We (my gardening partner in crime and I) have been reading with great interest the experiences you've all been sharing on this thread and decided to add a few of our own.

Douglas fir (Pacific coast variety) has been growing for 12 years from a seedling transplant. It is now about 15 feet tall and is taking off.

Magnolis verbanica (thanks Mike!) survived it's first winter with us last year with no dieback and seems to be settling in rapidly.

Magnolia "Elizabeth" is now about 7 feet tall after 3 years with no dieback and has bloomed well with huge, glowing pale yellow flowers for the past 2 years. This one really settled in quickly.

Magnolia "Wada's Memory" is a slower grower, and is about 4 feet tall from a plant added to the gardens 6 years ago. It has bloomed the last 3 years. The flowers are very beautiful but tend to be shredded by wind and rain.

Magnolia "Betty", from the Eight Little Girls series, was added 5 years ago as a small mail order plant. Poor planning at planting time resulted in our moving the plant 3 years ago to a better location, and is about 5 feet tall--no blooms yet.

Magnolia "Randy", also from the Little Girl series, has incredible purple and pink flowers fully 6 inches across, and is 7 feet tall after 4 years. It blooms later than the other magnolias we have.

Magnolia "Galaxy" suffered dieback after we had to move our 5 foot tree after 3 years but has had strong regrowth to 3 feet plus. We can't wait to see it flower.

Magnolia "Leonard Messell", purchased about 10 years ago from Rice Creek, is impressive at 20 x 15 feet (many lower branches have had to be removed to keep it in bounds). It is always covered in blooms each spring, in fact its first year of bloom occurred after a winter where its flower buds survived consecutive nights of -43, -44, and -40 degrees.

Magnolia denudata grew from 2 feet to 8+ feet in 5 years but succumbed to the Winter From Hell (WFH) 2 years ago, about the time it was to become flower producing size. Of course,we have to try this again.

A Cornus kousa tree added 4 years ago did very well until 2 years ago when it suffered some die back and root death, and continued to have dieback the past two winters. This summer there was good regrowth, and even some good fall color.

From a small plant, a Cornus florida rubra tree did very well, rapidly growing to 5 feet with a few flowers and good dark red fall color; unfortunately, it was planted in too low of an area and succumbed, we think, to root rot after a particularly wet spring 2 years ago. We hope to try one of the newer, supposedly hardier cultivars.

A B&B cornus from the "Constellation" series, "Stellar Pink", purchased in Wisconsin is now about 10 feet tall after 2 years, shows beautiful growth, and has sustained no winter damage. No flowers as of yet.

Chameocyperus nootkenensis glauca pendula, obtained as a small own root plant from Forest Farm 4 years ago is still a small plant. A B&B plant purchased two years ago from a Twin Cities nursery, grafted onto thuja rootstock, is about 8 feet. It has significant leaf dieback on the upper half, and we are hoping it will recover.

We also have several Japanese maples that we grow in ground with winter protection, including a very large (for our zone) atropurpurea, "Crimson Queen", "Ukigamo" (very fast growth), "Shaina" (has shown some tendency to revert to "Bloodgood"-like growth at the tips), "Beni sischihenge", "Inabe Shidare", and others grown from seed. We had a 6 foot tall "Garnet" which never recovered from the WFH and died completely this past spring. An acer circinatum seedling has survived 2 winters and is troubled more from rabbits than the cold.

Kate and Dave

Our climate here in southern Finland is similal to yours(USzone 4a).So it´s very interesting to follow this forum.I have noticed many species here which are hardy in my garden and you consider uncertain there.And vice versa.

Karij, welcome! I'm curious to know what your lowest winter temperatures are there in southern Finland. I don't know this for certain, but my guess is that you may have somewhat warmer winters than Minnesota, but cooler summers that don't allow certain plants to harden off as well.

I just got home from a gardening seminar, and 1 of the speakers said something very interesting. She's from the Cities, and was talking about the effect of the concrete and all with the effect of raising your zone. You probably already knew that, but I didn't know it raised it a whole zone.

Maybe you've all heard this - she said that a few years ago, the Horticultural Society changed the hardiness zone map - so zone 3 has move really far north. She said they weren't allowed to post this because of the current administrations stance on global warming. So the hardiness zone maps, that I've been looking at anyway, are all out of date.

