for poison ivy, try adding a bit of dish soap to the mix. It helps it get through the coating on the leaves. Years ago I worked for DNR and they used "cross bow" to kill P I but, don't know if that is still available.
I used roundup on honeysuckle and it took weeks to see any effect.
Good luck

I guess you've not read any of my poison ivy posts [LOL].
I'm aware of the soap trick. It etches the oil on the leaves, so use a degreasing soap like Dawn.

However, it's all moot if the Round-Up isn't working at all.
I prefer Round-Up for environmental reasons. If I must use a chemical -- and on poison ivy I must -- I want something that dissapates.

I'm in the maintenance stage of poison ivy control this year, I think. Thank God. It's taken 3 years to get 3 acres out from under ivy so thick that fence posts looked like weeping trees. I won't let it get a handle on me again!

Round-Up should work within days. This tells me you had the same trouble with it on your honeysuckle.

Thanks for the thought, but I'm still hoping to find out why the Round-Up isn't working.

Christine

"...things died beautifully..."

That was a fun phrase.

Do you buy the $45 a bottle straight undiluted roundup? I bought that to do away with the remains of a wisteria hedge I destroyed this year. Poured a cup of it into a bowl, added red food coloring and used a little sponge edging brush to paint stumps of wisteria (100s of them). The color was so that I could see what I had done. It worked!!! Wisteria is a tough beast so I've gone back to redo a dozen or so. Anyway I think cutting ensures a better uptake of the poison, and full strength saves you from doing 3 rounds of treatments with the really invasive stuff. Do wear gloves.

Christine, I am going through something similar right now. What I noticed is that temperature definitely has an effect on how well it works. Although the bottle claims that it is effective in temps above 60, IME, Roundup works better when the temps are in the 70s and 80s. Our extended cool weather may have had an impact.

FWIW, things I sprayed in the first pass are dying, but it's been almost two weeks. Whatever got sprayed on Friday look the same as these at this point, only two days later.

Suja

I've not had a problem with poison ivy, but the roundup always seems to take at least a week in any case.
There are some plants impervious to Roundup--mosses, and also "Tree of Heaven" which is an incredible annoyance in my area. So don't waste the roundup on those.
Others that are not impervious but need multiple treatments and/or cut & saturate with full strength: multiflora rose, japanese honeysuckle, dock.

Christine,
When RU didn't work for me (yes, I think there is something to weedy vines becoming immune), I got a product called Vine-X. Highly effective and only a few places needed a second application. Once applied, the application is carried throughout the plant's system and kills it down to the roots. Not cheap, but desparate situations call for quick results. The only place that carried it then was Merrifield GC, but it looks like it is more widely available. Works great on VA Creeper, and poison ivy is well in my past - just be sure to follow the directions EXACTLY. Again, I would only recommend this product when RU doesn't work and only in very specific situations. Good luck, Suz.

Here is a link that might be useful: VINE-X

As I understand it, RU works by literally growing the plant to death. That's why it doesn't look like anything is happening for a couple of weeks. Different plants require different strengths and some require repeated applications.

As with all chemicals, please, PLEASE, read and follow the label directions. And if the label doesn't answer your questions, there should be a toll-free phone number to contact the company for information. RU is one of the safest herbicides around but it is still a very strong chemical and it's in everybody's best interest to use the smallest amount necessary to do the job.

Vine-X is triclopyr, which is Garlon (more or less), and also Crossbow (if you add 2,4-D).

Round-up works when plants take it up in their vascular system and it blocks synthesis of an enzyme the plant needs for growth. So the plants need to be growing properly for it to work. If I were you, Christine, I would wait a bit before reapplying to make sure that the current application didn't work.

(Well, actually, if I were you, Christine, I wouldn't use it at all. But I'm not you :-)!)

I think the low temperatures have had a major effect on Round Up working. Hit everything now while we are actually going to have a couple of days of seasonable temperatures. Round Up only works while plants are actively growing and I think the low temperatures just held everything up.

Christine,

Here's what works best on PI ... you're already close in using a surfactant/sticker (ie the dawn dish soap) in the mix. The next thing is to get the PI jumpstarted by using some liquid fertilizer to get it growing. Any water soluble plant food will work. REALLY warm weather also helps! 3 days or so after the fert application go ahead an use roundup. I don't like the RTU, my preference is the concentrate that I can mix myself. As to when you will see results .... 10-14 days is typical with roundup. If you want top kill quickly you'll need to add something with Dicamba (its a salt and kills top growth quickly). For my really stubborn areas I used a combo of RU, Brush-b-gone (triclopyr) and Weed-B-Gone (2-4-D)) The newer (1999-on Weed-B-gone) contains Dicamba. I have some of the older formulation w/o dicamba that when mixed with the triclopy makes a product called Turflon II (only available to licensced LCO's/applicators). Its perfect in the right concentration as general spot weed killer in the lawn for just about all broad-leaf weeds.

