One option is to plumb old issues of the SSE yearbook to see who first offered it there and hope that person is available and able to shed light on it. It's my guess anyway that's where Southern Exposure first got their seed.

Not in this case, Gene. Apparently, Jeff McCormack first got it as part of a seed trade, right there in Virginia. But he doesn't know any more than what is in the SESE catalog.

My Yearbooks go back to 1999, and it isn't listed there. SESE says they introduced it in 1984, which would put it back in the early days of the seed-saving movement.

Not to take anything away from Kent and Dianne Whealy, but SSE was not the only source of heirlooms, even back then. And neither the Yearbooks nor the SSE seed collection represent more than a fraction of the old-time seed that's still out there.

AHSC (Appalachian Heirloom Seed Conservancy), for instance, is only in it's third year. But almost none of our accessions, and few of those in our members' collections, are represented by SSE.

Brook, I'm new to both organizations, but that's encouraging news regarding AHSC's collections.

I hope George will forgive me for quoting from a recent off-forum e-mail, but he wrote that he remembered the RB bean being offered in SSE yearbook ever since he'd become a member 20 years ago. Of course that's probably just an off-the-cuff remark and shouldn't be taken too literally, but still it might be worthwhile to look back in the yearbooks from the 1980s. It may turn out to be a dead end, but who knows? Carolyn, over on the tomatoe forum, might be able to help with access to older yearbooks.

I've no doubt that Ruth Bible appeared sometime in the Yearbooks, George. But it was a reverse direction. That is, it became listed by a grower who got it from SESE, rather than the opposite. If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any more information than I already have.

As you peruse the Yearbook, note how many listings have a "cv" as the original source. That stands for commercial variety, and there are a lot more of them listed than you might think. The code leters after the cv, btw, are cross-referenced to The Garden Seed Inventory.

But you're right: I certainly can't lose anything by checking earlier Yearbooks, and might just learn a piece of the puzzle.

>he wrote that he remembered the RB bean being offered in SSE yearbook ever since he'd become a member 20 years ago. Interestingly, Ruth Bible is listed in the 2006 Yearbook, but not in any of them I have before that, going back to 1999. One of the growers (there are 2), MD KO S, says he got it from IN FU A in 1995. So it was listed in the mid-90s, then disappeared. IN FU A is no longer a listed member, nor was (s)he in '99.

The fifth edition of Garden Seed Inventory lists two commercial sources in 1998, one of which is no longer in business. I should really get the 6th edition; only thing that's stopped me is pernicious laziness.

It could be educational to, as you suggest, check earlier Yearbooks to see when it first appears, what the source was, and if there is any additional info. Maybe I'll ask Carolyn Male to do that for me, as she has a complete collection.

I had tried to get seed from SESE for seveal years, around the turn of the century, but they had, apprently, lost their grower until Merlyn Niedens took it on for them. I had gotten my seed directly from Merlyn.

>but that's encouraging news regarding AHSC's collectionsThere are several factors at work. Many (possibly most) AHSC members are direct collectors of family heirlooms. In the mountain south, until fairly recently, every hollow was a separate country, and we still find varities grown in one valley that are unknown in the next.

So, the first factor is that many of these collections were not built by third-hand trading with others or by buying seeds. They were built by direct collection, or, at most, one-step removed (i.e., I collect it directly, and share it with you).

You'll note that the free seed you got with your membership (your membership package was mailed Tuesday, so you should have it by now) is not listed in the Yearbook. It's one of those family heirlooms; in your case from western Tennessee.

Second, many of our members are either unaware of SSE's existence, or know about it but for various reasons do not choose to become listed members. For instance, I've been an unlisted member for seven or eight years, but will never become a listed member, nor will SSE ever recieve any of the seeds in my collection for its own seed bank.

Something else to consider is that the same or similar varieties are often grown by different families, but have different names. As an example, AHSC has two new bean accessions this year both of which are the spitting image of Ruth Bible. One of them is a Kentucky heirloom, the other comes from Tennessee. One of our members is going to do a comparative grow-out this coming season, to see how similar they actually are in growth habits and taste.

So it's quite possible that Ruth Bible has been in the SSE Yearbooks all along, but under a different name.

Unfortunatley, until Dna mapping becomes somewhat more affordible, there's no real way of telling.

"Unfortunatley, until Dna mapping becomes somewhat more affordible, there's no real way of telling."

