrients, why do so many commercial growers mix it with their soil and in pots as a soil conditioner?

B;You are mixing two different systems, various woody chips used in pot culture do not really go through the decomposition process and are only there to hold the plant up while the grower delivers water, food and usually micro-nutrients. These wood chips such as pine fines need to sized properly and it helps if they have broken down some because it helps them to hold moisture in the container. Side note; if is not good for potting media to do much composting which leads to problems with percolation, capillary water movement, air movement and releases gases and chemicals not easily dealt with in a pot. Generally in pot culture one needs inert or nearly inert media.

Okay, let me see if I understand all of this--nope, I don't--but let me see if I can put this all in
perspective:

I have a fairly large new planting area in front of our home! It will be up against the house and
will be the main thing you see when approaching. It is an extension of a sad looking pre-existing area,
that is now confined by landscape block.

Part of this area was prepared by laying out newspaper 8-9 pages thick, and some card-board boxes!
I didn't get it all covered before the guys pouring a new front porch and two walkways dumped the
removed soil/clay and some sod. The deepest area is probably 2 ft. and it did not get covered
with the papers etc. but was very sparse, not much grass and some very small weeds, as this was in
front of the 12 ft. extension to the length of our home.

Now--can I just start over with the newspaper idea on top of what has been dumped and then add
the wood mulch etc.?

If so--do I have to wait A YEAR to plant all these hosta and shrubs I've accumulated for this
area? Slump!

You can add wet newsprint/cardboard at any level, earthworms love it. Be careful with wood mulch close to a frame house (termites).

You could plant in it right away, but I'd let the materials settle some first. Or you could sink your containers there and plant them in the soil later after the ingredients "marry".

Maryann that looks much like my area looked when I first planted directly in the finely ground hardwood mulch that had been composted maybe 6 months. Which is what you should get from a compost facility.

I offer if the plants have been in this area since at least last fall they are sending roots into the media below. Further if you leave them until this fall the roots will be so far out of the holes in the bottom that it will damage roots to decant and plant.

Janice if you go on and replicate what Maryann has then you can walk away, just come back often and water since this type planting will not hold water well for a couple of years. It will also need a bit of fertilizer since it has not become a working soil yet. It is more like a big pot that will become dirt (soil), also it will need as much more compost added as it settles or is consumed by the organic process of decomposition. This whole area will be composting like what is called sheet composting.

Dont slump Im describing an easy process.

LOL, EO! Okay, I won't *slump*! I had thought to do that with the pots, maybe until Fall. I'm thinking, I will only need about 6" of mulch right now, but will continue to add more each year as it composts!

I had purchased 2 multi-eyed pots of 'August Moon', and divided them up to be 7 pots worth and have two multi-eyed pots of Halcyon which I will do the same with!

And, thank you, Mary Ann and ken for the suggestion to pre-shop before buying or *getting* it free! I don't want alot of *junk* that's not compost worthy to be in what I do get.

About those *termites*! I was just discussing that with my neighbor. We do have a brick home, but that doesn't mean those *buggers" can't make an entry into it! So, should I consider keeping the mulch a foot or so from the house or can I treat the mulch for the termites. I'm abit afraid of much work with chemicals!

janice

If you have a "stick" built house, which means wood frame faced with brick then you need termite protection. Without professional program you are playing a Russian roulette game with termites.

Planting the pots only causes a problem later, decant and plant the root ball in this mulch. You can make any decision you want later but you cant do that with the pots in the mulch. Root ball in the mulch can be lifted and handled any way you like, repotted appropriately depending on root growth or left where they are.

If you let me know who in your area that you are considering for the organic material Ill call and learn what they do and how they do it.

my point.. esther .. was simply don't walk to the counter and order it... make the salesman take you to the pile they are selling off of.. and SEE WHAT YOU ARE BUYING ....

if they don't have the time to allow you to see what you are buying .. or some lame excuse that you aren't allowed in the yard... WALK AWAY ...

and the sample on the counter may not be what is in the yard ....

i defer on all other analysis, to your experience ... but if it looks bad... smells bad ... it probably is bad ... we all have enough experience to know these things .... and if they are newbies.. after reading this.. they ought to know better also ....

if it looks like excrement.. and it smells like excrement .. it probably is ... lol

ken

EO--thank you for your offer to check out my possible sources! The free source is the Greene County Environmental Services, linked below. However, I'm sure they do as little as possible with the refuse they receive other than grind it up. The age of it is a concern and I'm not sure I could be certain that it is *aged* at all!!

The commercial source is 'BioSource', also located in this county. I haven't found a webpage for them but I do have a telephone number--937-372-5921.