All I know is I do best with zone 3 plants.

Yes, Welcome Karij! You may even find someone who speaks a little Finnish here. Back in the late 1800's/early 1900's, quite a lot of Finnish people immigrated to Northern Minnesota. Me, well my Grandparents are from Slovenia.

Cassiope, I don't think the heat island effect that you speak of extends past the "island" itself (central metro area). Not that I don't disagree with the zone line change. Actually, I think it's entirely possible, but a bit premature.

Rick

Rick,

I was curious, and this of course is nothing but an idle search. However I did find the 2003 hardiness zone map. I'd post it but I'm not sure if it's o.k. It came off of a Colorado State Extension site. It does look quite different.

Kate,
Thanks so much for posting your list. That's a very impressive list, BTW.

Is your 'Leonard Messel' magnolia fragrant? Or, are the flowers fragrant enough so you can smell the flowers when you are near the tree or do you need to put your nose right into the flowers to smell them?

I'm afraid that this winter is going to be another WFH winter.

I have my fingers crossed.
Mike

Thanks.You are right,Stefan.Our winters are not so cold any more.Twenty years ago we had last really cold one,about -40.This winter has been exeptional warm,rain almost all the time.Summers may have reasonable warm in Finland,even many weeks heat waves,but summer is not so long as in Minnesota.However I grow many North American oaks and pines and still they are ok.

Rick. I visited last October Slovenia and I was very delighted with the country and people.Slovenia is really the hidden treasure of Europe.I renew my visit this April,because golf season is started allready there and Bled has one of the most charming couses in the whole Europe.
Yeah.I have met many finnish speaking persons in Minnesota.
I visited Duluth many times,because my daughter studied there some years ago playing hockey at UMD.

Oh yes Kate, that is a knockout list. You even have a few things I would never have tried.
Rick

I'm new to this area and planting. However, I love the look of Winterberry Winter Red. I have seen it zoned at 3 but mostly 4. Does anyone know if this would survive. I am "officially" in z4 but really temps fall into z3. Maybe they take snow coverage into consideration? I am just south of the Manitoba border in ne Dakota not far from the Minnesota border. Thanks

Lesley, this is such a long thread now, first I need to make sure you are talking about Ilex verticillata, a deciduous holly.

It is more difficult to zone push woody plants as opposed to perennials. On the other hand, so many have never been tried in colder zones that you just don't know. Realize also that any holly is either male or female, and you must have at least one of each to get any berries on a female plant at all.

Now, most Ilex verticillata cultivars(named varieties) are from more southerly or easterly regions. In otherwords less hardy zones. This holly likes very moist conditions. In the wild they grow in acid soils at the edge of, or in swamps. If you can't provide ample moisture and acidity, it will also affect winter hardiness. Then there is also the problem of males and females blooming at the same time. As cultivars are from different parts of the country this can be a problem. If you think you want to try them, I have a chart of which males will bloom compatibly with which females. Email me for info.

Ilex verticillata can definitely be hardy with the right genetics. I have seen wild populations growing 3 miles south of Canada in Minnesota.

Rick

I just bought a house last December, and being a garden nut, and wanting to always have that which is not hardy here I tried streching some fun things. (what a bad year for it huh?) However reading Kate and Dave's luck with Cornus kusa makes me feel better about mine. Has anyone grown Parrotia persica? I would like to know if anyone has had good or bad luck. I also have planted two needle palms.... up until the -20's (which I have convinced myself has not acctually happened and everything is still alive and good to go)they looked really good. I have them in a cage of leaves and thinsulate. I also have planted 10 Musa basjoo..... which I have a little less hope for but you never know. I am a wholesale perennial grower so I got them for cheap and will keep on trying them. Has anyone gotten any really different perennials to make it, I am really curious. After reading about peoples experiences with Calluna and Erica I am considering pulling them from my line, however I have heard of beautiful heather gardens in Winter Wisconsin....never been there though. All I know is I planted 2 in my garden and they aren't looking so hot. Funny the palms look great, but the Heathers terrible.

I developed a black raspberry that thrives here in North Central Minnesota and typica;;y sell about 1,000 plants per year. Now I'm working on developing a peach and am having successes.