That day may sneaking up on us quickly. I've been following a company called Illumina for several years for investment purposes. They make equipment for large scale automated gene mapping. Their business started expanding dramatically this year.

The equipment currently is being purchased for specific large research projects, but will be commonplace in biological labs in a very few years I expect. Then universities will be mapping everything under the sun. AHSC should keep an eye on these developments and be prepared to interest a university in their region in working on their collections when the time is ripe.

Jim

Thanks for the tip, Jim. Hopefully your prediction will come to pass soon.

Meanwhile, at $250/pop, AHSC won't be doing any mapping real soon.

Here's what's listed in the Seed Savers Exchange yearbooks, from 1984 through 1988. I don't have the other books at hand and am out of time today. Sorry I can't get formating here like in my word processor . Great discussion!

George

1984 SSE listings of Ruth Bible Pole Bean:
Benny Michitti of Carrollton, VA: listed as limited quantity, members only.

Ruth Bible Snap Pole Bean 70 days, brown seed, tender hull with strings, climbs to over 12Â, Kentucky heirloom strain grown by the Boys (this is how it was spelled in the Yearbook) family, over 150 years old, seed from WV, samples to 4 members only.

Jeff McCormick, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange:

Ruth Bible Snap Pole Bean: 48 days, prolific producer of edible podded beans with slight strings, vine has grown to 18Â, seed is uniformly tan/brown, similar in shape to black beans but larger, traced back to at least 1832, appears to be rare, 82/VA/MI/B (Benny Michitti)

1985 SSE listings of Ruth Bible Pole Bean:
Benny Michitti of Carrollton, VA: listed as limited quantity, members only.
Everything the same in his listing except he changed maturity date to 65 days.

Jeff McCormick, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange:
Ruth Bible  52-070 days, Buoys family heirloom, Kentucky, 1832, tender 3.5"
pods, slight strings, brownish-tan seeds, samples to two mid-Atlantic SSE
members who will reoffer, O.S. VA MI B

Ruth L. Putnam, Syria VA
Has: Ruth Bible - 100 days, heirloom bean traced back to Kentucky to at least 1832, pods 3.5", best picked when small, high climbers, 84/VA MC J

1986 SSE listings of Ruth Bible Pole Bean: Three listings.
Eve Emshwiller, Rockland ME Â who received her seed from Ruth Putnam in

1985. No new info given. Listed as "limited quantity"

Willard W. Osborn, Fremont, MO "HAS Â 070 days, med. brown seed, tender
hull with strings, climbs to 12Â, been in Bomily (sic) over 150 years, O.S. 84/VA
MI B

Jeff McCormick lists it the same as in 1985

HereÂs an interesting listing from 1986
Charles E. Estep Sr. Riverside, CA "Ruth Bible Mixture" "HAS Â 070 days, tan & brown seeds, some long some round, tender with strings, over 12Â, Kentucky heirloom from Boys Family, over 150 years old, West Virginia, 84 VA MI B

1987 SSE listings of Ruth Bible Pole Bean:
Eve Emshwiller, Rockland ME lists it as limited quantity with no new info.

No one else lists it.

Charles E. Estep Sr. Riverside, CA lists "Ruth Bible Mixture" as "HAS" No
new info in his listing either.

1988 SSE Listings of Ruth Bible Pole Bean:

Mark A. Futterman, Berkley, CA lists "L.Q Â 8Â+ vine, very vigorous multi-
twiner, pure white flower, 5 x 6" flattish greed pod, 7 brown-tan seeds/pod, pre-
1832 heirloom soup bean, CV Peace Seeds;

Eve Emshwiller, Rockland ME lists it again as "HAS" but with no new info.

Ora Vanderpool, Cassville MO lists it as "L.Q." nothing else.

Shannon Stoney in Cookeville, TN lists it as "L.Q." with no other information.

* Ruth Bible Mixture 1988 listing
Mark A. Futterman, Berkley, CA lists "L.Q."  074 days  8Â+ vine, white
flower, 5 x 6" flat green pod, tender vigorous & prolific, strings, multi-twiner,
tan-brown seed, some long & some round, heirloom from Boys family of WV,
87 CA ES C

Thanks for doing that search, George.

I find it interesting that in 85 Jeff McCormick was only offering it to two growers who would reoffer it. But in 84 he introduced it commercially through SESE.