Now, what I'm really worried about is that *termite* thing!! So, if I use the wood mulch or composts of any kind (?) even if I just confine it to the immediate areas surrounding the plants in front of our brick veneered home, I am taking a huge risk?? Slump--again!!!

Everyone I know, that has gone with termite protection has been taken to the cleaners! Well--at least I can say, it's rather pricey for those bait canisters which have to be minimal in costs to produce! Sigh!

Life sure gets complex even in *the garden* doesn't it!!!

janice

I have zero knowledge about termites but understand they are a huge problem in the South, maybe not so much in Ohio? I only mentioned it so you wouldn't pile it up against wood siding, a standard precaution.

I wouldn't ask a termite salesman about it. How about your County Extension Agent?

Good idea, Maryann--I will call the CEA!!!

Life sure gets complex even in *the garden* doesn't it!!!

Not really, we over complicate it with our fears.

Greene County is fine in fact did you call them? Bio-Source actually gets product from them, if it was you who called they probably didn't tell you that. They do not windrow and turn the product but that isn't a problem unless you are taking it from inside a large old pile that has gone anaerobic. They do grind it with a tubgrinder to reduce the size and that is what they should do and makes perfect mulch. Without reducing the size there is great fire danger and there is no way to dispose of a pile of sticks. Please dont become afraid of fire because there is little or no fire danger unless the mulch never gets water. There are a few fires each year, well studied, caused by putting mulch in an area that has no ground moisture coming up or water from the top such as under a porch that never has moisture. If there was a real danger you couldnt get fire insurance if you mulched.

The other danger that is minimal but possible, becoming anaerobic, which is easy to identify by the smell of ammonia. One side note, if you find a bag of mulch that has become anaerobic in the bag it is easy to fix. Anaerobic bacteria can only live in low or no oxygen environments, spread it out on the driveway allowing air to get to the mulch and the some of the bacteria will turn to aerobic bacteria (not a problem) but most will die. Water the mulch and let it dry again and use it.

Termite control is a cost/benefit analysis, if you would never get termites then it is expensive waste of money, if you do get them it would have been cheap. Termites are ancient specie adept at finding the wooden 2X4s in your house and very determined to do so.

Ken, I only took you to task because terms like looks bad or smells bad for a person who doesn't know what looking bad or smelling bad is still doesn't know what to do except pay more than they have to for someone who does know. So, I tried to break it down in a way the inexperienced could understand and apply.

as i expected you to do.. based on your background .... and info is power .. and you are providing the info/power ....

but i presume.. you would walk out on into the yard.. and touch/feel/smell the stuff ... and not rely on some snake oil salesman ... lol ...

anyway ... we are cool ... ken

anyway ... we are cool ... ken

I felt like we were and I wanted to keep it that way, this is like an AA meeting, everyone telling his or her tale.

We are a bunch of obsessive-compulsive collectors trying deal with our malady the best we can.

In the collective story one finds the answers.

How about this to add to the 'collection'of options to consider:

A few weeks ago, one of our frequent contributors told me of her use of composted horse manure--or the fresh- from-the-farm version!
I found that very interesting and *today* another forum buddy, emailed me privately, telling me that he uses the horse manure and straw
from the stalls of a fair grounds in the Fall and in the Spring! He has fantastic results!

I hope he will post with the "details" but if not I really appreciate his thouhtfulness in giving me his input, as well as all the others!

Lots to consider!

I'm leaning (in my thinking) towards the horse-manure and straw as a better option, when you consider the termite threat!

And, I like the idea of "Designer Poo"! "Wink-wink"-you may find it available on the web, before too long! LOL The shipping
could be steep, though!

EO, I did talk to both places referenced, yesterday and you did receive more indepth info than I would.
Thank you for doing the more indepth research for me! :O)

And, I do like ken's "hands -on approach" in making the decision to purchase *mulch* or regular compost--but--maybe not
with the "Designer Poo"! I think that could be acquired with faith in the provider!LOL

if you wont put it in your hand.. then you probably shouldnt put it in your garden.. dont you think ....

find a horse farm that has a pile that has been aged for a year ... unless you live at least 1/2 miles from any neighbor who has a nose ... never trust a farmer who flings poo all over the yard.. if you live in the city ... lol ...

i did sheep poo once... mild smell once it dried... but every time it rained you knew there was poo around ... for that season .... luckily i was in the city but had neighbors who were never in the yard ... nor opened their windows ...

ken

Horse manure is fine but it has a lot of undigested seed so you may have a lot of corn, wheat etc next year. No real problem and it works fine, not better but it works.