I'd be interested to hear more about that - are you actively crossing cultivars and/or wild fruits, or are you selecting seedlings to achieve your new varieties?

I grew a Parrotia persica 'Select' and a Parrotia persica (straight species). They were in good rich garden soil, pH 7. The species lasted 4 years. 'Select' lasted 6 years. Both were slow growing (2-3 inches a year). Neither ever exhibited fall color, not even a hint.

I have a friend who said he was going to experiment with growing banana as a perrenial. Don't know which species, I assume it was basjoo. Hopefully I'll see him at the Home and Garden show tomorrow. I'll ask him about it.

I think Calluna's are tough to grow, but not necessarily so with Erica's. I grew Erica carnea (Springwood Pink, I think) for 5 years. I was definitely a favorite plant. Because it bloomed SO early, it bloomed for at least two months. Then I had to transplant it and it immediately died. Better believe it when the books say they don't like transplanting.

Jfruth, I too am interested in anything you have to say about your fruit breeding endeavors. What parentage are you using, for example. Start a new thread. I think everyone's interest would be piqued.

Rick

Out of zone, hmmm. Well here's what immediately came to mind -- this is in zone 5, northern lower Michigan:

calla lilies -- middle of backyard by bird bath, no protection/shelter or special treatment of any kind [matter of fact, when I dug these up to reposition, one corm was the size of a small grapefruit/large baking potatoe -- gave that one away to a friend of mine]

Glads [not the types sold as 'hardy'] -- along house in raised bed as well as out back by shed

dusty millers [typical 'annual' variety from local box stores]-- have some that are over 8 years old [not reseeds] now best success in raised bed, but also in yard under red maple and out back by edging birdbath bed, no mulch

snapdragons [not reseeds] -- some of these are 3 or 4 years old along house as well as under red maple, no mulch [mature plants do tend to die out after a few years]

dahlia -- a few have survived in raised bed for several years

anemone decans -- only a couple have survived, didn't realize when I bought them that they weren't actually hardy for my zone : (

Have had a canna come back a couple of years running up against the house in a raised bed

I've decided I'm going to try planting a couple of small fig (Ficus carica) trees next to my house on the south side.

I know I'll have to bundle/wilt-pruf/cover/wrap/mulch/insulate like mad, but since my figs can take very cold weather when wrapped and overwintered in an attached but unheated garage (and I mean the dirt/soil frozen rock solid!, temps down to zero) I want to see if well protected and heavily mulched, if they couldn't in fact survive a winter outside.

My garage has gotten a lot colder than the absolute minimum temperatures that I've read even the hardiest fig can survive....

I'll have to keep them pruned small (more like fig 'bushes') but after endless discussions in the Fig Forum on chill time, and just how cold fig trees (root systems) can survive overwintered in garages, basements, etc., I'm going to give it a shot. I've found a source that claims their figs are hardy when protected to zone 5/6 (Brown Turkey) I will continue to overwinter all my other more 'delicate' figs in the garage.

So, this years 'zone-stretching' experiment is going to be a couple of small Brown Turkey Fig trees! (And if you've never had a fresh ripe fig, you have NO idea the bliss you've missed!).

When I was in Columbus, OH I heard of people growing Brown Turkey as a die back perennial outside. I never thought our growing season would be long and warm enough to get any ripe fruit. But you have?

What other species of "hardy" fig have you been playing with?

Rick

I have a 'Brown Turkey' fig in a pot and I get figs on it, but I never know when they are ripe, so I've never eaten any of them.

I guess I'll have to take some cuttings and try one of them outside on the south side of my house.

So, how do you tell when a fig is ripe?
Thanks,
Mike

I have a Brown Turkey-type clone ('Hardy Chicago', allegedly) that has survived easily outside for many years, but... since it dies back so heavily - to the ground without protection, leaving up to a foot or more of live wood with enough heaped over it - it has never once tried to set fruit. I thought it might since ones I saw in Chicago seemed to be doing just that, fruiting on new wood from the base. I've since hacked off a piece to grow in a pot, but even then the fruit never seems to get quite ripe enough to eat. Once it reached a point where it seemed so, it lifted off the plant easily and had a relatively good color, but I found the inside bland (kind of like corn syrup, but not as good) and the tender skin left a slightly soapy or metallic flavor in my mouth. Not terribly pleasant! I can't imagine the fruit could have ripened on the plant any more, though.