Something else curious. In 84 Jeff McCormick indicates he got it from Benny Michitti in 82. Yet Benny keeps it as an LQ listing for as long as he offers it in the catalog. Wonder what the story was there?

I'm guessing, too, from the descriptions that the Charles Estep line was crossed. All of my Ruth Bible are uniformly shaped. Mark Futterman seems to have grown two lines that year (88), one from Peace Seeds IDed as being Ruth Bible, the other the Estep line, called Ruth Bible Mixture---which, to me, is a de facto admission that the seed was crossed.

Nobody, through the years, seems to have wondered who Ruth Bible was.

I bet you're right about Ruth Bible Mixture. Wish Mark Futterman was still alive. He not only grew these two Ruth Bible beans, but also, I sent him seed to every bean I had in my collection in 1987. Mike Dunton, of Victory Seeds is reassembling Mark's collection. Below is a link to what he has. I don't know how up to date it is. I wish I knew what "RG" and "F" stand for, in the chart.

George

I dropped Mike an e-mail to ask him about "RG" and "F." Will post the info if I get a reply.

Gardenlad, maybe you can get a grant to map the collection. Grants have been given for far less noble endeavors.

How sad to hear that Mark passed away! I am going to contact Mike as I still maintain the seeds I sent Mark in '96 and '98.
Rose-Marie ( formerly known as AUSL LA R )

Rose-Marie, I'm sure Mike would greatly appreciate it. I sent him everything I still have, from what I originally sent to Mark. From what Mike has told me, and what I've read on his website, I'm very pleased with the work he's doing.

Gardenlad, it just occurred to me that you might want to ask Mike about Hay's Little Greasy, and see if he has relocated it as of yet. I originally sent Mark that seed in '87. It was sent to me that year by a woman who was a member of the National Gardening Assoc. I wish I had kept better records.As I recall this lady was from KY or WV. I do know I sent all info to Mark Futterman, as I knew that I had no chance of growing it out. We were in language school and headed to Mexico in '88.

This woman sent me the seed in a trade, mentioning that it was a half runner greasy. The seed looked just like Large White Greasy. Yet she claimed that its pods were small (hence "Little" in the name.) Mark grew it out and commented to me that it wasnt a half runner (much to his disappointment). Instead it had vigorous climbing vines. In 99 he tried to convince me to accept a sample of this seed, but I felt that my plate was too full, and I declined. Now I wish I had found a way to grow it out.

George

Maybe I should get a note off to Mike. Been a while since he and I worked together. Last time was on a project in search of the original Golden Queen tomato.

I know there is a Little White Greasy that's fairly common. Also a Little White Greasy Cutshort. Have no idea, though, whether they're related to the Hays or not.

FWIW, there are incredible number of varieties identified as half-runners which turn out to have rampant vines. I wish I know why that was, but I don't. It's like the Striped Bunch bean in my collection, which is a great variety but which certainly is not a bunch (bush) bean.

"FWIW, there are incredible number of varieties identified as half-runners which turn out to have rampant vines. I wish I know why that was, but I don't"

I wonder if any of these cases could have to do with conditions. I know that the first year I grew Tennessee Cutshort it only reached a height of about 6', produced a bumper crop for three weeks and then abruptly dried down completely. So, for a while I reported that this bean had a rather reserved pole habit. But later, with more growing experience, I had to revise that description. Every year except that first one it's had a pretty rampant vine. Makes me think that this has something to do with growing conditions.

George

No doubt that's true, George.

Striped Bunch behaves similarly. It, too, is supposedly a half-runner. First year I got vines only 3-5 feet. Second year, 5-7 feet. Although I wouldn't describe them as rampant, they now put out a substantial vine; certainly covering my 8-foot trellises.

Rodger mentioned that he was going to do a presentation on beans he grew out this year for comparison. Included in this grow out were Ruth Bible, Tennessee Cutshort and Childers Cutshort, and probably others. I'd love to hear of his conclusions. Are you out there Rodger?

A couple of Ruth Bible vines survived our 1 1/2 months of 100 plus degree days and no rain. They produced very nicely right up until yesterday. We had 21 degrees last night, which ended warm weather crop harvests for this year.

Though I've mentioned that Ruth Bible had somewhat tougher pods than the other two varieties I trialed (Tennessee Cutshort and Childers Cutshort) when drying down, this might only be the case under extreme heat conditions. I am going to grow Ruth Bible again. It turned out to be a truly excellent bean. Too bad so few grow it!

George
Tahlequah, OK