Thank you for the report Keith. North Carolina Speckled Long Greasy Cutshort is about the longest season bean that I can grow for seed here and this year the seed crop will not be large even though they were started early in pots. I am very glad to hear that Red Eye Greasy is earlier. Quite a lot earlier it seems.

I used to grow really long season beans as a challenge but now I am more interested in beans that are reliable food crops for this area. - Dick

I'm with you Dick. If I have trouble getting a crop out of something, I don't want to regrow it. Unless of course, it was a very odd year and everything did poorly, I'll give anything a second chance then.
Remy

So I, as you may have all noticed from the other post, I went to the heirloom seed swap at Bill Best's. We did discuss the Red Eyed Greasy. He has a similar bean from Tennessee. The pic below shows when we were comparing beans. Everyone turned into the paparazzi, lights were flashing everywhere, and as you can see I look confused, lol.
The bean is NOT a greasy. It is not as fuzzy and tacky as some beans. It has a smoothness to it, and that is why the original grower probably called it that, but it is not a greasy. Bill said it is actually a Fall bean. His bean from TN that is similar also has the same ripening early trait as the Red Eye Greasy. His bean does not have as strongly marked of a red spot. The Red Eye Greasy looks like little angels when held up the right way. But we definitely agreed that they were very similar and most likely off shoots of each other like two sisters.
So now what to? The name really should have the Greasy dropped.
Keith?
Remy

Oh and I forgot to mention that keeping it just Red Eye would not be good in my opinion since there is already a Red Eye bean.
Remy

Remy, does the bean I grew this year 'San Antonio' (pic below) look like Bill Best's red eyed bean or just another bean with a red eye? I'm of the understanding the bean 'San Antonio' is one from the Heritage Seed Library but I don't know where it originally came from, the U.K., U.S., Europe? Annette

Annette,
It did look more like that but not as strongly marked as I recall.
Remy

This photo is just so everyone can see what I meant by the angel shape of the Red Eye beans.
Remy

Well,

I am no bean expert.
If it isn't a greasy bean then what is it?
And, what do we want to call it?
I claim no naming rights, I'm just the guy sharing some seeds.

Keith

Hmm. Well, there are at least two runner beans with the word Lima in their names. And some cutshort beans do not have square ends.

So the bean has a reduced amount of fuzz and a greasy feel... I am looking for any excuse at all to leave the name the same!

Where are you Kathy?

You're right Dick, as far as the runners go you and I both have one. The bean came from Tennessee right? What about just adding Tennessee to Red Eye, that has a nice ring to it. 'Tennessee Red Eye Greasy' or just 'Tennessee Red Eyes' or, just leave it as it is.

Annette

Humm... what I wrote this morning is not there. I must not of hit submit! Well, anyway, I wrote that it is a Fall/October bean. Here's the description from Bill Best's site:
"FALL BEANS: At one time most people of the Southern Appalachians grew at least one variety of fall bean, sometimes called October beans. There are not nearly as many now as there were at one time, but they can still be found in many families. A few are bush beans with tough hulls and used only as shelly or dry beans. However, most are climbing beans and tender hulled. Most Appalachian heirloom beans are climbing beans and have strings, the exceptions being some fall beans."

I don't know about keeping the greasy since it isn't a greasy, and it would be easy to change the name now while not many people have the bean, maybe?
Tennessee Red Eyes might work?
Remy

Back again,

We don't even know for sure if it originated in Tennessee.
If it is a known variety, that's where the knowledgable southern bean experts would come in handy, maybe we can narrow it down. Last thing I would want to do is give it another name. That would be frowned on by the tomato world. Gotta start somewhere though. Let's name it, and go from there.

Keith.

When I discussed the bean with Bill Best last weekend, he did not know the bean. If anyone would know it, he would.(I also know from attending the swaps that other bean people are actually reading this forum and never post, but I know they would either chime in or send an email if they had something to add.) He did go out in the field and get a bean he received from Tennessee. As I said before it is VERY similar in all aspects of growth and looks. The bean he had has less red. We agreed that they probably are almost genetically identical like two siblings. So I do believe it is from Tennessee.
But we go with Red Eye Fall or Red Eye October. One of those would work?
Remy

I realized from scrolling back to see the other post about discussing the bean with Bill that I never did post the photo that I spoke of. Here's the photo of me confused by all the flashes going off as we were comparing the beans.
Remy

Not that I should have a vote but I kind of like "October Red Eyes" but I'm sure any name you guys decide on will be a goodun :).

Annette

Hi Remy !