Bob

For tough to kill plants I use brush-b-gone one week and round up the next. Or vice versa. It almost always works. I've found that for some plants (Poison Ivy, Multiflora rose) I have to apply at double the labelled rate. Both work much better when it's warm and sunny.

I have to admit that although I know this isn't the case, I'm feeling rather patronized.

First, I mentioned I'm in the maintenance stage, so thank you all for the heavy-duty instructions I already know, but it's spot treatments.

Second, I know how to read directions (and play well with others) and don't mess around with chemicals. And speaking of chemicals, I mentioned I wanted something that would dissapate, which is Round-Up. I do try to be selective when I'm using something that isn't organic. So far, this remains my only inorganic choice, and the manufacturer would argue that it is.

Third (thanks, Cynthia) I'm not dealing anymore with the woody, thick vines of poison ivy, I'm dealing with foliage. Cynthia, think Brush-b-gone for woody things like wisteria, bamboo, and fox grape after the foliage is killed with Round-Up. It's much easier and you can paint it on as you did so you don't wrecklessly smear the enviornment. BBG works through the woody stems, where RU works through foliage.

Fourth, I did call the manufacturer and the temps were supposed to have been fine. Plus, (which none of you have thought to remind me) you must have at least an hour's sunlight for it to absorb or photosyntha-whatever. And I did.

Fifth, Round-Up is advertised to and has always worked within 24 to 36 hours for me. This coupla weeks stuff is hoo-ha.

Sixth, I find it interesting that I (3-year gardener), LynnT (10 year gardener) and my friend (newbie) are having the same issues. 2/3s of us know how to use Round-Up. I, myself having almost eradicated the vines that were covering my house and complete fencelines.

Seventh, any concentration should work on grass and dandelions.

Well, as I mentioned, this week is supposed to be steadily in the 70s. I'll probably make another pass with a heavier concentrate, despite the instructions. (Oh, yes Cynthia. I buy the undiluted stuff. Only 29.99 at Sam's.)

I apprecaite the instructions, but I already know all this stuff. What I want to know is why the Round-up still isn't killing anything. And guess what? The manufacturer doesn't know, either, because it's not supposed to dissapate over the season.

So there you have it. Oh - and the really best way to keep somewhat-controlled poison ivy in check? Pull it up by the roots. Make certain you wear your bio-hazard space suit.

Christine

As I mentioned before, my experience this year, like yours, is that Round Up has not worked as fast or as well as usual. I know the manufacturer says over 60 degrees. But I think this year's wild temperature swings, between night and day let alone between one day and the next day, have had an effect on plants' growing patterns. Round Up requires an actively growing plant to work (as I'm sure you know. I'm not patronizing, I'm trying to explain how I got my exercise jumping to conclusions.) Without any scientific evidence, that's what I connected and decided to wait on anymore Round Up applications until it seemed that temperatures were going to stay warmer even at night for a few days.

I sprayed RU again this morning. I'm getting to really hate honeysuckle and if I had not already put in a lot of plants.... I'd rent a herd of hungry goats. Hope the RU does better this time and I don't much care why or why not. I appreciate Christine's thorough attention to details but I just want the stuff to Die Dead and gone. Though, I realise it will always be a battle as the birds reseed the stuff.
Christine, my new motto is "nothing is as easy as it looks".

Chrstine,

I'll stand by my recommendation that you need to encourage growth through fert application BEFORE using RU. The plant must be making sugars. Plants treated with glyphosate translocate the systemic herbicide to their roots, shoot regions and fruit, where it interferes with the plantÂs ability to form amino acids necessary for protein synthesis. Treated plants generally die in two to three days. BUT ... the plant must be actively producing these sugars ( ie GROWING) to get this optimum kill rate ... using the RU after the fertilizer the RU will kill the plant quickly.

>> And speaking of chemicals, I mentioned I wanted something that would dissapate, which is Round-Up. Actually this is VERY hotly contested ... glyphosate (active ingredient in RU) has a half-life of 45+ days and has been found in ground water for up to 60+ days. The active ingredient in BBG is triclopyr that has a similar half life in the ground (where is remains active) and a half-life in water of 24hours! It also dissipates rapidly in warm weather and direct sunlight. 2-4-D the active ingredient in WBG is not persistent in soil. At its highest application rate it persists for 30 days in soil. 2,4-D is rapidly degraded in soil, especially by soil icroorganisms. It degrades more rapidly under warm, moist conditions. Some forms of 2,4-D will evaporate from the soil. 2,4-D will degrade to half of its original concentration in several days. So you see they are not so different are they? The inert ingredients (ie trade secrets) that make-up the other 98% of these OTS products are also suspect.