I know telling a person who is afraid not to be afraid doesn't help but forget the termite problem, mulch does not attract termites.

You have enough information and options to do a good job.

Well, in fact, I'm not really AFRAID or anxious about much in this life , but I am one to be cautious
when doing something that could pose a big problem on down the line!

So, maybe I'll do the 'poo' and the wood mulch on top! Is that overkill or maybe too much at one time?

The person who emailed me today with the suggestion of straw and manure, said his clay has no lumps
and looks like coffee grounds after doing the Spring/Fall applications! Sigh--what I would give for that!!!

I have been assured that even raw horse poo has virtually no smell once spread! Hard to believe but
I trust the one who told me that since it is a daily event, for them to deal with such stuff!
I do think I would find it difficult to stick my bare hands into anything that had a *history* of being
*body waste*! Arghhhh!

A thread I couldn't resist. Been gone for a couple of days and came home to this polemic, so can't help myself. I'm a student at the Morton Arboretum in Lisle, Illinois pursuing a couple of certificates - one of which is the 'Naturalist' certificate. Also, DH was in the sewage treatment business all his life. (sold industrial sewage treatment plant pumps). So I know what can be accomplished with the use of like materials and I know what anaerobic vs aerobic means in terms of benefits to soil and composting.

First, I have to agree with EO in several areas, especially the subject of not wanting ammonia under the plants roots. To wit: 'Farmers are mainly doing this in ground that has been plowed, not under growing plants so I stand by the statement that you dont want ammonia under the plants roots.' I talked to a couple of profs at Morton today and can offer a quote or two that may be helpful, as well as a footnote of my own. I quote an instructor who specializes in agriculture and a botany instructor who is also a professor at Northern Ill University:

"What is anhydrous ammonia made of and how does it affect crops?" This was my question. Answer from Ag Prof: Anhydrous ammonia is a nitrogen fertilizer commonly used on crops such as corn. It is injected into the soil as a fertilizer. Due to the chemistry of anhydrous ammonia, the injection band initially is toxic to plant growth because of high pH. In a relatively short period of time after injection into the soil the ammonia is converted to nitrate and the pH of the injection band decreases. Nitrate is the primary form of nitrogen used by corn from the soil. At this point the corn plant can use the fertilizer and provide higher yields.

Nitrogen is the nutrient which is the most limiting of corn yield on most fields. Nitrogen is needed by the plant because it is a critical component of proteins. Deficiencies affect all aspects of crop growth including chlorophyll production. Plants short on nitrogen are stunted and have a light green color. The exact amount of fertilizer needed depends on the productivity of the soil. Nitrogen fertilizer is not typically applied to soybean. Soybean is a legume plant with the capability of fixing atmospheric nitrogen to meet its nitrogen need. Consequently, farmers do not need to apply fertilizer nitrogen to grow this crop.

Unless you have a clear understanding of the nutrient needs of your soil as well as your PLANT, you can be either wasting your time and/or your money and possibly harming the plant. Agribusiness requires much different methods of growing than does plant culture in gardening."

And according to my botany prof: 'Hostas are capable of fixing atmospheric nitrogen, as are most plants -- especially those not grown in fields which are continually plowed.'

We talked about the nutrient-depleted soil from which our mainstay crops grow. Bottom line: grow your own food in soil you make yourself!

I have been using the AACT method of composting (aerated activated compost tea) using worm castings. The worm castings grow microbial organisms within a day or two of 'cooking' in a 25 gallon container with a pump for aeration. It must be applied quickly when finished or the organisms will die as soon as the air is cut off. It is sprayed on foliage and the soil is drenched almost weekly. Since I started this four years ago, I have incredibly friable, sweet and worm-filled soil and have watched my garden explode. I disturb the soil as little as possible - only top dress. And EO, as well as a few others both on this forum and the composting forum, validated this method for me.

After having been further educated by reading some of the info here, I've been scooping up some of the 'natural' mulch on the floor of nearby wooded areas, (the older the better) and topdressing the soil. Also, slowly adding a few different things like alfalfa, corn meal, and/or rice flour also increases microbial organisms, although I have yet to find alfalfa meal -- Mary Ann (GW) has a source not far from us in Northern Ill which I need to get to.

Plants select for their needs and the organisms select for the plants. Eventually something approximating equilibrium in the soil is attained, as long as the soil is 'fed' with mixed organic matter and the AACT is done regularly.

One more note: Grass-fed cow manure is far preferable to corn-fed - I have this on high authority but cannot tell you from whom -- he must remain anonymous -- but he's a hosta vendor.

Now if I could just get DH to drop the clubs and help me do all this . . . (I shouldn't complain - he does brew the tea!)