I'm fairly new on the GW but I grow a lot of bean varieties. I'm a bean geek you might say. I have grown two varieties that have seed that looks just like your "Red Eye Greasy". I think greasy is a term often applied to bean names by people who live more in the south here in the U.S. It's probably a cultural thing. Not sure what it means. One of the beans I had collected and grown back in the 80's called "Leslie Tenderpod". I got it from someone who lived in Tennessee and claimed the bean had been grown in the mountain region of eastern Kentucky. My guess it's likely the same bean that I have. Beans often pick up the names of people who have grown them long after the original name has been forgotten for some reason or pick up a different name for other similar reasons. I also collected a bean from Central Tree and Crop Research of New Zealand late last year and grew it this year in '12 called "Holy" has a very similar looking seed. I would think it would take possibly someone who is really truely trained in accessing plant characteristics like a trained botanist to grow these out in the same season under the same conditons to compare the beans and see if they are the same varieties. There is another way but it high tech and maybe expensive. Tissue samples of the live plants of each variety can be taken and a DNA profile done on each variety to compare them to see if they have all the same genes. I write to a dry bean breeder at the University Of North Dakota once in a while and I know he does this when he breeds beans so see if his new cross has picked up any DNA from the male parent variety. I should write to him and ask him if the process is long, involved and expensive. I would love to see it done on the one you have and the two I have, and compare the DNA profile of all three. The photo you have of the pods on the live plants look very close to the "Leslie Tenderpod" and "Holy". I'm curious did the pods when they dried stay smooth or did they wrinkle a fair amount. Both of mine did. I have provided a link to a bean website I have and you can go and take a look at the seeds of other two that looks close to your "Red Eye Greasy". I'm sure there are beans that go under several or even many different names.

Russ

Here is a link that might be useful: A Bean Collectors Window

Hi Russ.

Both of those have the angel shaped red spots as does Red Eye Greasy.

Red Eye Greasy does not have the greasy look of other greasy beans. I have not seen any greasy beans on your site and you may not have actually seen what they look like. They lack the fine hairs of other beans and they are smooth and shiney almost as if they had been dipped in oil. All true greasy beans are pole beans and have strings and those I have grown remain tender until nearly dry. I list White Simpson Greasy in the SSE Yearbook and it is fine early true greasy bean.

Red Eye Greasy has no strings. It is also early for a greasy bean. Do you recall if either of your beans had strings?

I see that you have listed Leslie Tenderpod in the 2013 Yearbook. - Dick

Here is a link that might be useful: Greasy Bean

Russ, I looked through your listing of beans and found 20 or so that I have grown. Unfortunately, there are several in your list that are not adapted to my hot humid climate. I have Black Seeded Logan Giant and Black Seeded Turkey Craw which are black variants of the beans you have.

Just curious if you have grown Fortex, Musica, or Emerite? IMO, they should be grown just to sample what bean breeding work can - and can't - do. Also, Tobacco Worm is an excellent bean, on a par with Barnes Mountain and more widely adapted.

Of the greasy beans I've grown, Striped Hull Cutshort and Pink Tip are among the very best. Flavor is excellent, but typical of most greasy beans, they are not very productive because the beans are relatively small.

DarJones

Hi Everyone !

Dr Lloyd explained the greasy bean to me and I do not have any in my collection that are like that. I also spent this summer of 2012 just growing seed from all the seed samples that I acquired. In 2011 I started rebuilding a bean collection I had in the early 80's. I will have to test out "Leslie Tenderpod" and "Holy" and see if these beans are stringless. "Leslie Tenderpod" was last listed in the SSE yearbook previous to my 2013 listing in 1994 and was reported to have no stings. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I wish I could make the SSE database available to all of you. What a massive collection of information.

After Russ stopped offering Leslie Tenderpod, a grower in Minnesota and then SSE itself offered it for years until Russ was able to offer it again.

The Central Tree and Crop Research of New Zealand got Holy Bean from koanga.org.nz who have this to say about it: "We received these beans years ago from Anne handley of Omaka Wanganui... with a story to go with them. They have been in NZ a long time but came originally from France and this story came with the beans. 'According to a legend, a French pastor hid his church treasures underground during the first World War, fearing theft. In order to protect the treasures even better he planted beans on top of them. When the beans were ripe for picking and being shelled the pastor discovered pictures of a monstrance on the beans.'"

I did not know what a monstrance was but a search turned up photos of angel figures.

Dar, in my search for greasy beans that would do well here in the not very hot PNW summers I tried Pink Tip Greasy. It struggled along all summer and made some snaps but none made dry seed or even plumped up. I don't even waste time trying Limas.

On the other hand, Dolloff that struggled in your heat loves it here. - Dick

I hope I'm clogging this thread with stuff that is not of interest, but just one more before I go peal potatoes!