Back to glyphosate ... because plants absorb glyphosate it cannot be completely removed by washing,peeling or even through baking/heat. It has been shown to persist in food products for up to 2 years! There are lots of neat engineered crops (soybeans, corn, and even grasses (for golf courses) that are "resistant" to RU allowing weed control via large scale application to these crops. Remember RU is typically non-selective (ie kills EVERYTHING) These resistant crops have started to show up in other areas ... do you live near any soybean fields? Commercial farms? While I doubt that is your current problem.

BTW, you are correct in that proper application of ANY chemical/pesticide is important. Most homeowners typically err on the side that if a little is good more is better and therefore the unintended consequences much greater.

>> Oh - and the really best way to keep somewhat-controlled poison ivy in check? Pull it up by the roots. Almost impossible and futile at best! I would think a bio-engineered animal that would dig and eat the stuff might be our best bet... with additional engineering it could hunt down and eliminate kudzu and wild honeysuckle as well.

Good luck!

Bob

I always get the concentrated stuff and then follow the directions for mixing it in a gallon sprayer. This past Saturday I blitzed some chickweed and other unwanteds. My experience is that it takes a few days to start seeing the effects.

Bob, (Diveguy) I don't doubt you about the temperature.
I'm going to give it another go this week.

Kimka, if you read, I said "Although I know it's not the case, I'm feeling patronized." Don't take it personally. It wasn't necessarily about you. However, for someone to feel it necessary to remind me to "As with all chemicals, please, PLEASE, read and follow the label directions" and "...just be sure to follow the directions EXACTLY" has me asking if anyone would blame me. Yes, at 46 years old and 3 successful years of using Round-Up, let alone any chemical in my life, I thought I'd give taking a big sip of straight concentrate, pursing my lips and spraying it out through my teeth. Perhaps it'd be more effective. Then thought I'd start smoking, using IV drugs, having wild, rampant, unprotected sex with strangers, and freefalling without a parachute.

Dawn, I, too, "...always get the concentrated stuff then follow the directions..." What else does someone do with Round-Up? In my experience it takes usually 24 hours, not 2-3 weeks. And I always start early because that's when the PI tries to sneak in.

So although Bob is metaphorically stomping his foot in insistance that it's temperature, that's not been my experience in the past. However, again, I'm going to give it another try this week and (call it living dangerously) I'm going to .... [insert Jaws music here] add an extra measure of Round-Up to my 4-gallon, pull-behind sprayer.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks,
Christine

Wow, Christine. It sounds like this weekend's swap is going to be one happing place! Thanks for the info Bob.

- Brent

Christine,

>> So although Bob is metaphorically stomping his foot in insistance that it's temperature, that's not been my experience in the past. Ok here's my last word .... the temperature is usually an indicator or stimulant of growth. Certaintly in spring it definetly gets things in motion. You can always insure a plant is producing sugars and actively growing with an applcation of fertilizer before using the RU. It will make even the low-dose of the RTU formula work effectively. I suspect that your previous attempts have caught the plants actively growing, hence your success. You can maximize your success by fertilizing first!

I first started using RU (in powder form in 1973) when I was working grounds at Seizure World. Luckily we left most of the dirty work (edging, RU application etc) for the high-school kids that were on the work-release program from summer school. They showed-up after the school around noon and got all the nasty work in the afternoon. We were able to get all the mowing work done in the cooler morning temps and had some time to "sit under a tree and relax" in the heat of the afternoon.

Sorta dates me doesn't it!

Bob

I would think a bio-engineered animal that would dig and eat the stuff might be our best bet...

Goats.

Christine, I'm sorry you feel patronized! The thing is, as I have learned to my astonishment in the last few months, there are a lot of people who lurk on GardenWeb, unbeknownst to us posting types, because they never say a word. So the "always follow label directions!!!" stuff is for their benefit. I certainly don't think you, Christine, aka "Just Put It In My Car," would do anything dumb with Round-up -- but there are, unfortunately, a lot of people who smoke, drink too much, and do IV drugs...

Frankly, Alfie, if I were lurking I'd still feel somewhat patronized. This might not be a PC thing to say, but if they're that idiotic or careless to misuse chemicals, or not bother to read the label? Dare I say it? Aren't some of us already thinking it? Here goes: They deserve what they get.

But then, as with your reminder about lurkers in the first place? Some people enjoy a keen sense of the obvious.