I grew up/lived (Turkey and South Carolina) in areas where fig trees were common (we had them in the back yard, etc.) so I've been going through fig withdrawal until recently when I decided to go the potted fig tree route.

Sweetness of the fruit is (from what I've read/been told) determined by growing conditions (they like long, warm, sunny summers) and, like other fruiting tree/plants, it can vary with the individual tree itself. I know I have two dwarf apple trees, same variety, etc., and you can tell the difference (one is sweeter, the other is more 'mushy'). Then there's the 'dark' fig versus 'light' fig debate...some claim the darker figs have a more intense flavor -others prefer the lighter (so called 'white') figs.

Last year was my first full year of going the potted fig tree route and I was actually surprised with how much fruit even some (but not all) of these 'baby' trees put out. I have several varieties and it varied with varities... My favorite (so far) was a Strawberry Battaglia (or Verte)...The Italian Honey was also very good. My Celeste & Brown Turkeys seemed to go from good to downright bland. I'm hoping this year to give them a longer, more optimal growing condition-I got a Harbor Freight greenhouse late last fall as a birthday present and didn't have time to put it up. I'm going to put it up and either use that or a temporary plastic sheeting 'hoop house' to help them get a jump on the growing season (and might use it to extend the season as well).

Surprisingly enough I don't have a Chicago Hardy...I got one from Edible Landscaping last year (I was surprised at how puny it was, especially for the price!) and it was stressed when I got it and never really recovered. My favorite places for figs are Burnt Ridge Nursery and Paradise Nursery.

Among the figs I have are:
Brown Turkey
Celeste
Italian Honey
Strawberry Battalgia (or Strawberry Verte)
Alma
Violette de Bourdeaux

I'm going to try to beat the 'die back' issue by wilt-pruf and wrapping in burlap and then basically surrounding the wrapped trees in a bin of mulch. Yah, I know, a lot of work *laughing*... And to think that when I was growing up I always considered the fig tree in the back yard to be a kind of nuisance, what with the mess caused by birds, dropping fruit and the swarms of japanese beetles it attracted!

As far as ripeness, I've always basically gone by touch...when they get really, really soft and feel like any minute they might drop off-that's when I pick them. I'd have to say the majority of my little figs didn't have time to ripen their fruit before the weather started getting cold.

Fig trees seeem pretty immune from most of the bug and disease issues ...only problems I've had were rabbits, squirrels and family members... Oh the coveting, the threats of violence, the deceptions (me?, you think I picked and ate those three ripe figs?) I guess the birds here in Minnesota don't know about the bliss of a ripe fig-which is fine with me, I supply them with plenty of elderberries, gooseberries, apples, pears, hansen and nanking cherries...they can leave the figs to me!

Again, this is going to be an experiment....I'm certainly no expert by a long shot...

I guess the subject says it all. If you read my profile, you can get a hint of what I am going through. What I really need right now is a good ground cover that can withstand a lot of abuse and smaller trees that have a deep taproot and no shallow roots to plant fairly close(10 ft or so) to the house and walkways. The house is sitting on a slope from the backyard to the street and I would like to have the front yard terraced to get rid of the grass that is hard to mow, that means I need to learn about gardening

Hi there Mimi,
Welcome to the MN GW forum! There are many great folks here who would love to help you with this question, but you might not get too many responces to your question here at the bottom of this "Zone stretching" post. You might try to start with a new posting with it's own title ( easy to find at the bottom of the MN forum) instead of posting a new question at the bottom of another (possibly) unrelated titled post. More folks could view it, and give you more help!!
Best to you,
Julie

Michele, what do you think would happen if you did this: instead of letting the majority of fruit go to pot because the season isn't long enough, what if you pluck all the later fruits off?

1. Would the remaining fruit just get larger and still need the same number of warm days to ripen?

2. Or would the ripening be delayed because, with the fruits growing larger, it would take longer for the fruit to become stable in growth and begin the ripening process?