SSE has this entry for Holy Climbing. It is listed as a dry pole bean. They must not have tried it as a snap:

"2013: New Zealand heirloom. Round red and white seed. Tough pods are hard to shell out. Central Tree Crops Research Trust of New Zealand 2012"

Dick, you'll have to try Blue Greasy Grits I planted them late and they produced a good crop of beans, getting seed wasn't a problem either. The snaps were tasty and bonus although not very big I love them as shellies. I've been steaming them with other veggies.
I quickly learned to shell them inside a box, I know I'll be finding them in the oddest places in the months to come LOL.
Would these be classed as a cutshort? Annette

Annette, they look interesting. Some of them do look like they have square ends. SSE has Greasy Grits listed as both a snap and dry bean separately but seed is white.

Dick there's Greasy Grits and then there's BLUE Greasy Grits, you should have mail shortly.

Annette

And then there is what happens when you "peal" potatoes. My head is still ringing. :)

I like the flavor of Striped Hull Greasy Cutshort beans, but they are a real pain to prepare. Annette, I would not class Blue Greasy Grits as a cutshort. The beans have to be packed tighter to get the squared off ends look.

DarJones

I was hoping to try Red Eye Greasy this year but it looks like Remy at the Sample Seed Shop is already sold out. Does anybody know of anywhere else I could get this bean? Or does anybody have a few (like maybe 5 seeds) that they could spare that I could trade for?

Thanks,
Mike

Hi fusion_power !

I wouldn't mind getting a hold of some of your Black seeded Logan Giants and the black seeded Turkey Craw. Is there anything on my website you might like to trade for? If not I could send you some payment for your seeds ( you name your price) if you've got any you can spare at this time. Is black seeded Turkey Craw a natural variation that shows up in that variety from time to time? I did some bean swapping with Mark Christensen of the Central Tree Crops Research Trust of New Zealand and he had some black and white seeds that showed up in his Turkey Craw. He sent me some to grow. Will try them out in 2013 and see what comes out of them.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Russ

Here is a link that might be useful: A Bean Collector's Window

Hi Annette !

Well I finally got a hold of a Selma Star seed sample yesterday 22nd of December. Will be putting that in the mail for you tomorrow on monday.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year !
Russ

P.S Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone on the GW. Hope 2013 will give everyone great growing weather.

Russ thank you so much, I've been looking for "Selma Star" for several years now without any luck. I'll grow and share them with Shirley, between the two of us we should be able to get them back into circulation up here :).

Annette

A grower of Holy bean in Denmark wrote that the original seed from New Zealand had red spots that look like angels but that his look like a blob. It may depend on climate etc.
- Dick

The two people in the USA that I know of who have grown Holy bean never tried them as snaps. One of them listed it at SSE as a pole dry bean.

Russ found a German bean database that has Angel Bean listed as a 'French' or snap bean. They say that that Monstrance Bean is another name for it. That matches up with the New Zealand source use of the word "monstrance" so it is probably the same bean.

It is possible that Red Eye Greasy Fall, Holy bean, Angel Bean, Hazard Fall bean and Leslie Tenderpod are all the same variety.

Update: just noticed that they also use the label "French" for Borlotto beans too. So Holy may not be a snap. - Dick

Here is a link that might be useful: Angel Bean

This post was edited by drloyd on Tue, Feb 12, 13 at 10:20

Exactly a year after Remy's first post above I was able to try Red Eye Greasy Fall last night at a similar stage to the photo. Very fine bean. The vines are very aggressive and at least 10 feet tall making a dense mass at the top of the trellis.

Hazard Fall Bean has an identical appearance and is at the same stage of development but I have not tried them yet.

Leslie Tenderpod vines look identical but are a week or two behind the others with no maturing snaps yet. Blossoms on all three are white, turning yellow as they start to dry.

Holy Bean is much earlier than the others and the pods were somewhat chewy when I tried them on the 17th. Blossoms are pale purple. - Dick

The Red Eye Greasys are super nice and tasty. I picked mine are the full stage, and then again at the bursting full to shelly stage. Ate some, canned some. Will grow them again next year for sure.

Hi All,
There are probably some posts from late fall into winter that I should of responded to, but besides trying to take care of my business, I was caring for a sick relative who did die of cancer. So please pardon my absence from the conversation.
Dick and SweetQuietPlace,
Great to see updates! and good ones at that!
Remy

Remy, we had a mess of Hazard Fall last night, also at the semi-full stage. They have very fine flavor and still appear to be identical to Red Eye Greasy Fall. They did tend to fall apart more than Red Eye Greasy Fall but they were steamed longer.

In any case, they are two fine snaps. - Dick

This summer I grew four varieties that had similar looking angel pattern seeds, wondering if they might all be the same bean.

Holy bean turned out to be different from the other three. It matured weeks earlier and the pods tended to get fibrous. This has been used by a shelly or dry bean by others and that may be its best use.