As far as feeling patronized, I said I know it isn't the case. If we were in person, however, I'd be saying, "I know, I know" rather impatiently. Or, the speaker would probably be saying, "You probably already know xxxxx." Nonetheless, there you have it.

I wish goats didn't eat regular plants, too. I'd love to have a goat. Today a ground hog walked up from the road, down my fence line into the back field. He didn't eat anything, though...

Christine

So Round Up's not too effective on Tree of Heaven*? NOW you tell me!!

**Is that the tree with the funky soap-like smell? Tree of Heaven--hmmph, I have a much lower opinion of it!!

Any lurkers who feel patronized are free to come out of lurkerdom to say so :-).

More seriously, no, I, personally, me, Alfie, don't think people who do stupid things deserve the bad consequences that might ensue. (Though they shouldn't think the bad consequences are surprising, either.) I have done enough stupid things -- some of which I knew at the time were stupid, and some of which I only realized afterwards (upon the occurrence of bad consequences) were stupid -- to build up my tolerance for other people's stupidity a bit :-).

Dawn, if you only have a few Trees of Heaven to deal with, you can try Round-up, but in my experience, cutting them down, desuckering the stumps (and desuckering them, and desuckering them), and pulling up the roots as soon as the roots sucker is far more effective. Plus cheaper than triclopyr :-).

(Yikes, three :-)s in one post! Sorry!)

Bob - thought you'd be interested to know that I Round-ed up Tuesday. Wednesday evening, grass had died where I dribbled. I'll be out checking today to see if some of the other stuff is taking a morte. I'm hoping it'll effect crab grass, which it has yet to do. Crab grass is already enthusiastically growing.

Alfie. Well, there you have it. You're just a much better person than I. I doubt you're the only one who has done stupid things, but I must admit, not reading labels on chemicals is not one of my errors. There's dumb, there's ignorant, there's lazy and there's just plain stupid.

I have Mulbury trees to deal with, Dawn. The same situation. They're evil and sucker everywhere. I just Rounded-up a bunch of suckers of ground-level stumps. (Tiny stumps.) They're probably going to try to come back forEVER, but I am diligent. [sigh] I'm going to probably end up painting them with BBG a la Cynthia.

Today? dig for the swap. YEAH!!!!

Oh I have mulberry trees as well. Hate them, hate them, hate them! I've noticed that some of the leaves on the tree of H3ll are withering. Hmmm. Maybe I'll give it another spritzing.

If my post came across as patronizing to the original poster or to any lurkers, I apologize. I don't know you so I can't judge whether you are a careless weekend gardener or a professional. My comment about following label instructions was intended for the larger audience of GW in general and the OP only if you didn't know.

Your comment that you were going to spray again "using a heavier concentration that that which is instructed on the bottle" was what caused me concern. Nothing is entirely safe and when someone advocates the use of a chemical in increased concentrations they may be endangering more than just themselves. The increased dose of glyphosate may not cause any harm to the user or the environment or anybody else. But others with less knowledge or experience may feel that if someone used an increased concentration of this product to clear up a particularly difficult problem, then it's ok to increase the concentration of one of the more dangerous pesticides to combat some problem they are having and the results may be disastrous to the user, the environment, AND to the innocent neighbors!

This is not a case of just the user "getting what he deserves." I've seen the damage done by herbicides when the directions or precautions on the label were not followed. It's not a pretty sight when the neighborÂs yard loses grass and shrubs and flower beds, and itÂs potentially a very expensive mistake by the user. My post was intended to bring attention to the fact that the label information is important and should be followed. If the product doesn't work as expected, maybe the user's expectations are too high or they are not using the proper chemical or technique and should research the problem more thoroughly.

And to answer the original question, no, I haven't seen anything to indicate that poison ivy has become immune to RU - yet! But anything's possible! Glyphosate resistant plants are being discovered fairly regularly. An article published by Perdue says, "It is important to understand that these resistant biotypes are out there and that resistance can develop with continuous use of herbicides with the same mode of action (how a herbicide controls a weed)." (http://www.ppdl.purdue.edu/ppdl/weeklypics/7-14-03.html) So if your PI or any other plant has developed resistance or is a naturally resistant strain, IÂm sure the agricultural community and pesticide manufacturers will be interested in hearing about it.

All right, Christine, you don't think I'm going to let you get away with comments like that about me, do you? "A better person," indeed! Ha! Just for that, I'm going to make you take home any of my Oma's cheesecake that's left over, whether you want to or not. That'll show you!

:-),
Alfie

LEFTOVER Cheesecake? Alfie, you haven't been helping Larry out with his little problem, have you?

Suja