3. Or would the ripening begin earlier?

I suppose I should be asking this in the fig forum. Oh well.
Rick

Leftwood... I haunt the Fig Forum on a daily basis....
I've not brought up my 'experiement' on overwintering a fig outside here in zone 4 on that forum since I know they tell me I was crazy and wasting my time for even trying....

Since figs don't ripen after they've been picked-it's best to leave them on the tree as long as possible.
The longer/warmer the 'growing' season the more likely you are to get figs to ripen, and get sweeter figs at that. This is why for my 'potted' figs I am going to try to extend the season as long as possible (give them an early start inside and hoop-house them in the fall as long as possible).

I suspected that would be true for the picked unripe fruit, but how do you think thinning out the younger fruit would affect the ripening of the older fruit left on the tree?

Here is an update:

VVGarden,

I had a needle palm that appeared to make it through last winter, but died in early summer. I brought back a "huge" specimen from FL and will plant it this spring. I am also experimenting with Musa basjoo and Ficus carica...

Here are some nice surprises:
Abies pinsapo 'Glauca' - in container, only a few leaves for protection (not foliage) minimal needle burn
Cedrus libani ssp. stenacoma - completely perfect, not a brown needle (upside down garbage can for protection)
Pinus rigida x taeda - no protection, no damage
Magnolia virginiana - no protection, mostly defoliated, but still green stems to the tips and some leaves retained where protected by snow

Still too early to tell:
Nothofagus antarctica (prostrate form) - dead leaves, but shoots look o.k.
Pinus sabiniana - many brown needles
Pleioblastus 'Aureovariegata'

Jason,
I'll be surprised if your Magnolia virginiana leafs out this spring. I had the cultivar 'Wilson' (trade name Moonglow) that is supposed to be hardy to zone 4, but the plant never leafed out. The plant looked great except for the loss of most of the leaves. The stems were still green and the buds looked great, too, but the plant never pushed any new growth and I waited until the end of June before I pulled the plant out.

You'll need to let us know if the plant leafs out this spring.

My two Sequoiadendrons have a little winter-burn on them, but I think they are going to make it through the winter! I may have to plant one in the ground this spring just to see what happens. I think I need to plant one of these two plants where the ground will stay fairly dry during the winter.
Mike

planted two years ago. Survived a tougher winter last year and this winter was relatively mild. It does lose all it's leaves and looks raggy but I'm hoping the flowers will be worth it.

Does anybody in Zone 4 have a Fothergilla 'Blue Mist'?

Fothergilla is a rabbit magnet of mega watt proportions in my yard. I finally gave up.

I have Fothergilla 'Mt. Airy' in my garden and I have not had any hardiness problems at all.

I had the plant in a pot for two years before putting the plant in the ground and the plant displayed great fall color while in the pot, but since putting the plant in the ground, the fall color has been nonexistent. The plant does have nice spring flowers.

I also have ALL of my plants surrounded with chicken wire to thwart the evil bunnies, which number in the millions. (Where's a coyote, or two, or fifty, when you need them?) I could not have a garden without the chicken wire. The chicken wire doesn't look the greatest, but the chicken wire allows me to purchase and plant small plants that would otherwise be destroyed by the bunnies. Last fall I forgot to protect my Tsuga canadensis 'Palomino' and this spring the plant is gone - just a stub with a couple of small branch "nubbins". The little 12" plant had been in my garden (in the ground) for approx. 8 years and the bunnies wiped it out, probably, overnight.

On a positive note, I now have some open real estate to plant something else!
Mike

I just ordered a 'Mt. Airy' this weekend, being unsure about the 'Blue Mist', although it always sounds so good in the catalogs. Mike, how large has your 'Mt. Airy' gotten? (I too, have lots of hardware cloth cylinders.) My katsuras (2) are covered with leaf buds, as is parrotia persica, and magnolia 'Elizabeth' has big fat flower buds -- all 4 planted last year.

Can I cry too, Mike? I was just at my parent's where I use to garden. My Tsuga canadensis 'Minima' of 21 years - every bit of bark, eaten away. On the plus side? Well it will make a very interesting skeleton. I'll have to think about that some more.
Rick

Rick,

I'm so sorry to hear that. What a bummer!

I feel bad because my plant was 8 years old and just a youngster, but your plant had reached legal drinking age and then was cut down (sorry for the pun) in its prime.

I would be furious if I lost a plant that old.