Red Eye Greasy, Hazard Fall and Leslie Tenderpod all had the same aggressive growth habit, forming a new branch from the base of each leaf cluster. They all formed very dense masses of vines at the top of their trellises. They all had similar white blossoms that turned yellow as they matured. They all did everything at the same time except for Leslie Tenderpod that got a bit more shade and was a few days behind. The snaps looked identical and were string free and tender as they filled with maturing seeds. They all have similar fine flavor and the maturing pods all tended to unzip as they were steamed. And finally, the pods of all three tend to get a bit chewy as they turn yellow.

For those who like full beans, Aunt Jean's followed by any of these three (or Tennessee Cutshort) followed by something like Tobacco Worm or one of the greasy beans would work great, at least here in the PNW. - Dick

The bean season here in the PNW is winding down but it is still possible to collect a mess of beans for the evening meal.

Red Eye Greasy, Hazard Fall and Leslie Tenderpod still appear to be the same bean. At this point I am using them all the way to mostly dry and they are still making good full beans. These beans have gone though several frosts down to 26F and even some that were never covered are still usable. They have helped convert DW into a full bean fan. Dick

They didn't seem to grow as well for me as some of the other Greasy beans i tried in a previous season.

Frank Barnett recently mentioned that Hazard Fall (aka Red Eye Fall and Leslie Tenderpod) is very common in eastern Kentucky and he has lost count of all the names has heard it called. He thought Coal Miner Survival bean was the most interesting of them. Dick

Frank says that Red Baby Eye Fall bean is another name for them.

Frank Barnett just found a couple plastic bags of this type of bean in his freezer labeled Birds Eye Bean and Red Eyed Babys.

I just happened upon another name for this bean, which matches the story behind 'Holy'. When browsing a French seed site, I saw the little angels right away and remembered this thread.

'Le Haricot du St Sacrement' or 'Haricot Miraculeux' which I think translates to something like the Holy Sacrament Bean, Sacred Bean or Miracle Bean. There is no growth/use description, but only photos of the dry seed, which I would presume chimes with the tough pod. They also make a point that it is different from the variety called Haricot St-Esprit (ÃÂ Oeil Rouge), which would be the Soldier Bean in America...round coco shape vs kidney shape.

Google Translate doesn't work on the page, but there's a little story that I think I've got the gist of. It's similar to the one you found from The Central Tree and Crop Research of New Zealand. Here's my translation:

During the French Revolution, in a village of Alsace, a priest was worried because a Republican mob was coming to town. He asked one of his parishers where he should hide the holy sacrament, and the parisher replied that he had a garden at his house and they could hide it in amongst the pole beans. It was not found and survived (I guess the mob attack), and then to their surprise the beans that ripened that fall, which were normally white, now had the red angel mark. The priest saw this as a divine sign of God to honour their courage. He proclaimed that if the sacrament had been found they would have been shot and had their homes burnt. So it was considered a miracle and the bean was shared widely.

Here is a link that might be useful: Le Haricot du St Sacrement

I grew Holy bean last summer along with Hazard Fall/Red Eye Fall/Leslie Tenderpod. It was not the same as the other three. It was earlier and the pods were more fibrous. It is more of a shelly or dry bean.

Well I finally got around to growing this one I've had the seed since 2012. I was out of commission for awhile and that put a real damper on things. Maybe because of the summer we had the Red Eye Fall seed I got from Keith (I believe that's what we're calling them now) grew well over 8', many of the pods when shelled the beans were crowded like cutshorts, anyone else have this happen? When shelling the beans for seed I found a pod where the beans were a solid color, like the color around the hilum before completely dry, a rather eye catching color. Since there was only one pod with beans this color I'm thinking maybe a mutation or is it just like in some varieties you get a reversal colors on the seed coat. I guess I'll have to grow these again next year to find out. Here's a picture, what do you think?

Annette

Annette I did not see any flat ends or square corners on any of the Red Eye Fall or Hazard Fall or Leslie Tenderpod seeds. No reversed colors either. This year I grew Lazy Wife Red Fall which is a similar bean with seeds that are bright red when fresh drying to dark red. The red is darker than your sport. Dick

Dick there were quite a few seeds with flat ends, non really squared off tho. I'll grow these reddish ones out next year and see what happens. It could be just the result from the crazy summer we've just had and they'll revert back to looking like the original seed I planted. I grew Logan Giant for the first time and I'm pretty sure they had crossed sometime previous to when I received them, half the seed I collected was jet black.

Annette

I know this is an old string, I stumbled on it while trying to find a source for Monstrance Beans in the US, and you seem to have the closest thing I have been able to find. can anyone of you help me? I'd like to find some.

thank you

dean

In the fall there will be more. Sample Seed Shop Bean Page

Remy, I went you look at the Sample Seed Shop. Very nice! Somehow I'd missed this before now.

George