Westy

Westy--thank you for dropping by and commenting and educating us.

Now, is it as complicated as it sounds, to come up with the *tea* you mentioned?

janice

Westy, you've been doing your homework! I understood the big picture about ammonia injection but not the detail you've explained thank you.

That hosta have the ability to fix atmospheric nitrogen is a new one for me. Is it symbiotic bacteria? Would like to know more? Can you or will your Prof give me a place to study this little gem.

You should be able to find alfalfa meal at any livestock feed store, look for horse supplies near you. Alfalfa is said to have a growth hormone, dont remember the name that stimulates growth.

You can use horse, chicken, any manure, and forest floor duff or just brew your compost or mulch in your AACT brewer to add more organisms for different batches such as a horse poop tea then a separate brew of something else. Alter the sugar sources and amounts but only use raw sugars.

Westy, thanks again, your investigation points out clearly how mixing row cropping, and pot culture theory leads to misunderstandings about perennial gardening.

Janice, you can make your own AACT brewer, search the web for "Activated Compost Tea brewers". Simply it is a 5gal bucket and aquarium aerators. It requires a fairly large air pump and 2 bubble stones. I had considered marketing a system to retailers, my partner had all the parts and retail unit worked out when his son got cancer and we dropped the idea. It really is a simple wonderful thing to give your garden. Westys success is common of reports on the results with AACT, it is being used in many underdeveloped countries with distribution problems of fertilizers, actually cheaper in the long run just a bit more labor intensive. Increases yield and taste in tomatoes greatly.

Hi Janice - NO. Go to www.soilsoup.com - don't know why it doesn't hyperlink, but . . .

I found this stuff while shopping at Sid's (nursery) in Bolingbrook, IL and they wanted 6 bucks a gal. I bought two and used it the next day (you have only a 24-hr window then the microbes begin to die off). I nearly fell over after a few days - my containers were astounding (more blooms, brighter colors) and the whole garden went nuts.

I used a foliar sprayer that time -- didn't want to drench the soil at that price. Sid's was also selling the pump system so I went back a week later - two sizes: 25 gal and 100 gal. I only have room for the 25 gal. You can also buy these online and they have sales toward the end of summer. I think the 25 gal was about $125.00. I wish I had room for the 100 gallon - could sell it to my neighbors who want to know my secret. When I tell them they just look at me funny. (These are not hosta lovers nor are they even gardeners but they want their places to look pretty and don't even water!!!) ANYWAY, it's amazing and it's only one way to do it but much less complicated than most tea systems or even vermiculture. And much less work if you have a DH slave who'll clean the pump!

There's a forum re the system (of course) on their site. I had no idea that it was strengthening the plants' immune system - nor did I know plants even had immune systems! I have far fewer pests (no, the slugs still need Sluggo to die), and far more blooms on the annuals. Also haven't nearly the extent of fungal disease on susceptible plants, and no blackspot on anything since then. The hostas perked up and the second flush that first summer was beautiful. I should be working for these people.

As soon as my son finishes my flagstone path, I will post some pics. It's not so pretty out there right now with that going on.

And I just looked at how long that post was. I should start a post apologizing for being so long-winded. Oh well -- I don't post often, fortunately.

Westy

Hey - You old nightowl (EO) - we're three minutes apart. If we were closer, we could go to IHOP for pancakes.

I was going to give her more info re other brewers, but I thought I said enough and don't want people to puke when they see my posts -- it was long enough.

I'll do some more homework tomorrow re 'atmospheric nitrogen fixing'. Jeez. I'll never get my hostas planted.

Westy

Myabe I jumped in over my head but I thought soil bacteria that fix nitrogen got if from the air in the soil. Don't really know, if you ask the experts let me know the source of the nitrogen the organisms fix.

Rules;
"You don't know what you don't know."
"Some times what you know you know ain't so."

This post has been very enlightening. Thanks for all the information and for taking the time to do all that research and typing, I'm sure other members have learned a thing or two here as well.

EO to add to your rules

The more I know, the less I realize I know.

June

Oh no--don't apologize for the length of your response, especially when so informative!!! I have been collecting rain and cold-water that normally would go down the sink drain to get to the hot temp. in a large 50 gallon trash can outside my back door, where the gutter tends to overflow! I've wanted to adapt one of the down-spouts to more efficiently collect rainwater--when it does finally rain around here! So far, what I have is working well, until DH succeeds in getting what he wants, one of those fancier gutter systems that cost A FORTUNE!!!

So, I could definitely get *into* the system you are talking about! Thank you so much for the info!!!

janice