My dad has been killing the bunnies in his yard with a BB gun. I wasn't aware that a BB gun could kill ANYTHING, but apparently that's not true.

I'm going to get me a BB gun and go bunny hunting! (said with a back-woods accent) (o:).

Not that I could even make a dent in the bunny population (which numbers in the millions, I'm sure), but getting rid of the bunnies that feed in my yard will sure make me feel better.
Mike
(OK, my head is covered and I'm ready for the onslaught of hate remarks because of my intention to kill the bunnies. Keep in mind that there are no natural predators to help keep the bunny population in check, in the city).

Mike,

Yes, BB guns can kill rabbits. So can a swift shovel to the head, if you can get close enough to suprise them, and young ones can be stomped to death quite easily. I had a young rabbit fall into my water garden last summer--I couldn't let him drown, so I fished him out with a rake and gave him to the dog to eat. The dog and I were both happy.

If a rat or mouse were eating prized plants, most people would not think twice about dispatching them to rodent heaven. Rabbits are simply cuter members of the rodent clan, only way more destructive. I think true gardeners who think killing them is wrong must be limited to those who do not suffer devastating losses from them season after season. Each year it seems previously untouched plants becomes a target.

If any "bunny lovers" want to send me hate mail, I would prefer you to come and live trap them, take them home to your gardens and let them hedonistically eat and destroy them, you are quite welcome to do so. Otherwise, the BB gun, the shovel, the dogs, and the boot (not to mention a lot of fencing) are the only way I know to take care of/fend off those fat rats with short tails and wiggling noses.

If you can think of any other methods Mike (maybe you should email me privately!), I'd love to hear them.

Kate

Where I am at, in Sauk Rapids, Mn I have a large Sassafrass Tree outside the window in front of me.

It had four trunks, one dead, when I moved-in, and now it lost another to trunk rot last summer.

I probably should have let the suckers grow as I have been fighting them for twenty years, but now I'll probaly wish I had not.

I have been wanting to plant Tulip Tree at my ma's house in Hutchinson, but I do not want to start with a little whip, and have not been able to find a nursery north of the Mason-Dixon line that sells large trees.(I did find one,almost north, and it would not have been cheap, but I could not find a way to ship one large tree.)
Do any of you know of any?

I almost bought a larger, not large, Sequoia, from out west, but is it possible to get on to survive the winter in Hutch?

I want a fast growing, or exotic tree, for ma's yard, but finding a nursery not 500 miles away is hard.
I will pay large shipping fees (to a point), but as I said, they do not ship one tree.
I want something, probably out of zone, but not a little sapling.
Any ideas?
Bob

PS--My first choice would be a English Oak(no problem with hardiness there)but I am not planting it for my children, I want to see a "TREE" before I die, and unless I live to be 199,that is not likely starting with anything less than 2+ inches in diameter, but something like a Sessile Oak would be far more interesting due to rareness.

I wouldn't bother with Sequoia. They are grown here in coastal Massachusetts with some success. The largest ones locally I have seen are very very old and probably 50-60 feet tall--pretty tiny for a Sequoia. SO they grow slowly here and our climate in winter is very damp and cool, and we normally do not have any sub-zero temperatures. Sequoia do not like extremely cold, dry, windy weather, which is certainly common during MN winters. So even if it does survive, watching it grow would be a painfully slow process and it sounds like you want a large tree sooner rather than later.

Mike: Just wondering if you received and planted your M. Grandiflora "24-Below" this spring. I can't wait to hear how it works out for you. I've been meaning to ask you if "24-Below" is the official name of the cultivar? The two varieties sold here at local nurseries are the Bracken Brown Beauty and Edith Bogue. I think I mentioned to you some time ago that I have a "large" (10 feet) Bracken Brown and I just planted a small Edith Bogue this spring for a comparison. I have read that the Edith Bogue is claiming to be the hardiest cultivar (to -24, so is your plant really an Edith Bogue????). Also, after checking out some old specimens of both in my area, I have noticed that the Edith Bogue has a much more stiff branching structure so it holds up better to heavy wet snow. So if you try another, I would go with Edith Bogue.

Well, I don't live in Minnesota(I was looking through the site and found this thread interesting). I live in Chicago, zone 5b.But I do have a pretty interesting circumstance. I've gotten a canna to survive the Chicago winters. Well I think it was kind of an accident,but I planted some cannas at my parents house(I do a lot of my gardening there,as they have a large yard,well large compared to my city-postage stamp yard anyway). My mothers main garden is off of the south-facing wall of the house, and that is where I planted the canna. It was near the wall and there is a row of bricks between the garden and the foundation of the house. I think the canna grew underneath the bricks to the wall,as the space is to small for me to plant a rhizome there, and I dont remember trying to stick one in there. This was about four years ago,maybe five and the thing is still coming up every year. I was amazed when it came back the first year. So was my mother. I've heard they are hardy to zone 7,so it appears that my moms south wall garden is a couple of zones higher that the rest of the area. I tried that here,at my apartment building. Didn't work. But a couple of blocks away there is a school with tons of cannas sprouting up as we speak! They are along the south and east facing walls. Go figure. I also couldn't get a musa basjoo to survive this winter and they are supposed to be hardy here. Ditto with a passiflora incarnata and a Chinese ground orchid. I've heard variously that they are either to zone 5 or 6,so I figured if cannas could survive here somehow,I could get them to. I guess I was wrong, although I think I want try again. I wonder if my garden is more exposed and if I didn't mulch deeply enough. It was also mildy cool and wet this January,so I wonder if they rotted.
I'm tempted to try an 'Edith Bogue' magnolia and try my luck with a mimosa tree. But they are trees and I dont really have a place to put them.
Brian

Rick, are you sure you are not incorrectly using the term "genotype" more as what a "phenotype" is? The genotype is the complete genetic material--whether expressed or not. The phenotype is what is actually expressed. I am also not sure if you are familiar with "ecotype" either.

Although I agree with your comment about genetic adaptation taking time, the Fraxinus example can still be problematic in that regionally, a gene for cold hardiness for the tree may not be typically expressed in Georgia populations, and thus would perish in Minnesota. Although the gene IS in the Georgia ash trees, it can be turned off in that population (an ecotype); and thus, if a tree in Georgia was moved to MInnesota, it is quite possible it would perish if that specific tree does not have the gene completely turned on to create the proteins, blah blah to ensure harsher winter survival ability. A terrific example of the ecotype is Acer rubrum. A FLorida native ACer rubrum will FAIL survival in a MInnesota and a MN native Acer rubrum will perish if planted in Florida. Same genotype, different phenotype (as a definite ecotype within the species).

In another example, it is recommended to not secure woody plant materials far out of your cold hardiness range. Every plant in a species is similar, but still has terrific genetic variation possibilities. Forsythias, for example, grow in a nursery in Tennessee may not have the same caliber of cold hardiness all across the number of plants. If there are 10 forsythia plants at a nursery in Nashville, they will all survive that zone 7 winter, but, it is very possible that 3 of those forsythias do not have the "cold hardiness gene for survival below -10", and thus, those particular plants WOULD perish in Minnesota, but still survive in Tennessee. If these 10 plants always grew in Tennesee, one would never know which truly was the hardy since they would not be naturally selected/killed off by an unlike -10 event there.

In Human Terms--we all have hte SAME GENOTYPE (except those with true genetic abnormalities such as XXY, XO, etc), but the PHENOTYPE is different. The phenotype is what is physically expressed. I can guarantee that I have the same 99.99% genetic code in me as anyone on this board; BUT I likely will have some expressed gene here and there that will predispose me to a certain medical/deliterious condition as someone else may be totally protected from it because their code is expressed in their body so that they are immune.

I also recall much uncertainty in human genetics from university coursework about the simple "genotype" as you put it, regarding the races. We all have the code to be very darked skinned or havea different shaped eye, etc. It's through developmental factors by the genes of hte parents, perhaps selected through adaptations that the PHYSICAL (phenotype)is different, but the genotype (the inherihent code of that species) is the same.

Perhaps we are making the same point but with a different perspective. I even am confused now with my point--am I supporting your comment now or acutally arguing against it! ;) I didn't read your paper, it sounds as if it's conifer genetics.

My point is the use of genotype versus phenotype (which I think you made a personal definition) and also the reality of ecotypes.

Just curious

My best example is a star jasmine. I did a MN flip on it, buried it with the roses. We did it on a lark, we couldn't get it in the house it was so big (grow it in a whiskey barrel half). Sure enough, when spring sprang, and I chipped my bushes out of the ground, I planted the jasmine and away she went!! Now, in case you didn't know, star jasmine is a zone 8 - 10 plant, who occasionally handles zone 7...

There was this large plant, ok, mammoth pretty much covers it, in the wooded display garden at rice creek nursery (which closed down this past summer) that resembled a Gunnera. The sheer size of the planting makes me believe it was impossible that they were newly planted year after year. So, either it's a freak of nature, a gunnera cultivar or something just like it that is hardy up here in Minnesota. Any ideas? They were just too huge!! I've got to have them. :)

Sorry to drop in uninvited, but I did live in Minnesota for 30 years and I know exactly what trooperchix is talking about cuz I used to make pilgrimages out to Rice Creek Gardens.

The plant is Petasites japonicus var. giganteus (Giant Butterbur). From Japan obviously. Wants real moist soil to waterside conditions. Allegedly VERY aggressive which is why I never tried it.

BTW we do zone stretching down here too. Except it's people desperately trying to grow hostas, peonies and "northern" plants. Aren't we gardeners something else?!

Good gardening,
Monica

Hey Rick, I myself am extremly impressed in what you're growing, being I live in zone 4 here in Warren,MN. But I have mentioned as well I'm interested in growing two types of palms on my property, the Sable minor palm, also known as the McCurtain palm; McCurtain palm which is native to McCurtain county of Oklahoma, and although they get pretty cold down there, but not like what we get up here; and those palms down there survive with cold, snow; and freezing temps as well, but then again, not to the extent and severity of what we get up here. and there is the Needle palm, Rhapidophyllum hystrix which has been known to survive down to minus -25F below zero, so you just cant help and wonder, if this palm can survive these extreems, then why not up here in the microclimates of northwestern MN? let me know what you think, and other sub tropicals amongst other plants that aren't tropical, but has a tropical look to them as well. I have heard that some Hellboris are pretty hardy up here as well. Hit me back, and happy gardening in any weather. Merry Christmas to you all as well

I once grew peanuts as a vegetable crop just for laughs. They grew, they produced peanuts-but not very succesfully. So I gave up on trying to grow things where they don't belong. I'm quite happy to let those folks down in Alabama grow peanuts while I can enjoy things like Echinacea up here.
BTW-I had a nice conversation with sombody in Seattle once and she related what happens to Echinacea there-it grows and grows and grows and then flops over and still grows. It never gets a freeze back in order to rejuvenate itself.

Well I've been known to be wrong many times, but frankly, Palmlover, I don't think palms have a prayer up here. Obviously, -25F in, say, Kansas, is not the same as -25F in the Twin Cities here, let alone in Warren. But, anything that would grow back from roots might be a good possibility, like the most cold hardy banana (and heavily mulched over winter). Pawlonia tomentosa is definitely a fun one without mulching. It's a tree that dies back to the ground here, but resprouts with more vigor that a cut down willow. Established ones will easily grow twelve feet in a season with very large leaves too. However usually, the sprouts don't branch, so you might want to let several grow. Another one to try is Magnolia tripetala - 2 foot leaves, and if you happen on the right seed source, it could be completely hardy even for you. Protect the trunk in winter from frost cracking. They are susceptible.

Simple to grow and very tropical looking is the annual Castor Bean (Ricinus sp.). And if you have moist or wet areas, petasites and its relatives will look quite tropical. You also might have fun with the very large growing grasses like Sporobolus wrightii. Or there is a very large growing species of Inula (flower) too, although it doesn't have large leaves.

Palmlover, see here:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/farnorth/msg1211132530111.html?5

It just might be EXACTLY what you've been looking for.

I just ordered a chocolate mimosa tree, and I am wondering how this will do in a container, or if I am too far north to plant in ground. I live in the Cincinnati, Ohio area (Northern Kentucky). I want to make sure this will survive. I do not want to make an expensive mistake. If it cannot handle the winter, I thought I would put it in a container and then bring it out of the cold. I would rather leave outdoors, but I'm not absolutely sure about it's hardiness here. Any thoughts, Susan